Empty Space Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I would pay for mp3's if they were cheaper, as it is (real) albums cost about $20-25 (or more here) but then I get the case, the cover art, the inside booklet, the nice design printed on the CD itself, and any other additions there may be. Paying about $2 Cdn for an mp3 that I can download for free, is ridiculous (a whole mp3 album will cost me as much as buying the damn real thing!), as I don't get album art, I don't get bells and whistles. I'm sorry if my views are controversial, I am a musician myself. I want to make money off it as well but dammit mp3's are just individual tracks, to be honest I won't bother paying for them until they become like .75 a track (or less). I can buy a fucking album and make high-quality mp3's out of it myself, and make a compilation and spend about the same amount of money as paying $2 for each individual mp3. A whole album on mp3 should be less than $10 in total. I'm sorry guys it is a really good idea it has its heart in the exact right place, but it really does need to be cheap before people will go for this en mass... I hope this can be done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khogg Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I won't pay for mp3's. Hell, I don't even download mp3's anymore. It's just a waste of time... I will pay for good cd's, preferably with nice art and cool booklets etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noiseanomilie Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Yeah, VBR will work as well - even better. The main thing I would hate to see is if a new store would sell a low bitrate like 192kbps. Click-a-track is a store that was started by the Plusquam guys and had a lot of nice psy-progressive labels. I would have blown loads of money there except for the fact that they only sold 192kbps format and did not even consider the possibility of anything higher. Several other stores I've checked out have only had 192kbps files (CBR) as well, which is quite a shame, IMO. 320 CBR is IMO the minimum I would like to see. But a 320 VBR would be even better. 216229[/snapback] yeah good quality is what we will strive for because you can't have bad quality sound with trance so 320 will hopefullt be our standard but we want to offer many formats to choose from. As far as pricing goes we will hopefully sell south african trance at 1 pound and international as 1 pound 50. which means a full cd download costs between 10 to 15 pounds. Which is not bad for trance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trancehead Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 I think there are some good ideas out there. Trying to incorproate them all would be a difficult mission to say the least. I would just like to clear some things up. 1: DRM will allow you to copy your song to an mp3 player and burn it to an audio CD 10 times each. Thats 20 times you can take it from your pc with you. How many times do you plan to lose your CD's? The labels are not keen to authorize wma (not mp3 by the way) music files because someone pays his $1, downloads the track and gives it free of charge to all his buddies. Maybe they do take a bigger cut and the artist gets 1% but then sign with other lables that are more progressive in their thinking (but thats another topic). 2: It would be impossible to offer files in every format available. At the moment wma files (I know, down with microsoft, etc, etc - thats another forum) are what we've been investigating. 3: There would be a quality control process for independant artists - in fact we could probably pay somebody to help us out with this. Anybody wanna listen to free trance and get paid for it? 4: Cash wise we're just party goers like you guys and are looking to spread the reach of some the kick ass music we've all danced/tripped to. The site will start small but the more support we get the easier it would be to convince more labels of its usefullness to them. 5: It will be a community shop on the web, not some iTunes corporation. We're just 2 guys who dig the music. 6: How many of you guys have heard South African psytrance? I would think probably not many and this is my point - what kick ass music from South Africa, Australia, Thailand, Brazil, etc are you missing because the artist doesn't have the resources to print 50 000 CD's and distribute around the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noiseanomilie Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I think there are some good ideas out there. Trying to incorproate them all would be a difficult mission to say the least. I would just like to clear some things up. 1: DRM will allow you to copy your song to an mp3 player and burn it to an audio CD 10 times each. Thats 20 times you can take it from your pc with you. How many times do you plan to lose your CD's? The labels are not keen to authorize wma (not mp3 by the way) music files because someone pays his $1, downloads the track and gives it free of charge to all his buddies. Maybe they do take a bigger cut and the artist gets 1% but then sign with other lables that are more progressive in their thinking (but thats another topic). 2: It would be impossible to offer files in every format available. At the moment wma files (I know, down with microsoft, etc, etc - thats another forum) are what we've been investigating. 3: There would be a quality control process for independant artists - in fact we could probably pay somebody to help us out with this. Anybody wanna listen to free trance and get paid for it? 4: Cash wise we're just party goers like you guys and are looking to spread the reach of some the kick ass music we've all danced/tripped to. The site will start small but the more support we get the easier it would be to convince more labels of its usefullness to them. 5: It will be a community shop on the web, not some iTunes corporation. We're just 2 guys who dig the music. 6: How many of you guys have heard South African psytrance? I would think probably not many and this is my point - what kick ass music from South Africa, Australia, Thailand, Brazil, etc are you missing because the artist doesn't have the resources to print 50 000 CD's and distribute around the world. 216462[/snapback] Nice one tell them there boundaries will blast open and a new wave of psytrance is coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 6: How many of you guys have heard South African psytrance? I would think probably not many and this is my point - what kick ass music from South Africa, Australia, Thailand, Brazil, etc are you missing because the artist doesn't have the resources to print 50 000 CD's and distribute around the world. 216462[/snapback] Thank DC++ for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trancehead Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 Have look here - http://www.eff.org/share/collective_lic_wp.php - now that would be cool. I'd go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insejn Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 6: How many of you guys have heard South African psytrance? I would think probably not many and this is my point - what kick ass music from South Africa, Australia, Thailand, Brazil, etc are you missing because the artist doesn't have the resources to print 50 000 CD's and distribute around the world. 216462[/snapback] South African psytrance is the best music out there at the moment. For those who haven't heard it; you've missed the best music available at the moment. IMO (Got to add IMO or some jerks coming saying that it's only my oppinion and flame me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 1: DRM will allow you to copy your song to an mp3 player and burn it to an audio CD 10 times each. Thats 20 times you can take it from your pc with you. How many times do you plan to lose your CD's? The labels are not keen to authorize wma (not mp3 by the way) music files because someone pays his $1, downloads the track and gives it free of charge to all his buddies. Maybe they do take a bigger cut and the artist gets 1% but then sign with other lables that are more progressive in their thinking (but thats another topic).Belive me, people can get hold of illegal copies if they like, wheather you use DRM or not. If you look a bit at your competitors, I cannot see one that usews DRM or WMA. I think most people would prefer shops without DRM and with regular Mp3's. So I can bet you that you would get very low sales if you go down that route. And £1.50 per track is very expensive. Again I would sure go for a shop that sells for $1. People do not want to pay $15 for a downloaded album. Infact most shops have album discounts, so many of you competitors will sell for half the price of what you plan to do. I would really reccommend that you have a better look at the market and try to consider why it looks like it does, and think about why people should pay double the amount to get a format that they don't like with a protection system they despise. But I love SA trance as well and hope you get some more of that stuff out to the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trancehead Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 Belive me, people can get hold of illegal copies if they like, wheather you use DRM or not. If you look a bit at your competitors, I cannot see one that usews DRM or WMA. I think most people would prefer shops without DRM and with regular Mp3's. So I can bet you that you would get very low sales if you go down that route. And £1.50 per track is very expensive. Again I would sure go for a shop that sells for $1. People do not want to pay $15 for a downloaded album. Infact most shops have album discounts, so many of you competitors will sell for half the price of what you plan to do. I would really reccommend that you have a better look at the market and try to consider why it looks like it does, and think about why people should pay double the amount to get a format that they don't like with a protection system they despise. 216478[/snapback] The question is do people hate the DRM because it limits their burning of CD's (which we can even make unlimited) or is it because they can't share it? Maybe the answer here is to convince labels that whenever a track of theirs is played a webpage will open with links to buying another of their tracks. So DRM is a big no. Prices need to be about $1 per track. And preferably more than one format (say wma, mp3, aac?). Would you say this is the right direction. Spindrift: I appreciate your help with this. What system do you use for your shopping cart out of interests sake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I think people hate DRM not so much from practical reasons. Of course it is a fear that a protected file will cause technical difficulties for they way people want to use the file, but my guess is that people also do not like to feel distrusted. And if they know do want to spend money on something that can get for free they can feel intimidated that they now should have to settle with a inferior format when they do that. Because DRM will not improve the product in any way for the consumer, it can only be a cause of difficulties. People do buy mp3's to try to support and to respect lables and artists, and they simply demand respect back in return as well. Many lables is still hesitant to allow shops to sell downloads though. If using a DRM system will help you convince a couple of extra lables that feel like that to get rid of thier paranoia it still will be no use if you do not get people to buy the downloads anyway. You just have to do your best to try to convince the labels that their fears is really unfounded I think Everything released is readily available in P2P networks and it really will make no difference at all if someone would take a copy downloaded from your site and add that to the 100's of copies of the release already there to be downloaded. Belive me, I tried to spread the resonantearth releases in filesharing networks, but people prefer to download a release from a well known release group, so it was not until mycel made a release they became widespread. Hopefully the labels will become more realistic about how they relate to downloads very soon, but it's still not a big business so until it takes off a bit more many will probably remian in a state of ignorance. I can recommend to read this article about downloading and filesharing in general: http://danbricklin.com/recordsales.htm That is containing quite a bit of facts that often seem to be overlooked when labels discuss downloading in a way that make you belive that every downloaded copy is a lost sale. I made a post in isratrance about the future of the trance industry in specific in hope of getting a discussion with some of the many labels that frequent that forum. http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/...c/54861/forum/1 No label have replied yet, so they do not seem to be very interested in the future, but if there is a post about how to bring down a site that links to downloads of their music it fills up quickly with many label managers spewing out their discontent. All the features on resonantearth is custom made for the site by me. If you are interested in getting a similar solution together mail or PM me and we can discuss if I can be of help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolaid Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 How about this: *Top* releases (eg new shpongle album) get a pre-CD release in mp3, flac or wav (with respective pricing). You can only download the file once say at least 500 people have signed up with credit card details. As soon as those 500 people have signed up you send them an e-mail telling them where to login and download the album. The CD gets released a few weeks later. -- Have you considered a subscription based service eg. $10 / month for unlimited downloads. The money then gets distributed to the labels according to the popularity of artist downloads. Have a look at this site... http://www.playloudermsp.com - they're a new ISP which will be offering "free" music downloads. Half their profits will be split to the record labels, according to the number of downloads per artist. Just offering you some alternatives. Make sure to check out these websites: www.downhillbattle.org www.eff.org www.slyck.com (in particular mashboxx and snowcap) www.musically.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slyman604 Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 i would never invest money in a business model that is trying to sell people the exact same thing they can get for free. thats just doomed from the start. I hardly ever buy psytrance cds, i dont really download that much either or really listen to much newer stuff. Alot of stuff just isnt interesting to listen to unless its on a big system. I think there should be an absolute "shaming" assault on anyone that spins mp3s at a party that they havent purchased. With sooo many cool psychedelic artist in this scene how the hell do some of these cd covers get made? http://212.227.206.198/cgi-bin/zoom.cgi?tr...rl1cd011.html:; what the fuck is that? It just seems like labels probly use the same "professional" graphic artist who pump out the same lame shit covers because its their "job" instead of trying to find one of the probly thousands of people who would do a cover for free even just to get there visual art out there. Ive seen alot of art online that i would gladly buy the cd just to have a nice printout of the artwork. The labels have to start selling something that cant be downloaded, the best and possibly only way i can see that happening is with some really cool art. Otherwise its just up to leaving things to peoples good faith. The psy cd covers should be an outlet for underground psy artist, i dont understand why its not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 I must say that I personally don't care at all about artwork whatsoever. When I buy music I want good music. Art i can buy separatly if I had perticular interest about that. @kooolaid Some good ideas you have, but can be difficult to get shpongle to prerelease with a download site. And subscription services can be harder to sell than downloads, but for sure could be good as a complement. I must say I cannot make much sense about playlouder, what do they do, and how do they make any profit by offering free downloads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slyman604 Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 "I must say that I personally don't care at all about artwork whatsoever. When I buy music I want good music." well dont bitch then when i dont buy your cd because your not offering anything more than what i can get for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 It is just my opinion, and I'm fully aware that opinions differ on the subject. And I really think that you are right that if you are selling physical CD's you should put an effort into the artwork, because many CD buyers feel like you I'm quite sure. But I think there is many people who do not feel that they have to get art with their music like me. Sure I like psychedelic art, but I don't see why I have to be forced to buy some art everytime I buy music. And my guess is that most the people who will be buying downloads will feel the same. I do give you the option to order custom CD's with a choice of artwork if you like to support me or other artists on my site but don't like to buy downloads. But it's totally up to you what you feel like, and I will for sure not bitch if you don't buy my CD's, and release all my music under an open license. So you can feel free to download and copy it as much as you like. I will only be happy if you do decide to download and listen to my music, for free or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolaid Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 Some good ideas you have, but can be difficult to get shpongle to prerelease with a download site. But worth it money wise, if that sort of thing rocks your boat... I must say I cannot make much sense about playlouder, what do they do, and how do they make any profit by offering free downloads? Actually this article explains what they are doing really well: http://www.eff.org/share/collective_lic_wp.php They provide people with internet. Included in the bill is "free music". Half the profit they make from the ISP business gets split with the artists, the other half they keep. All filesharing is tracked using special network cards which can identify the music being transferred 99% correctly (AFAIK). slyman604 - what if that artwork was infact done by a friend of the artist? I don't think it's that bad. Mind you - I would imagine that the music was as psychedelic as the cover was (not very ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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