Krell

Hello We dont call that style "minimal" that much anymore - What you are looking for is "progressive" - Which is trance music with not that many sounds and layers - More focus on the progression in percussion, bassline etc than on the melodies, climaxes and riffs. To get you started I suggest you checkout all the releases from Iboga Records - Check out the samples here http://www.psyshop.com/shop/CDs/ibo/ and find out what sounds you like the most and buy them. To learn more about that sound, check out the compilations on the label and when you find a track by an artist you like do a search on the websites for other releases from that artist. (this way you can find similar labels and sounds) This is the way I do it when I try to learn a new sound, and its very effective since the one who finds the music is you, and to you only your taste matters. Also, you are still exploring music for yourself, without other peoples definitions and limitations. Best Wishes Krell

Exactly ! :-) I think the 604 list was even worse - It became more of a politics and enviromentalist mailinglist at some point - then I quit. At least there are moderators on the web forums :-) The way I see it, people get mad because they feel strongly about certain things - Often when I feel myself getting mad and very harsh with people I know I have to take some time off debating on the internet... It can get quite frustrating at times, especially if you spend a lot of time doing it. We fear what we dont understand(or not being understood) - fear leads to anger and anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering (So says yoda, thus are the ways of the force) :-) The fact that the psychedelic community strives for balance, awareness, spirituality and many other things doesnt mean it has achieved it. Best Wishes Krell

You are absolutely right - I dont see myself as perfect, that is what Im trying to say. The values which I connect with the psychedelic culture/lifestyle are things I strive for to promote in myself and others + my surroundings, but - its harder to achieve in pracsis compared to just writing about it. I think its important that I mention that I also have my flaws when I moralize over other peoples actions... It should be clear that I include myself as one of those who also needs to understand and improve. For the reasons you mention, I think elitism is natural - In the end, it might become an individual thing - Thinking you are better than others... It probably does serve a purpose since it makes you put yourself and your decision making abilities above others in effect giving you the motivation and basis for telling others how to proceed and conduct themselves. (So, elitism is probably likely to have good justification - If you think you are better at something than others, you are most likely good at it, or better than most people - If in fact you are better than the ones you are overruling is not a safe bet, but it will be tested). Misplaced elitism is then the problem. Thinking you are better than others, while you really are not. Or, is elitism at all relevant in a given situation and why ? In the case of music, its so subjective that perhaps elitism is not always as relevant there... "My taste is better than yours, so even you you think it tastes like shit, please eat it - I know best" :-) In the case of old and new - It can get annoying to hear people get elitist about something because it is new to them, having them tell you that it is better than what you yourself like at the time. I dont ever really trust people who change on a plate, one day they like full on, the next its progressive - It, for me, points to tremendous shifts within their personality... If they feel that way about music, how do they feel about other aspects in their life ? :-) I Like predictable people heheh. *smiles* Krell

Well spoken :-) This is the core of the matter. I started out listening to house before I ever heard a Goa Trance track. Different kinds even. Also minimal, electro - shit I even listened to dance :-) New for the psy scene YES, new for the electronic scene NO. @sherlockalien I agree - Its not whether music is new or old that matters, its whether its good or bad. Most of the time in these discussions, who ever thinks something is good will automaticly think its "new" and "fresh", even though the stuff has been lying around for years in other genres. The main path of innovation for the artists who perform within the psychedelic scenes goes through making crossovers into other genres - Or actually, starting to produce other genres completely with psychedelic trance influences (or basicly a psytrance background). In essence, this creates mainly innovation within other genres than psytrance as such. Which is FINE, since other producers also get fed up with house and start producing progressive psy for instance. (It flows in both directions, the psychedelic scene is just OBSESSED with not dying, basicly since it is so much more than just music for many of us, it worries us). Something that annoys me is when people start to become psy elitist "this is not psy", which only proves their ignorance as to the values of the goa scene (however, I cant refuse that somestimes I become like that myself - So, it IS a natural thing, elitism). PsyMusic is FREE and genres as such are of NO USE when they pose limitations on musical and artistical freedom. What makes the psy scene what it is, is exactly that, freedom & openess. If those values are betrayed by imposing rules on what music can and cannot be played witin the PsyCulture then the quintessential values of freedom and the promotion of an alternate reality to established norms of society which form the core of the Goa Scene / Psy philosophy have been betrayed.... and by doing so, the PsyCulture itself has strayed off its "base" and as such is nothing more but a fake/cheap imitation/look alike of what once was. It will then no longer be home to the true psychedelic culture, whose people will find newer and greener pastures after they run off covering their noses like other people do from the smell of rotting meat! The basis of this argument is to be found in the fact that essentially the psychedelic way concerns alternate realities, breaking the rules, not conforming to reality etc. If you make rules that "this is psy", then you have conformed to a reality which stipulates just that - and as such, its really not psychedelic anymore. Of course, there is more to the scene than just that - But, in regards to the music it matters a lot that it reflects the mindset of the people within the culture - And THIS is what makes it special, and not that you call it "psytrance" and create it by some definition which has been commercially imprinted into peoples minds since the day of the first goa trance CD release on Dragonfly Records. Anyone who has had a true psychedelic experience knows that it is not something you control, it is something you adapt to and go with. Such is the psychedelic music, you surrender to it and follow it.... There is good and bad psychedelic music, which again depends on who is listening. To some its Kindzadza, to others its Chris Micali - some even find both psychedelic depending on the situation. Trance is for me a psychedelic experience - Takes me out of reality as such, gives me something new - Ergo, if its trance inducing, its psychedelic. Best Wishes Krell

Yeah, the artist one 3D vision should be full on, unless its actually chillout ;-) They release that as well. No matter what, I think its a lineup with different kinds of music, not just full on or progressive. But admit it, you wont be happy unless its all progressive anyway heheh. I think, the BIG questionmark regarding the lineup is the DJs - They will hopefully play longer 2-3 hour sets at least (or even more) - So, they could in the end be responsible for a lot of the festivals sound. DJs dont get that much exposure, and I dont know that many of them. Best Wishes Krell

93% Full On ? Well - I did a favour for you and did a count - Im just putting things in very general boxes, and I believe some are bordering between full on and progressive - However, CPU and Andromeda/Chromosome are definately NOT in the same genre :-) Im not braking it up into more than those 2 genres - but the truth is the full on names also have different sounds to them as does the progressive ones. I count 23 Full On Artists and 10 progressive ones (I will then guess the artists I dont know follow that trend) - Anyway, far from 93% Full On - More like 69% Full On ;-) Some of the artists I didnt know that much, so I just didnt count them (Im guessing they will follow the trend in the lineup though). AZAX SYNDROM (3Dvision) IL Full On ABSOLUM (3Dvision rec ) FR Full On ALTOM (Neurobiotic rec ) FR Full On BROKEN TOY (Alchemy rec) AS Full On BURN IN NOISE ( Vagalume) BR Full On CPU (3Dvision rec ) FR Full On DAMAGE (Chemichal Crew) AS Full On DIGITAL TALK (Timecode) FR Full On DINO PSARAS (Chemical Crew ) UK Full On DOMESTIC ( HOMmega ) IL Full On E-JECT (Phonokol ) IL Full On HUJABOY (TIP World) IL Full On JOTI SIDHU (Neurobiotic rec ) UK Full On RINKADINK (Alchemy rec ) AS Full On SEQUIPA ( Alchemy rec ) BR Full On SHIFT (Timecode/Nexus ) AS Full On SILICON SOUND (Neurobiotic rec ) FR Full On SIRIUS ISNESS (Mind Control) ESP Full On SKULPTOR ( High End ) BR Full On TRIPTYCH (Turbo Trance/Soleadmusic) FR Full On WIZZY NOISE (Spun rec) GR Full On WRECKED MACHINES (Spun rec) BR Full On AUDIO CACTUS (Trade Sound) BR No Idea FIRST STONE (Vagalume ) BR No Idea HYPERCEPTIOHM ( Solar Flares) BR No Idea SINERGY (3Dvision ) FR/SWU No Idea VAZIK (Sounds of Earth / Spirit Zone) MX No Idea ANDRE ABSOLUT (Monobasic ) SWU Progressive ANDROMEDA (Millenium ) SWE Progressive CHROMOSOME (Turbo Trance ) SWE Progressive FITALIC (Sprout ) NL Progressive LIQUID SOUL ( Iboga rec ) SWU Progressive MOTION (Soleadmusic/Plastik Park) FR Progressive OXYD ( Plusquan / Vagalume) BR Progressive SAIKO POD (ACDC / Solstice Music) DK Progressive SOLEAD (Soleadmusic/ Automatic) FR Progressive TICON (Digital Structures ) SWE Progressive

I think it looks pretty good. We got slow progressive Fast Progressive Darker Full On / Psy Softer Full On / Psy But where are the chillout artists ? Best Wishes Krell

Haha how funny - I was just writing basicly the exact same thing in another danish forum. One of my friends, dj raider(3d vision), is playing at an infected mushroom party and complained because he would play nothing but IM killargh tracks normally and now all his track selection was gone (that was a joke of course). So, I told him he should bring a microphone and do a karaoke live vocal remix version of all their tracks instead :-) Someone must have hacked my brain - Guess it wasnt that hard afterall:-) Best Wishes Krell

I think Oforia / Tandu had some pretty full on ish releases around 1997 / 1998 http://www.discogs.com/release/89102 http://www.discogs.com/release/32948 First compilation release from 3D Vision marked the real beginning of the full on era for me http://www.discogs.com/release/123556 I myself didnt really start enjoying it before around 2001 or so (after I had gotten bored with all the progressive stuff). Best Wishes Krell

Hehe, your gonne beat me up ? Gonna feed me McDonalds food till I sucumb ? :-) I liked these tracks. D-Nox & Beckers "My Number One (T.N.T RMX)" Atmos "Raumwelt Signal(H.Cattaneo & J.Tonks RMX)" Influq "Joyride" If I dont remember they are abit along the same line - And I liked those. Mainly in "switch" its the lyrics I dont like. Best Wishes Krell

Theres lyrics in the track that people can identify with - also, its easy to spot the track at a party and start talking about it - Therefore it gets hyped :-) Like Eskimo "party pooper" or astral projection "people can fly" etc - Voice samples and singing make tracks recognisable - even better if you sample some pop or rock track, that way even more people can join in and perhaps even sing along (skazi). I dont like the electro house / trance thing either for the most part, but there are always exceptions - as for "Switch" I think it sucks. I dont think its that unique either, its just not that much what has been played within the psy scene so far. Hyper Hyper Krell

Thanks :-) Like a lot of them, just not the one with a mushroom in it. Mmm, the more detail the better :-) Thanks for the links Moni - Your the master :-) Best Wishes Krell

Wooow :-) Someone understands ! :-) *Amazed & Happy* Great way to start a new day :-) @The Journey Man Adapt your dancing - When you get old you will probably not even be able to walk, but you still might want to spin a few records :-) Best Wishes Krell

You need to make some more backdrops to relieve the stress - and you need to rethink your life, if you really like what you do when you are not making backdrops :-) Can we see some of your creations ? Please ? :-) Best Wishes Lreææ

Around 1993/94 I did a project with a friend at school - It was a musical project where we were to learn about electronic music and sum it all up for the class. That we did, and we went to our first trance/techno/house event as part of the ressearch... (very different event from what we see now). There was no real Goa Trance scene in our part of Denmark, and we decided to create one of our own. My friend worked at a cinema and we got a deal so we could use their area for events while they would actually sponsor a bit of money for us to create a budget... As it turned out, we managed to lease gear which would cost 60.000-70.000 Euro if we were to buy it.. So, we started out organizing true Goa Trance events using very high end gear at the age of 15 & 16. We Djed our selves at those events, since we had no connections what so ever and we bought everything that was released anyway (I think we were also up to the task from day one due to us having ressearched what this style of djing was all about, and regarding mixing basicly all goa djs didnt beatmatch back then and those who did sucked at it with VERY few exceptions like suzuki, shanti and so forth). So it began :-) Back in 1994/95. Now - I dont really have many friends who organize events, and mostly I am not popular with organizers because I often give very harsh critique concerning their events. Also, I run a community with another friend (www.electrobeat.dk) and I often have to moderate organizers doing commercials etc (anyone who has been a moderator knows you never get a mail saying "cool you deleted my spam") hehehe. The party scene here is very "either you are with us or against us" HARSH. So, - for the future I hope to get gigs abroad, and for national events I plan on arranging stuff for the community according to my own values which I believe in. This is also why I work with the community by making it a center piece for our local danish scene and thru that way affecting it positively (after all I feel a lot more dedicated and caring about the scene than many of the other players here - but thats my own not so humble opinion regarding myself) :-) My Djing has always been 50% own events and 50% other peoples events. I have basicly always been booked due to people meeting me online and acknowledging what I had to offer. In truth, the total amount of gigs I get is the same as a popular "know everybody" dj will get in a year, but it doesnt matter - DJing for me is an artform, and I am an artist - and its a personal quest of mine to become better at it. If people dont value music and good djing, I dont want to present my art to them anyway. Basicly - I have been fed up with the booking system in the Goa Culture for quite some time, but I cant change it... I often appeal to people with common sence (which is basicly also what I am doing now) to find new criteria for booking DJs other than whether they will book you back, bring deco, bring drugs, play for free or pay their own travel ticket or basicly perform other services than DJing. In short, it sickens me - and I think its something we need to abandon if we want art & quality within our events. Btw - Even though I practicly started out DJing from day one I always liked to dance on the dancefloor. If a DJ cannot go to a dancefloor and connect with it he/she has lost something very important (no matter if its in front or behind the decks). Being the dancer on the dancefloor is to me THE MOST IMPORTANT way of connecting with the dancefloor (its for me not about watching what happens while I spin, but understanding what happens when you spin). If I couldnt take part in the dancefloor experience I would not be able to understand it at all anymore. Most of my "reading the dancefloor" is done at home before ever going to the party and seeing it (but this is part of my style, which is individual - something people often dont get). So - In short - I get my gigs by means of qualification - I dont think I was ever booked for "a friends event", but I have often played at my own events. Best Wishes Krell

night or when Im tired and relaxed

It has been some time since I fellt the urge to open a new topic on the net - I didnt have anything worth writing. (perhaps some wont find this worth writing/reading either, to them I sincerely apologize beforehand and bid you welcome to laugh at my geekyness) :-) It is no secret that there has, for as long as I have been online(1996), been a negative attitude towards general trends and basicly everything that could be defined and talked about within the psychedelic scene. Some of those are today and were through the years. - MP3 Pirating. - DAT Pirating. - Too many labels. - Too many artists releasing (due to too many labels). - Complaints about low quality. - Greedy Organizers. - Greedy Artists. - Greedy Labels. - Untrustworthy Organizers. - Untrustworthy Artists. - Untrustworthy Labels. - Drugs(this is not an allowed topic of discussion on some sites, keep it in mind - stay on topic). - DJ Quality. - Event Quality. - Spirituality Yes / No. - Meaning Lacking / Irrelevant. - Genres / Music being defined and things becoming academic. - Artists going commercial. (producing stuff that is on par with "dance" and more commercial "house". Now - What I would like to hear about are the positive effects of those things - They might be direct as in "Its good to know if an organizer is very bad and threatens artists, so, at least we can spread the knowledge" or "there might be too many labels for a commercial market, but more music is being released and more artists are being heard". or They might be indirect like "MP3 is maybe bad morally because many people steal music and make themselves criminals, but in fact many more releases get heard by people and as such more people get hooked" or "there might be a lot of bad Djs out there, but at least generally people are becomming more aware and demanding in regards to DJs". So - Keep it positive - Even if you do not agree with each other - If you do not keep the discussion positive you have only prooved 1 thing, and that is you didnt read what I wrote or you didnt respect it anyway :-) I mean it, the intent is to focus on the good things instead of the bad things. Failure is there to learned from, so Im wondering what have we learned ? Also, what are we learning ? Feel free to add more categories of your own :-) But - Try to let people speak for themselves, even if you disagree (write something positive instead). And if this is just complete bullshit to you - Then please make sure your lame comment is at least funny ;-) Best Wishes Krell

Well, I didnt at all talk about label owners "stealing" bookings from artists - That was not in any way a part of my post. Dunno why you mention it :-) I dont know if that problem is only with new or small labels, or also with more established ones, actually - I dont know anything about it at all, so thats why I didnt mention it in my post. And, I think I did understands Detox´s point just fine :-) My point is, that its not up to Detox to decide who should start a label and why, what are the right or wrong reasons to him do not apply to everyone and Im pretty sure that if you ask the people behind the labels themselves they will say their existence and attempt at creation is justified. The ones who decide in the end are the consumers, thats the way the world works :-) Releasing music is most of all something commercial, so, those are the rules you follow (commercial ruleset). The customers decide success. Whining about the market is not going to help anything, the only way to get people to buy a product is through PR, price or quality... and if you are good in those areas, you will prevail (unless you have a no good business instinct). I would like to add, I dont see Detox as being a big whiner at all, Im just talking in general here - or else, I would have quoted Detox directly :-) But, there are "whining tendencies" which I dont appreciate that much, in general, in the scene, culture, market or whatever you want to call it. It takes money to get ANY business established, and as I gather from this thread any label releasing quality music will stand the test of time - So, are people whining about not earning enough money from their HOBBIES ? If so - I have a hard time taking that serious, and if they are really just in it for the money, I dont care about them anyway (even though I respect them, I dont care about their whining). Best Wishes Krell

I agree with you. Some of the best and most legendary labels were created so that the label owners themselves could release their own and their friends music because noone else would.. Nothing wrong with it... its their money & time, they can do what they want with it. People should stop whining and just face the competition, if they are so good compared to the others they should be able to destroy them like good business men do to each other. Besides, I think all label owners & personnel will talk badly about any label releasing music they dont like. I dont think there is a good argument to be made there. I personally think, the days were people buy music blindly are over. There are prelisten clips and they are more than enough to discard with shitty music. So, what sells sells - and whats mainstream will always sell the most copies. Of course, you can try and do something original, but keep in mind perhaps only 1 out of every 20 attempts at getting something original to succeed actually work out well - So, dont come whinning when the world doesnt support originality... its the price of art, and it should be calculated into the businessplan ;-) Best Wishes Krell

Tell me I won - I want to win so badly.... Come ooooooooooooooooon :-)

Depends on who you ask - When talking about the early to mid 1990s there is a factor called "the good old days" which shrouds peoples judgement. First Goa Trance release (pr definition) came 1993 by the first Goa Trance label Dragonfly Records. There were only very few releases, and as such very little competition. Around 1995-1997 the scene exploded due to a lot of media hype of the famous "goa style parties" which again led to more CDs being sold. Still, there were MUCH fewer releases back then as compared to now - Therefore the earnings aught to be better (there was no promotion effect from MP3, but there was a lot of promotion thru the media at the time). As far as professionalism goes - I think some of the crappiest music was released back then - Both within mastering and production as such. Badly cut off samples etc. I think there was a lot of was experimentation and openess - More pioneering spirit etc. Not so many people seemed to be in it for the money, or, having their primary focus put on making a living from psy. Also, I heard tales about labels not paying artists and stealing / modifying their tracks back then also. (just less labels, and less stories). Best Wishes Krell

Im guessing you sold 486 copies and lost around 800 Euros on the release (Nice initiative btw, and I will buy one no matter if I win or not:-) Best Wishes Krell

Yeah, i can see how that will put some added meaning to your statements (and justly so) - But, the question was whether the pricing is ok towards the end user, and not the payment of the artists featured on the CDs - and to that, I think we have to say "yes it is". My point of view on all this is also coloured by being a part of totally new labels... but for a lot of the CD releases (percentage wise) that is the reality - Lots of new labels :-) In any case, its not a good business by any standard (just releasing cds)... I also think, if it was in fact more commercially successful you would see more of the professionalism you have found out is missing in the scene. It all seems to be one big paradox in the real world "professionalism" vs "non commercialism". But for sure, there are too many scary stories about labels putting out music with no permission from artists etc. Still, we should not judge all labels by these things - if we do, we run the risk of destroying the foundation for the good labels who are usually the ones having to invest the most into their releases by playing by the rules. (Keep in mind, we are talking CD pricing here, which reflects directly on earnings). I see labels mostly as booking agencies and promotion channels for artists... and once they get up to a certain size they will need some income to keep it all going. Regarding payment, I think its better that an artist will get a certain amount of money up front for a track and no royalties (thereby having closed the deal) than all the other problems that often arise from unpaid royalties. After all, if the music is really good, the CD will promote it and the artist will get live gigs - Also, for the next tracks sold the price can go up, since for the label the "name" is worth more once it has a good reputation. (this also keeps the door more open to experimentation or new blood - not that it means that it is used like that at all though) Best Wishes Krell

I wrote "on average" - Some sell more, some sell less. Another factor of importance is if we are talking sales over a year or a shorter period, which is important when counting in how many CDs are initially produced and whether a release has to go into reprint. If you print 1500 CDs and only sell 500 you are at a loss, if you print 500 CDs and they are sold out you pass up on profits. Another thing you forgot in your calculations is taxes. Just because you turn a profit doesnt mean you get all the money thats left over, and definately not for personal use either. Last, where is your promotion costs ? If you want to sell 2000-3000 CDs you will need more promotion for your label that just posting a topic on online forums, ESPECIALLY if you are just starting up the label and havent build up a name (which is in itself an investment). Locally here in Denmark one of the better selling danish singing artists sold around 100.000 copies of his album in a country where there are 5.5mio inhabitants. I dont believe there is another market for that music since the lyrics are in danish. Thats a popular mainstream release targeted at only one country with so few people. Puts global Psytrance sales in perspective I think :-) We can conclude that we dont see that many psytrance label owners being very rich from what they do. Old time labels like Spirit Zone Records who had a very strong brandname disappears and their brand name is not bought by firms like Sony Music - Time Warner etc which really is the same as saying that there is not any profitable business in releasing psychedelic trance. Also, we have seen distributors crash while still owing labels. (thats how Flying Rhino, Spirit Zone and others went out of business). Which leads to a conclusion that its not really that profitable for the distributors either (unless they are good at keeping costs down as well as finding new ways of conducting their business - eventually meaning they are skilled business men/women). The Psychedelic Trance "market" as such goes up and down - but its not a healthy long term investment. And as such complaining about CD prices is pure nonsense. (if anything, we should have lower taxes on them from the governments etc). When moving releases from CD to online digital media (downloads) I think this whole business model will change dramaticly. However, for now - I think its very clear there is no big money to be earned, and anyone thinking that labels & distributors pricing is unfair just because they can sometimes turn in a minor profit need to do a reality check or invest some of their own hard earned capital into releasing music of their own (for isnt is everybodies duty in western society to earn as much cash as possible? hehe). Best Wishes Krell

CD Printing Copy Right Fees Fees for artist (or royalties) Payment for Graphics Payment for shipping Payment for mastering Payment for promotion in magazines. - The average psy release sells 500-1000 copies. I think, on average, it breaks even for the labels. Some will sell a bit less, some will sell more. CDs are promotion tools - the labels have very little influence on the retail price - Most likely the retailers will just earn more from a CD bought cheaper. CDs make artists known worldwide, and they will be more like to get booked around an album release etc. (thats where the money is). Whether the price is justified ? - Well.... Its no money making machine for the labels... to really answer the question you must ask yourself if you get an experience from the purchase which justifies the expense you had. Try to compare it with going to the movies, renting a movie, buying a movie - Or perhaps saving the money for a good hooker and getting a blowjob (you decide) :-) I like to do my calculations in lollipops - and for the price of ONE cd here in Denmark I can get between 100 and 150 lollipops... OR - I can get 3 Big Mac menus at McDonalds.... Mmmm... I can go to one medium sized psytrance party for the price of one CD. Best Wishes Krell