Guest [tom jaimz] Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 From the unreleased killers on AG thread. Do others agree with the attitude of these two? I promise I'm not looking for a fight. ;-) -- Re: unreleased minimal killers on AG -- Author: bioman (---.ym.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com) Date: 03-11-02 15:00 @!#$ off T. Jaimz!!!!!!!!! Dont tell us what to do. If you're stupid enough to waste your money at the record store go do it. DJ's who are fairly well known dont pay a cent for vinyl because record companies automatically mail them @!#$ in order for them to promote their acts. So do many artists. I urge everyone to buy a CD once in a while so we can all share on audiogalaxy and winmx! If you wanna be stupid and waste your money, then go ahead. -- Re: unreleased minimal killers on AG -- Author: Navigator (---.abnamro.nl) Date: 03-12-02 09:50 yeah Tom, Why are some of you always wining about mp3z?? Don't blame us it's here..... If you want to spend all your money on EP's and Cds's that's fine with me, but I don't since i'm not a dj and only listen at home or in my car So stop bugging coz you never gonna get people stop dloading music! -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naiman Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 I really don't care what people do. it's their own business.. I just hate when people act's like mp3s are the end of the world or something. If u are speeding sometimes or walking against red lights, then don't give that mp3 @!#$ . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dam10n Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Interesting one. I think it comes down to Shawn Fanning really. I remember in 1998 that everybody in the music biz was looking forward to 1999 as following the pattern for the next big thing to hit music: 1955 - rock n roll 1966 - acid rock / proper rock thing 1977 - punk 1988 - acid house 1999 - ??? In the end all we got was Garage and ATB's 9pm Till I Come. But in early 1999 Fanning was quietly plodding at a program that would allow him and his friends to share their music without going round each other's houses. That application eventually became Napster and as we are seeing now, it sort of flipped the whole music industry on its head. If you look at CD's, when they were initially released in the early eighties they had to be pressed in Japan as the technology was so "advanced" and rare in the West. There was also a high ratio of 'dud' presses and this plus the export/import costs meant that CD's had to be v.expensive. Costs of CD players came down, and the bigwig labels promised that the cost of the unit CDs would as well. But despite companies like EMI in the states and Bertlesman in Europe getting their own insourced CD plants, they figured that wouldn't cut the pries cos they were on to a winner. And in 1999, you had a situation where costs were minimal, transportation was minimal, the ratio of dud presses was minimal, and the technology to press / burn CD's at home was becoming more available. Something had to give. So IMO whether you look at it like the death of a format, or the birth of a new "underground" format not like MD or DCC that was corporate-led, we are still in a transition period, where the music industry bigwigs are trying (and largely failing) to flog their own stuff in MP3, or come up with a proprietary, non-copyable software format, or think up something else along those lines. The big players are getting their comeuppance; but this rebellion / backlash act is too indiscriminate, which is why it affects labels we like (i.e. top notch trance providers.) So in a way it kind of is stupid to buy music CD's; because it's a hell of a lot of money for the product / unit that you buy. But this spins into a morality debate - if you don't have the money to buy a motorbike, do you just nick one that's nearby? No - you fucking well earn the money to buy a motorbike (and as any dad will tell you, you'll appreciate it more for earning it.) Alright that was very cheesy - but I think this debate is hard to solve as we're still in a transitionary period. There will be labels and bands who suffer, and labels and bands who benefit (like Massive Attack and David Bowie, who released their last albums online before in the shops.) Columbo's conclusion: debate cannot be solved because it's impossible to distance oneself from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naiman Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 " But this spins into a morality debate - if you don't have the money to buy a motorbike, do you just nick one that's nearby? No - you fucking well earn the money to buy a motorbike (and as any dad will tell you, you'll appreciate it more for earning it.) " You can't compare copying to stealing. Copying mp3s is like you would buy the parts and take "model" from the bike and build your own, and Harley davidson would lose money because you didn't buy it from them. Stealing and Copying is two different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naiman Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 You can grow your own tomatos too, that doesn't mean youre stealing from the shops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Project Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 I agree to what you're saying here dam10n except on one point. Yes the record labels could cut the price down but it's not really them that make the CD's so expensive! It's the destribution networks and the shops! They are the "sinners". It's not unusual to find distributors and shops squeezing the price 150-200% up! Also consider that the labels have a lot of costs per CD. They have to pay for the CD cover atrwork, pressing, packaging, posting, promotion (the biggest post) and in the traditional music industry they also many times have to pay for studio time for the artists/bands! - so to be able to recoup their money they need to see the one CD for around $. 5 - 6.5 which is way beneath the distribution and shop price! Last the artist also need his /her share which is (on a standard contract) around 14% of the wholesale after deduction of costs! Thar give the artists a share of around $. 1 - 1.5 per CD. Not that much indeed! The BIG TIME winners are the Distributors and shops and to some point the labels! The loosers are the shopper's and the artists! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Epsilon Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 "I just hate when people act's like mp3s are the end of the world or something." Astounishing intelligence. "If u are speeding sometimes or walking against red lights, then don't give that mp3 @!#$ ." Brilliant mastermind. I only download mp3's as a previews. If I like the artist I buy the cd. Even if I had all the songs on my hd as mp3's. The idiots (Hey! Look! I'm collecting flames again!) who only gather mp3's over the net without buying the cd don't realise that some people try to make living by selling that music what the previously mentioned idiots steal. This is especially harmful in small genres because most of the artists sell very few records even if there wouldn't be mp3's. When you subtract the losses of mp3's from the profit of very few cd's you get almost nothing. So please people buy the music you like and support the artists or be a sucker. Now you think "How does it affect the artist if I dl this album in mp3's?". No it won't affect the artist if you dl the album but it will affect when thousand people dl the album. If you say "Why shouldn't I download mp3's? I can't get in jail!" you could try to go to work with 0€ in a month and have a taste of mp3. Hmm... Yummy! I'm sorry if I offended someone dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Project Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 By there's many honest DJ's out there that DO buy a lot of vinyl and CD's.....the looser DJ's don't ! I still think that DJ's that play with mp3 and won't pay for music even when they get paied to DJ should get kicked in their asses and thrown out of this scene...I know I am dreaming though...but it would be the right thing to do! Anyway there's way too many "wanna-be" dj's out there that we honestly do not need! Mp3's are good for deciding if you want to buy the music or not...but it's a shame that so may kids out there think it's a substitute to real CD quality! - I just hope they will use their brains a bit more once they grow up! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dam10n Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Naiman, points taken and well made, but the growing your own tomatoes is like saying, "if you don't want to pay for music then write your own" which isn't the same thing and >Copying mp3s is like you would buy the parts and take "model" from the bike >and build your own, and Harley davidson would lose money because you didn't >buy it from them. Sort of, but in terms of MP3 copying and trading you're not actually paying for anything - aside from the PC and internet connection of course - and again there's nothing in MP3 trading that's similar to constructing a bike, you're not building anything, or making anything, or creating anything. And EP, yeah I dig it, thinking more about the cost-setting bigwigs like EMI and that rather than trance labels. And I agree that distribution is the real cost-vacuum. Like I said, we might be moving to a different context in which the distribution gets replaced by the internet, packaging & artwork repro gets replaced by people's printers... who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Setuko Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 fully agree with dam10n , if you buy cd's or vinyl you respect the music and anjoy listening to it much more then burning a cdr , so all mp3 freaks ... go out and buy yourself a great piece of digital audio ... i always download music before i buy it ... and i'm certainly not a rich guy , actually 25% of my income goes top music and another 25% to parties ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brandon Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Elysium, that's ludicrous, how you say there are too many "wanna-be" dj's in this scene. What, do you think dj'ing should be limited to a select group of "professionals" or something? That is exactly what this scene is not about - placing our musicians on some higher pedestal, as most other music scenes do. This scene is about community involvement, equal respect, the celebration of individuality and shared humanity. There should be no heirarchies in psytrance, and if there are, we've fallen into a trap thats goes against the basic principle of the whole movement. If someone wants to give dj'ing a go, just for the fun of it and just so they can contribute something to the scene, and they don't have the means to buy shitloads upon shitloads of overpriced music (especially vinyl), I say let them use whatever means possible to further their cause - this includes maybe using mp3s. Of course buying the music should be a priority, but if someone doesnt have the means to buy all the music they want, what's the harm in burning some cd's? It's not like the person is keeping any of their money from the record companies and artists? They've already spent as much as they can, and have no more left to give. Am I right, or do I have this scene all wrong? peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Project Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Well brandon I was merely refering to all the mp3 DJ's - I call them "wanna - be" DJ's... I couldn't care less who's a DJ or not! - I just don't think that our scene need all the mp3 "wanna-be" DJ's !!! Have you ever heard about earning a honest living and then buying what you can afford? - Trust me it feels great :-).... Most healthy people in the western world can work if they really want to!!! - I know some can't afford it but come on I do not make music as charity work for you and your mates that can afford the music! - I would be happy to give away my music to really poor people - no problem - (Actually I have donated some of my royalties from my 1st CD to the children in Bosnia/Hercegovina) but there's no way that i will give it out for free to a bunch of middleclass spoiled braths that just don't care to buy the music becuse it's easier to download it! Dont take me wrong I am all for the people should be able to listen before they buy but come on..If a so-called DJ use mp3 when he / she play and still get paied then I think it's wrong!!! People have less and less respect for values these days and think that it's all the others that are wrong! - as long as they can get their free music - they dont give a @!#$ about the artists rights! - whats next? - starving artists? - well some of the artists allready starve! This world has becomed too much reliable on credit cards and credit buys! And now it also seem that more and more people think it's their birth right to get free music! I rest my case and anticipate another flame war against me! Support your local artist - kick out your mp3 dealer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Project Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 I agree with you basilisk...just one thing... I have never and I mean never pirated audio software or plugins....!! - I buy my stuff. - Afterall I get money from my music when I release it so I do not think it's right to pirate it ! But I try the software and plugins before I buy - just as you listen to mp3's before you buy the music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Setsuko Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 indeed EP , wanna-be dj's are the ones who play more illegal music then original music int heir sets ... i hate that and i know that to many people do that ... for example , i know this guy who wanted to dj ... he only has maybe 5 original cd's , the rest is copy or mp3 cdr ... and the worst of all is he asked a friend of me (kadafi) to use her original cd's to play in his set ... sorry but i get furious when hearing such a stories .. those guys do not get my respect , they don't do it for the music but for the popularity .... yuk btw , EP ... that's so great to hear you donated some of your profit to the children living in war ... that's the real spirit man ☻ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mindbender Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Ok... My two cents... I'm basically with basilisk. After getting my LAN connection through my university, I've been downloading some 100 tracks per day on average... Never have the time to listen to them all... But just today I placed and order to Chaos Unlimited worth £100. Most of the stuff I had previwed as mp3. Hell, i even bought a re-issue of TIP - Phosphorescent on vinyl and I had it already as CD-R (done the same sort of thing many times b4). I think mp3's are good, at least to me. I can preview music, but even more importantly, I can get stuff that I like to listen to once in while, but which I didn't find worth buying... This might seem a bit dual-moralistic to you, but let me explain: I'm sure you too have music you like a bit, would listen to it sometimes, but that you would never buy unless it was on like 80% discount. That is where I fit my piracy in. Music which is worth a couple of listens. If I find myself listening to it more, I buy it. After all, I have some 800 original recordings... And I'd like to point out that I'm a student. The £100 was the savings that I had made in the last 2 months, meaning much less drinking etc. where students waste money. And yes, I get sometimes sad/frustrated/pissed off at DJs who have almost only pirated stuff. But I have many friends that pirate all their stuff, some of them even DJs. I'm not going to break relationships just because I feel morally different about pirating stuff. After all, we all different morals and we have to cope with that, eventhough many of us wish that the people around us would adopt the same morals as us ourselves. And as a last point... It is pissing me off that often LPs have less tracks than CDs... Sometimes it even results in me not getting the album that I like at all... But usually I buy the LP and then copy the CD off a friend to get the few missing tracks and also to be able to listen to it without changing sides... I don't find that wrong. After all, I've payed the artist and labels and shops their share. Lauri PS. I wouldn't consider piracy against mainstream artists and labels, who sell too much anyway, as a bad thing. It is in a small music scene like this where the damage to artists and labels can be very significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strumpling Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 It pisses me off that people are accepting FREE MP3 music as an alternative to purchasing their music..... and i'm not even an artist, so I can see how EP and other released artists must feel (hey EP you still haven't let me know if there are any shops near Los Angeles in USA that carry your work? does your label know? I wanna give you some ca$h, man!) when people are basically stealing thier work.. I'll admit I have MP3s, but only of music I haven't been able to find in stores YET. those of you who are simply downloading your albums without giving the artist thier 14%, and not CARING....... grrrrrrr -=- Matt/Strumpling -=- rar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mE 1 Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 ah ... it's important for this scene.. PERHAPS... to buy the CDs because it's so small... but i fucking don't care about those other huge lobbying companies who preach morals like many of you here do... companies who want to throw you in jail for copying their music/movies/whatever... these people i hope are hurt the MOST by the compression and p2p revolution... i hope they burn in poverty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Project Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Hi Strumpling. I really do not know if there's any shops in LA that sell my music! - You see I am not with my old label anymore and we do not speak at all! But my new CD will be released very soon and distributed in LA too. When I have more details about the distribution I will let you know :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strumpling Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 excellent. If any of you other peeps have released music, let me know! I'll get you your 14% on a purchase! -=- Matt/Strumpling -=- kissin ass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest psywarrior Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Props to Elysium Project, dam10n, basilisk, and strumpling. We all seem to agree for the most part. 1. There is a difference in the sound quality. 2. Using burnt cds of mp3s at parties is cheapening the whole scene. 3. It is disrespectful to the artists not to give something back. If the artists can't survive from making music then they have to get a "normal" job, which is a waste of talent and deprives us of the music we love. 4. Mp3s do have their use. Example: to find and listen to new music before you buy it. I also have to say that the money excuse is lame. I don't make @!#$ for money (about 200 u.s. dollars every two weeks) and after rent, bills and other expenses I still am able to buy some psytrance cds. Not as many as I would like but that is aside from the point. The point is: I love psytrance and I also respect the artists enough to spend the little money I got to buy the music and thus support the scene I love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mindbender Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Well concluded... Lauri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mindbender Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Correction: Well summarised... Lauri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kzi Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 last one out turn off the lights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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