Classic musik in psytrance

[Guest tobias]

hey

classical music was created by musical genius. There are some "genius" in the electronic scene as well, like posford, jm jarre and others. But its not true that it took so long time to create one classical song some of them could write down about ten tunes in a week when they had their best days=)

[Guest bugbread]

Depends how you count time, too. If you spend a day working on a piece, add some more 3 months later, and spend another day working on it in 9 months, did you write it in 3 days or one year?

 

And, from Infected Mushroom's site:

 

"Erez was born in 1980 and had a classical music background. He learned how to play the organ at 4"

 

and

 

"Duvdev, born in 1974, has a similar musical background. He played the piano for about 9 years"

 

So, they may not be virtuosos (I find it suspicious that they mention Erez's 4 year old organ playing but nothing past that), but they CAN play instruments.

 

Besides, weren't there some classical composers who just pumped out a symphony in a day? I seem to remember reading about it somewhere. It's not like they could do it frequently, but they had all these ideas in their heads, and they just sat down with paper and pen and wrote out a whole symphony in one sitting. Can't remember which of the masters it was, but either Beethoven, Mozart, or Bach, I think.

 

Anyway, Stravinsky is better.

[Guest Pete]

Well.. i think that Elysium project is a good example of that classical training has nothing to do with how good u are at creating trance music. I see it this way:

 

Simon P. can not play instruments, but yet he makes genius electronic music.

Elysium is an expert at playing classical piano, and yet he suck at electronic music.

Maybe im a litle bit hard, he doesnt suck.. but hey, its not good. Im sorry Kristian, but the truth must be told.

[Guest Elysium Project]

That's cool Pete we can't all have the same taste. But I recent that you say that I suck...personally that word does not excist in my world..There's personal taste and that's all...No artists suck in my opinion.

[Guest sam i am]

There are a couple of tracks on the new Mr Peculiar album with little snippets of classical music in them.

Also, Benza has written a track with a sample from the Peter & the Wolf theme in it. It is a beautiful "olde-school" style "Goa" track which makes me grin like an idiot and dance in the morning rain (literally). The sample is integrated really nicely and it's quite nice to hear those strings after a night full of doof.

Just briefly, without wanting to get into an argument but still wanting to put my opinion across, I think psy is slightly more similar to classical than other forms of dance music because _some_ of it contains more melodies and more importantly, more layering of melodies. The important difference is that trance sticks to the 4/4 doof beat pretty much without variation - no change of pace, no change of rhythm. I can see why it may seem pretty boring to a classical music fan, but u need that stuff to dance to IMO.

 

respect

:-)

Sam

[Guest Pete]

I chosed the wrong words before (or actually i was just fukkin' with u). I really like ure stuff elysium, u made som classic goa songs that always will put a smile on my lips.

I think that classical music is not comparable with trance music. Classic music mostly rely purely on harmonys while trance music has another dimension in the sound picture. When listening to trans it is at least 50% in the sound.. u know that special feeling of a pure sawtooth wave, which is sloowly LP filtered with higher and higher cutoff frequency. That does not exist in classical music.

 

Classical music might be more complex in theory, but sometimes less is more. A couple of Blip!, beep and blops backed up by a steady bassline and a heavy kick can be enuff. It does not have to be complicated.

[Guest Pete]

I just remembered a song that uses a sample from a classical piece in the coolest way: Parasense - Mendelson. Very cool (and funny) song!

[Guest hoffy]

I think theoretically it is possible to produce a psy trance song that is as structuraly complex and musically in-depth as a classical composition... but i'm yet to hear it....

 

.. and i would be quite suprised if any one bothered actually bothered writing a musical masterpeice then spent another year tweaking all the eq's...

 

having said that, there are similarities i see in classical music; That they both tell a story, or encapsulate a journey... and some of the melodies and changes remind me of classical peices i listen to.. and thats about it.

 

peace!

[Guest stringtheory]

It is foolish to say that classical music and psytrance do not have similarities. Quite Frankly they do. Classical music is complex, it is structured in movements and pieces, using many pieces to create a larger, more precise structure. Psytrance does the same thing. It is epic in proportion, taking many elements and placing them together in the hopes of producing a complex, intelligent large and beautiful structure. The reality is all music has similarities. Some forms are more similiar than others. Take some progressive rock groups for example. Tool's new album "Lateralus", is a brilliant piece of art. It very much reminds me of classical music. It is a complex, mulit-part piece of work. Taking many individual pieces and putting them together to make a grand piece. And to say that Simon Posford cannot be compared to Beethoven is Assinine! They do different things, produce different music, but are equally brilliant. Is B.B. King not a genius on the guitar ? Are Pink Floyd not geniuses ?? The complexity and flowing nature of their music has genius written all over it. Do not let social preconceptions cloud and block your thinking. Genius, Beauty, and True Art come in many forms and functions. Open Your Mind Friends. That is how we evolve.

[Guest Elysium Project]

The problem here stringtheory is that where you see Simon Posford as just as brilliant and a genious musician as Bethoven I don't. It's a matter of opinion, way of understanding music techniques, skills and indeed taste!

 

Yes you can claim over and over again that he's a genious and that it's assinine but the fact remain that what you consider A will be considered as B by other people. I respect you opinion but do not respect your use of the word "assinine"

[Guest stringtheory]

My apologies for the word usage. None the less, Genius presents itself in many forms.

[Guest bugbread]

To agree with sam i am:

 

I'd say the best argument that we can put forth, and that everyone can agree with, is that psy is more similar to classical than other electronic music. Not all tracks, of course, but psy is more likely to use dramatic changes in melody line, tempo, and arrangement than a lot of other stuff (of course, Aphex Twin uses even MORE changes, but not in a way reminiscent of classical music).

 

And to agree with Stringtheory (and disagree with Elysium):

 

To compare things with the same yardstick is impossible in this discussion. One could point out that Simon P uses less instruments and less complexity per piece than classical music. On the other hand, Beethoven did less with the instruments he had. Violins are used for plucking, playing softly, and playing strongly. That's it. It's not that he COULDN'T do more, because the early 20th century composers proved that this is not true. Heck, even piano: John Cage did a whole lot with detuning and retuning pianos and attaching nuts, bolts, springs, etc. All of those were available to Beethoven, but he didn't use any of it. He played instruments like they were played since time immemorial, but arranged them expertly. Simon's arrangements are more simple, but he uses his instruments better than Beethoven. So, in the end, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[Guest peaceful warrior]

I'm with Bugbread and Stringtheory on this one. You can't really compare classical music and psy-trance using the same criteria. They are two different approaches to making music. As Bugbread pointed out, the instruments used in classical music always sound the same. i.e violins always sound like violins, cellos always sound like cellos, flutes always sound like flutes. The same basic instruments (the instruments I just listed and others) are used in every composition. Now each of these instruments has a characteristic timbre depending on the number and relative strengths of its component frequencies, as determined by its resonance. So, speaking very generally, the classical composer has only three main elements of music left in which he can compose: harmony, melody, and rhythm. The electronic music composer on the other hand has some very unusual elements with which to work, which were not easy to manipulate before technological advancements such as synthesizers and samplers came along. With these advancements came the art of sound engineering. This is another whole realm of musicianship where the artist is free to build any "instrument" he chooses. Any and all sound is the electronic musicians "instrument" as opposed to the limited handful of classical accustic instruments. So an electronic musician can build a sound environment (music) more precisely to his vision. Each new sound has its own timbre and timbre has been shown through studies to be just as important as pitch in the overall ability of the music to affect our emotions. The same melody played on a zylophone instead of the bagpipes gets very different reactions. So clearly an electronic musician has a much wider range of factors to work into his musical piece. An electronic artist can also seamlessly morph one sound into another sound while carrying the same melody. This is what I think Pete meant when he was talking about half of the music being in the sound. I know that is vague but there really is something very unique about the way sounds interact in electronic music. What seems simply on the surface like one melody going on for several measures may become musical in another way. ex. Pete's example of the way an artist will very artfully manipulate cut-off frequency and resonance as the melody progresses. So the melody progresses not through pitch changes but through something that is not really even accounted for in traditional music theory. The piece moves along not through harmonic progression but through a subtle and powerful change in basic sound structure. This is just one example of some of the ways in which electronic musicians are using musical properties that are almost completely unique to their methods and means. Do I think that all or even any electronic music composers are taking full advantage of the technology or the involved methods? No, I do not. But I do think that there is true progress happening and truly creative ideas being expressed by many talented musicians using electronic machines and methods. Perhaps in the future there will be an expanded view of music theory.

What I don't understand is why if so many of you think classical style music is so superior that you aren't on a classical music forum and buying classical music cds each week, eagerly awaiting the newest classical release. If classical is so superior in every way ( so that you can't even compare the music we love with classical) then why aren't we all dancing to classical music on the weekends. If classical is so superior then why is there such a variety of musical expression out there, shouldn't we all be trying to learn how to compose a symphony so that everybody can recognize us as truly talented. Does rock, jazz and everyother type of music (aside from classical) really exist just because we have a bunch of untalented people who want to make music. I don't think so. For one thing music serves many purposes and its design is influenced by that purpose. Thats why we love to dance our heads off to psy-trance but not to a symphony. (So which one is superior for that purpose?) Also how you want to express something, the same basic idea can be expressed in many different ways. Music ultimately is an expression and communication, but it is experienced subjectively not objectively. This is why I said earlier that it doesn't matter how technically complex or advanced a piece of music is but only how it affects the listener. This is where Pete was coming from when he said "sometimes less is more". I have been playing classical guitar and piano for around 8 years and have been making electronic music for the past 2 1/2 years. But honestly it doesn't always make me a better composer. Sometimes you need to get away from all the formulas you have learned to truly get something good going. It is easy to try to just put everything you know into a song thinking that it will make it good but it can make you lose sight of the big picture and that is 'how does it affect me and how do I think it will affect others'? Anyway it is hard to explain all of the things involved (I feel like I could write a book in such a short space but I just think that we should give a little more respect to the artists who are creating this wonderful and exciting music we call psy-trance and quite idolizing classical music to the point that it is considered superior in every way(thus lessening all other musical expression). Don't get me wrong, I like classical music, but like all music, it has its time and place. I don't think that classical music is superior in every way to psy-trance, in fact, I think psy-trance is superior in some technical ways and for me at least is superior in my subjective experience of it. It has power, it has groove, it is sometimes beautiful, sometimes strange, full of cosmic melodies, and rich textures, it makes me smile, it makes me dance. I love psy-trance.

[Guest stringtheory]

To Peaceful Warrior: My Friend, that was simply the best short topic response I have ever read. No joke and No BS. Brilliant Ideas and Concepts. Thank You.

[Guest peaceful warrior]

Thank you Stringtheory for your kind words. I was hoping that people would not think it was too long, but I just don't feel that I can express some ideas in only a few lines. I also thought your post was very good. So thank you my friend.