benf52 Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 ok i have this pb for a while... when i have a bass note on the same beat as the kik they collide... like the kik won't be clear... how do i solve that.. i tried many different settings of eq, but nothing seems to work... i hear on some tracks that they have a bass note on the same beat sa the kik and it sounds fine.. so how should i eq so i don't have that pb?? ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArseAssassin Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/...c/53266/forum/2 Just ignore the last 8 pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowe Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 ok i have this pb for a while... when i have a bass note on the same beat as the kik they collide... like the kik won't be clear... how do i solve that.. i tried many different settings of eq, but nothing seems to work... i hear on some tracks that they have a bass note on the same beat sa the kik and it sounds fine.. so how should i eq so i don't have that pb?? ben 217649[/snapback] try lowering the basstone on that beat ... or eq the freq on the bass that collides with the kick u use most often round 60 hz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuff Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Typical software related problem those issues aren't that striking when mixing on hardware for instance. Like Logic Bomb, their kicks and basses always seems unbelievable fat (to me anyway, just like the old days - no 'plastic' kicks & b-lines here ; ) and the bottom end is incredible energized, when compared with many other productions from the same era (that is mainly software environment productions), without taking ridiculous attention and too much power from the rest of the mix. It just fits perfectly well. Logic Bomb may use softsynths, software samples and all those things - that i don't know... But the point is that they are mixing everything on an analogue mixing desk (multiple output soundcard needed). That is a huge difference, and i'm convinced that anyone of you who are running only s/w through the whole process now, would notice an improved result if you did the same thing as you do but sent the channels through a decent outboard desk (like Mackie) in the end. I'm sure you'll notice that the sounds are 'floating together' more naturally and all those plotted digits and parameters inside the computer doesn't really care or makes sense when you rely on a mammuth desk outside, which is completely independent from 1/0's and muddled nonsense & half-assed, too accurate, settings. It'll do the work better anyway! (Like I've said before somewhere; it's like comparing masturbating and real sex, at least when it comes to the important mixing part. ;o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixxxan Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 best eqing is in the brainware.. not soft or hardware. just work those frequencies. keep the frequency clear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj mylo Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 In my tracks I drop out this first bass note completely! I heard that this is what you are supposed to do?! It's called a "Bass Path" apparently and I am told that it is a golden rule! Anyway... works for me Seeing as though you should key your kick ( ie. make it the same note as the key of your track ), your kick will actually fill in this hole. So if you are using a 16 bassline, each bar it will look like this: "K" is kick "B" is Bassline "-" is no hit! K---K---K---K -bbb-bbb-bbb- see! Fits perfectly! It will also make a forward "pushing" effect on the sub speaker. It will creative a lot of movement in your bottom end! booooooooooooooooooom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamez_23 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Hmmm . there are a few ways to skin this particular cat, IMO ..... You could drop the bass note on the kick as Mylo suggests ..... this does rather restrict the style of bass pattern that can be used and is not always necessary. Most "full on" basslines do follow this rule though .... Try a high pass filter on the bass note that collides with the kick. The upper harmonics of the bass sound will be present but the lower freq's will not clash with kick as they simply are not present. This creates suprisingly good results ..... the brain does not really register the fact that the bottom end of every 4th note has no bass ..... Try it, you might like it The issue here is headroom. Stuff mentioned that the problem could be solved using an analogue mixing desk. Yes & No. Analouge mixing desks all have slightly different "headroom". The issue of the freq's from the kick and the bass residing in the same space on the audio spectrum is the problem - its takes away any headroom in your mix and creates a nasty clashing "muddy effect". I have a multi out sound card and an analouge mixing desk and it still creates problems. The issue is that both the kick and the bass note are fighting for the same frequencies in the mix and so create a dynamic boost when both played at the same time ..... this is what you need to avoid. EQ can also be useful. Use a spectrum analyser to see where the main frequency response in the sounds are. Two different sounds playing at the same time should not use the same area of the frequency spectrum ..... well, not in pumpy dance music anyway ...... You could set-up a compressor on the bassline channel. Sidechain it to the kick channel. With the correct tweaking of parameters here it is possible to have the bassline "duck" dynamically whenever the kick drum sounds. Another good way to skin the cat. These techniques are more useful in the progressive side of our music where the groove has more importance ...... Oh - and hello by the way - I think this may be my first post. Have been lurking here for a while now ..... James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 And a very good fist post at that Welcome I second everything you said, and the trick to remove the low end of clashing bass notes is very good indeed. And all this sidechaning and EQ business can be useful sometimes and should not be completly disregarded, but generally it's much better to make sure that kick and bass sounds is short enought to not clash and that you have sounds that fit together to start with. So for me the discussion about how to make a good bass and kick is much less about compressor and EQ but rather about what synths and samles that is good for the purpose. There Pulsar modular with Adern flexor modules and Adern KickMe wins hands down. No EQ or compressor needed if you use those for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest .::E.P Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 In my tracks I drop out this first bass note completely! I heard that this is what you are supposed to do?! It's called a "Bass Path" apparently and I am told that it is a golden rule! Anyway... works for me Seeing as though you should key your kick ( ie. make it the same note as the key of your track ), your kick will actually fill in this hole. So if you are using a 16 bassline, each bar it will look like this: "K" is kick "B" is Bassline "-" is no hit! K---K---K---K -bbb-bbb-bbb- see! Fits perfectly! It will also make a forward "pushing" effect on the sub speaker. It will creative a lot of movement in your bottom end! booooooooooooooooooom! 221821[/snapback] ohhh the killar rolling bass There's no rules at all and before you learn that I doubt any of you'll progress much in your music making.. I had to learn it too once apon a time and I am just passing on 25 years of experience to you so dont take it as I am saying you dont know anything... I am just giving you some of my experience and advice. All the technical talk dosen't mean a thing really... yes engineers love to be technical and talk about mhz ect ect. but they dont always come up with the best result... far from My "rule" have always been that whatever sound good is right... It is actually that simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamez_23 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 My "rule" have always been that whatever sound good is right... It is actually that simple 221843[/snapback] Good advice there !!! There are no rules to good music .... There are, however, rules, if you want to churn out GMS clone high energy psy trance music. Which I, personally, dont ...... I know E.P. knows what he's talking about ...... nice rmx for Frogacult there and nice colaboration with BLT recently ..... both get my thumbs up !!! Keep it moving forward !! nice spacey progressive ..... hmmmm ..... Oh & Spindrift - thanks for the welcome ! I hear what you are saying totally. I have two or three bass / kick combos that I keep using because they work so damn well !! ie. without eq or compression ..... they just sit well in the mix without trying to cram them into 'the box' at all !!! nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj mylo Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 ohhh the killar rolling bass 221843[/snapback] Ow! Is that a dagger sticking out of my back?! Just an easy example buddy! ... I am just passing on 25 years of experience to you so dont take it as I am saying you dont know anything... I am just giving you some of my experience and advice. 221843[/snapback] Wow, you are definately the most experienced producer on this Forum. Your advice would be awesome, but yet, you give none?! My "rule" have always been that whatever sound good is right... It is actually that simple 221843[/snapback] O.K, nice words..... but the Problem that Ben has is that IT DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT! So now what? How about some actual technical advice? You been in the game way longer EP...c'mon spill it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pahana Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Ola, i totally agree with e.p. searching for and learning a superduperworking psy receipt leads to nowhere, look at all those people that learned the superduperworking psy GMS receipt and there is todays so much music like this that psytrance music is now almost totally empty, this is nonsense. Make something that sounds good, it doesn't need to sound like something at all. Like in Caveman Valentine movie, you can't push the spirit into music, it must come from your inner self. I think also this is what is (or was) psytrance about.. anyway milo, what you wrote was the best that can someone begin with.. by the way, what about the headroom and the kick/bass mixing trouble on digital mixers? what do you people think about the quality of internal mixers from popular sequencers (logic,cubase...) what i hear is very very very big difference between logic and cubase, the sound (same presets, plugins and notes) is very different. What about using for example rme fireface 800 (56ch) and use the inner rme mixer for mixing (or let's say just put all the tracks together into one output through the device) sequencer outputs - this can do also dramatic change, or am i wrong? mixing two stereo outputs from computer on analogue desk (let's say 2-track in notebook, 1st track bass and kick, 2nd track everything else) makes dramatic change to sound, it sounds much better even on cheap behringer mix mates have in studio than just stereo out from the card. For the Bass, what i do for bass is also velocity. Maybe play with that. Try it like this: K---K---K---K kick bbbbbbbbbbb bass 1/16 - try to shorten the notes to 3/4 of 1/16 this makes also the bass, good for these fast vibrating basses _-' ' ' -_ this is velocity for bass as you see you set the note velocity of bass (that place under Kick) very low, so low that it doesn't make trouble with the kick and you can still hear that the bass is there. Also the next velocity settings - second note somewhere middle, third higher so the boom of this note is answering the kick, fourth note should be somewhere middle so the bass can get lower and prepare for the next kick but sometimes, less can be more personally, for good sounding kick drum and bass and their good mix i need three things, eq (4band is enough, lowband equalisers are also good for details), soft compressor and my dynaudios, i spent a year asking myself, shit, how can i get the bass and kick sound together good and nothing helped, then came the dynaudio beasts and aha! there is error, this should go bit lower and the result is great.. (i had really bad speakers before, some hifi crap, but with yamahas msp5 of my friend it wasn't much better).. this is what channel strip saving feature in logic is great for, i have few presets, it loads plugin, effects, all setuped and it's just fine, i don't need to bother with it in every new track again. last summer i had a tc finalizer for week test. was superquality. someone knows about good and cheaper alternative to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest .::E.P Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I think it's great that people can come to forum's as this and get help but I also see a trend of it going overboard in the sense of "ready made solutions". In my opinion the best way to learn something is to play around with your gear and learn it properly the hard way. It's in my opinion just a bit too easy to come to a forum and think you can get all the "answers" served on a golden tray. You can get a 1000 good advices but at the end of the day they are worth nothing if your music just sound like the rest of the clones out there. I know some of you dont agree with me and think I am arrogant and just some old fart and a "betterwisser". That's not my intention by writing here. I truely think that the best music made is music that aren't done out from some formular and music that do not stick to some, in my opinion, limited technical rules found in some forum. As I said earlier. There are no rules ! Years of experience with sound production have taught me that you need to know your equipment (vst's ect ect) well. You need to experiment a lot. You need to find your own way and your own techniques before you can even begin to think about making music that are unique and not just some copy of someone else. Now I could give a 1000 advive about how to place the bass in between the kicks and how to eq the bass the "right" way but at the end of the day it's not really worth a lot. I think the best advice I can give anyone here is to go and have fun with your equipment and dont think so much about if things sound "right". If you work hard getting tt know your equipment you'll soon see that there are million of right ways. The secret is to find your right way have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I think that following the rules results in very boring productions. But as whoever said "you have to know the rules to break them well". Thats what I got taught in engineering school aswell. And most good producers do have quite a bit of theoretical knowledge that can be very helpful to them and also others if they like to share it. So as long as you don't put it down as rules to follow blindly I don't find it useless myself with some theoretical knowledge. If I thought it was no point in it I would sure not be posting or reading in this section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benf52 Posted February 23, 2005 Author Share Posted February 23, 2005 thx fot the replies... i already do the velocity thing where i lower the velovity on the bass note playing with the kick... but i was listenning to x-dream radio lately.. in the 2nd track "freak" they have this bass, and one note is clearly running on the same not as the kik, like this BBB BBB K K so how do they do it? i mean obviously they don't lower the velovity on that note that plays with the kick... i know that these guys r very talented but man their kick bass combo,. especially on this album is amazing and E.P yeah man give us some tricks... cause saying if it sounds good it's good is not very helpful... share ur knowledge.. i do get ur point about formulaic music, and i know that there r not rules, but there's gotta be some trick to eq bass and kick nicely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benf52 Posted February 23, 2005 Author Share Posted February 23, 2005 oups... my graph is wrong it's like this : K K BBB BBB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benf52 Posted February 23, 2005 Author Share Posted February 23, 2005 jeeeezzz... i won't let me do it.. anyway u got the picture.. one kick, and 3 bass note in a row starting on the 1st beat, then a pause... or go listen to that track it would be easier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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