AmithabaBuddha Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hello producers , im needing a hand of some tuturials and advices cause my mixing doesnt sound so deep as the old skool records sound. I know im making something wrong but dont know what , thats why im asking for help. Feel free to give good advices and good techniques . Im using now Reason 2.5 (i were at Fruity Studio and happened me the same). Cheers , Filipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negrosex Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Im not sure if this is what youre after but reverberation gives a kind of depth to the mix. In a real world you will hear more reverberation on sounds that are far away, so try and put more reverb on sounds that are not so loud. And dont put much reverb on louder sound becauce they will be percieved as being closer to the listener, if you put to much reverb on them it will sound unatural. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmithabaBuddha Posted December 8, 2004 Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 Im not sure if this is what youre after but reverberation gives a kind of depth to the mix. In a real world you will hear more reverberation on sounds that are far away, so try and put more reverb on sounds that are not so loud. And dont put much reverb on louder sound becauce they will be percieved as being closer to the listener, if you put to much reverb on them it will sound unatural. Hope this helps. 205063[/snapback] good advice , thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hi AmithabaBuddha, First of all it's quite hard to achieve the fullness of sound in the oldschool stuff. Most producers using a digital setup of course go for a clear and crisp sound since that is a lot easier nowadays. But no matter how good mixing you are, reason won't sound like a old-school trance track. I guess what I personally strive for is a good balance between crispness and warmness, and don't only want to sound old-school. But a few hints on how to warm up your sound. The obvious easy thing is to use various tube emulator/dist plugins. And on a lot of things. To save DSP you can group your sounds uin busses with the plugins on. PSP - Vintage Warmer is strongly reccommended. Disco DSP - Thrill Me is good as well but excites the treble quite a bit. Antares - Tube is also worth a try. If you still find that you can't get a warm enough sound consider getting a high quality channel strip with some coloured compression/eq/dist and good D/A converters. You could route your audio thru that to record it down and get the analogue sound of an expensive analog mixing console. I have a Focusrite tone master I was using a bit like that which is a nice budget unit for that purpose. Make sure you get a quality unit though because the cheap hardware don't sound at all as good as the plugins. I would think that there is a lot of other factors to work on before you need a hardware unit to emulate a specific type of sound. Using reason you won't get fatt full sound. Most people will agree that somehow the mixing does not sound good enough. I only can speak from my experience in fruity and orion that if you compare to mix down a bunch of tracks in logic or one reason/fruit/orion you can easily tell the difference. I reccomend Logic as the best sounding sequencer I have tried. I gave up on cubase many years ago now myself, but like always it's many people who will swear that it sounds great. Try the sequencers you are interested in using and mix down identical mixes to make a blind test if you want to know for yourself. Also I have never found host-based plugins that I find sound fat and deep enough for basses especially in my taste. I always do my basses on my Pulsar DSP card which works in a higher resolution when calculating the sound than VST plugins. Also the mixing on the Pulsar is audibly better than Logic even. My first step in hardware would for sure be to get a Pulsar or/and a UAD-1 card. About mixing techniques in general: Don't think it's so much about mixing. Best and fattest sound is from a good sounding source. The main thing when mixing the sounds should really be to make sure the gain structure is good, buy ensuring your levels is high enough but not clipping/limiting anywhere is the signal path. Using to much EQ and therefore making the sounds thinner is a common misstake. A fat sound can't sound fatter by EQ'ing it. If you know what you do you can make a thin sound sound fatter, and of course make a fat sound sound thin no matter if you know what you are doing or not. If you ask me to carefull adjustemt of levels, making everything sit perfectly in the mix with no masking going on with compressors and EQ makes music sound dead and flat. A rough mix is many times a good one. But hey...everyone loves shpongle and I think it sounds dead boring so call me wierd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djnemo Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 T-Racks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmithabaBuddha Posted December 8, 2004 Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 T-Racks 205077[/snapback] does it will take off my crispy sound mixing away ? the problem is that digital haves too much quality and the synths sounds too much close to you , goa old records doesnt sound that way , maybe im needing some hardware synths...? SpinDrift - Thanks for those kind words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auryn Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 there is some very good advice here already, but i'd like to add that you can just reduce the crispy sound by lowpassing the sounds that you want to sound warmer. the problem is that reason's low pass filter isn't very warm or deep sounding, and it takes away a lot of definition. you might want to try using some external filter (like the one in korg's legacy ms-20). good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmithabaBuddha Posted December 11, 2004 Author Share Posted December 11, 2004 there is some very good advice here already, but i'd like to add that you can just reduce the crispy sound by lowpassing the sounds that you want to sound warmer. the problem is that reason's low pass filter isn't very warm or deep sounding, and it takes away a lot of definition. you might want to try using some external filter (like the one in korg's legacy ms-20). good luck! 205412[/snapback] parametric EQ will fix that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djnemo Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 parametric EQ will fix that 205584[/snapback] Reason 3 is out soon, with more enhanced Mastering units See my pinned topic for link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmithabaBuddha Posted December 13, 2004 Author Share Posted December 13, 2004 Reason 3 is out soon, with more enhanced Mastering units See my pinned topic for link. 205622[/snapback] yeah Nemo i´ve checked it thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiph T. Elephant Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I only can speak from my experience in fruity and orion that if you compare to mix down a bunch of tracks in logic or one reason/fruit/orion you can easily tell the difference. 205067[/snapback] I'm sorry, but this is just a myth. There is no magic in the mixing engine, it's hardly a very complicated process. All sequencers do it the same way. I would guess the difference is due to other reasons. http://audiotests.batcave.net/article0001.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 No...it's the experience of many producers including myself. You can call it a myth if you like, I can tell you in a blind-test anyday. Four tracks is not much to test it on, but already at eight tracks I can hear the difference in some cases...sure if you make tracks with only kick, bass, lead and groove you might be fine with fruity. And cubase is the worst sounding "pro" sequencer I tried, so not so good to compare with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Just a few quotes from producers in various forums with regards to the sound of the mixing in reason: Also, try and print things from reason into PT's individually. The mix buss in Reason is really horrible. I did notice that if i make a complete track in Reason, the sounds tend to become really middly as i add more sounds. Just don't submix in Reason. Of everything I've heard made ENTIRELY in reason, the sound quality tends to have a sameness: very cheap and lofi (and not lofi in a cool way). Agreeing with Kenny, I would attribute this "sound" to the mix bus... it is in no way desireable to me. When you take individual outs out of reason, there is no reason (no pun intended) that it can't sound just as good as any other hardware/software sampler, if the origin of the samples are good. I hear a HUGE difference when using individual outputs, (rewire) but the sequence sounds noticeably better when played in Logic using the vsti Battery. Anyone know why this is? I heard a lot of reason stuff, and I have to say that I never heard some REALLY good souding stuff coming out of reason. I also take Reason tracks to be mixed on an Ensoniq Paris system, which improves them amazingly. I have still not found out why various digital mixers sounds so different, but I have tested and heard it on several occations so for me there is no doubt about that there is differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmithabaBuddha Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'm sorry, but this is just a myth. There is no magic in the mixing engine, it's hardly a very complicated process. All sequencers do it the same way. I would guess the difference is due to other reasons. http://audiotests.batcave.net/article0001.htm 205930[/snapback] this is completely true , that "engine story" its only a Tabu . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Have you tested it yourself? With more than four tracks and comparing to mix them in a high end system? I'll bet you I can tell you if you mix 16 tracks or so in reason and in Logic and send me the files I can tell you what is what, and I bet then you will be able to as well. Like I said, I have tested is many times with different software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmithabaBuddha Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 Have you tested it yourself? With more than four tracks and comparing to mix them in a high end system? I'll bet you I can tell you if you mix 16 tracks or so in reason and in Logic and send me the files I can tell you what is what, and I bet then you will be able to as well. Like I said, I have tested is many times with different software. 205954[/snapback] yep ive tested it with other pro mixes , it sounds the same , its only a matter of skills , knowledge , EQ and mixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Tested it with other pro mixes.....what does that mean? Have you done a blind A/B test when mixing severeal tracks with identical setting and plugins in the different apps, and what apps was you comparing? And my mixing knowledge does not become worse because I use another app. I would love to work with orion for example, but when having many tracks at the same time the same kick sample seems to disappear for example. I don't have the same problem in logic, and thats why I use it instead. Your original question was why you mixings does not sound deep. I can find you 100's of producers that will swear that logic has a deeper sound than reason based on their experience. Obviously you think that they don't have a clue and has fllen for a myth, maybe thats why you still have a problem with your mixes. I could not beleive the differences when I first encountered them (using a yama 02R instead of cubase for mixing the tracks) since I never heard about this "myth" about digital mixers and presumed they should shound identical. If you rather belive some vague technical arguements about that they should sound identical instead of testing and listen with your own ears or listen to people who have tested properly then you are fooling yourself IMO. It a overwhealiming part of the audio professionals that will agree that they indeed sound different. Here is a few examples of discussions you might want to read if you really are interested in if there is a difference in sound between different digital mixer software. http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.ph...ic=4125&forum=5 http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/lo...php/t20266.html http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.ph...4138&forum=5&13 http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum1/HTML/015819-2.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonMan Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'm sorry, but this is just a myth. There is no magic in the mixing engine, it's hardly a very complicated process. Well this is true generally (it's mostly a matter of floating point maths etc) there are some differences in the way ausio engines do their work. For instance Sonar 4 has introduced a "variable pan law", one reason was to allow it to sound more like other sequencers. Sonar 4 also introduced POW-r3 dithering , again for the final mixdown to wav or to the soundcard. This too will change the sound of the final mix (you can change the dithering algorithm in Sonar 4 if you wish). Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hybridx Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Also try to lower the mid to mid-high frequencies on your basslines using EQ. I've just noticed that. Spent hours last night playing around with Vaz Modular to come up with a decent rolling bassline. Also lower the mid to mid-high frequenices ever so slightly on the final mix. Trust me...it sounds superb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 yep ive tested it with other pro mixes , it sounds the same , its only a matter of skills , knowledge , EQ and mixing. 205955[/snapback] Your statement there made me a bit confused really Amithabababa. I just gave up on switching over to Abelton instead of logic for the very reason that i can't get the depth of sound I get in Logic. I love how Live works and would really like to work with it but it's just not fun when your previous tracks sound better I can tell you that I have worked with multitude of hardware mixers, from Neve to Behringer, various digital desks and many different pieces of software. When my EQ sounded wrong or I made mistakes in the production I can normally identify them as such. But to me both Orion and Live tend to give much more muddy and flat sounding mix than other systems I tried. Obviously to me what you saying is totally wrong or I'm missing out on some special necessary skill to make budget software and cubase sound good. If you have experiences with how to get Orion or Live to sound as good as Logic I would be very interested to know where I'm going wrong. And I would be interested to hear more about your testing, because the test mentioned earlier is obviously a joke and in no way a serious attempt to find out any differences. The only people I heard about making proper tests (blind test with some 16 channels of audio and some plugin chains with identical settings) can tell the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gruzina Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 hello about the mixing process(mastering) thier is nothing better then jost sit few hours and jost try to mix it over and over again . this is the only way to get good results. i had this problem befor and i asked alot about how to make my mastering process easer and faster and i asked some real proffesional studio owners and they all say the saime ... "its all about practice!" everyone got his own sound and thats the reason why you should try and work on your own mastering technics you can also read books in this topic (mastering books) it may help you... but dont give up ! you need to practice until you get your own spacial sound good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmithabaBuddha Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 hello about the mixing process(mastering) thier is nothing better then jost sit few hours and jost try to mix it over and over again . this is the only way to get good results. i had this problem befor and i asked alot about how to make my mastering process easer and faster and i asked some real proffesional studio owners and they all say the saime ... "its all about practice!" everyone got his own sound and thats the reason why you should try and work on your own mastering technics you can also read books in this topic (mastering books) it may help you... but dont give up ! you need to practice until you get your own spacial sound good luck 207279[/snapback] thanks man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 about the mixing process(mastering)Mixing and mastering is two separate processes. To me is seems like it's a lot of disillusions about both those processes. Neither of those processes will magically make your sound good. Sure you can make not so good sounds sound better wih good mixing skills and some quality mastering...but: Good sound comes from using....good sounds. Simple as that. You can make a superb sounding production without a EQ or compressor at all if you have good sound sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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