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ethics of CD burning


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Guest shanti

just wondering what people's thoughts are on this topic. i personally buy all original CD's, but does this mean i should hord them without exception? (i think sharing is a great principle!) what if your closest friends couldn't afford them, is it better to spread our wonderful message of light and love? what's your 'policy'?

 

thanks and may the force be with you......

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Guest JanUa

i'm not gonna tell my policy but i am gonna say this ...

 

Some of you might know Astrix ... maybe heard a song made by Astrix ... and just maybe you got a few songs from the internet or so ... well, how can this be??? he hasn't EVER released an album ... and now because almost every download maffioso think's "hey, i got it already, it doesn't have to be released, that would be a waste of money" these guy's have trouble releasing their album and maybe never will ... so how will they make money now? if they have to work to live cause they can't survive from the music industry where will they find the time to make new music? see my point? and it's happening to alot of them.

 

everybody is so happy with this music and lifestyle but it looks like alot of people don't wanna put in the efforts to make it all work ...

 

There ar a few ways psy-trance scene is gonna evolve in the future if thing's won't change.

1. there will be no more promo's or unreleased stuff spread ... this means all the dj have to play and can play only the songs that have been released. so no more surprises at parties :(

2. (radical) if audio maffioso keep playing this dirty game ... artist can play it dirty to ... NO more music releases , if you wanna hear psy : rent the artist.

 

i got this question ... who is the stupid @!#$ that puts as first one a song on the internet ... they don't just appear there, people with the wrong intenetions put them there. This GEM crew and others ruin a whole scene ... and peopleslives and dreams

 

FUC k the Audio maffia!

 

...JanUa ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . ...3ô... . . . . . . . . . . . .

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Guest JanUa

btw ... ever heard of copyright??? yeah, it's written on the cd and is a contract between you and the artist!

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Guest Elysium Project

I am not going to wrath bugbread but only say that it's up to each person to judge his/her actions.

 

The result of the last years massive stealing of music has for my part resulted in that I in the future never will give out any of me unreleased tracks not even to my closests friends. This way I can prevent my tracks being copied before the CD is released and then I might have a chance to actually sell some records before the "hawks" start to burn and swop my music.

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Guest yellow submariner

The psy trance scene is so small that if all of you losers continue stealing music it will disappear.

 

Imagine what that will feel like. NO PSY TRANCE. If you think that you stealing music will not have any impact on the scene you are wrong. There are 1000s of people like you who steal music.

 

Keep this in mind; most psy trance labels do not press more than 2500 copies of a CD [in some instances it is more ie; X-Dream Irritant), many labels only put out 1000 copies or less. That is total @!#$ volume, compared to all other forms of electronic music, and do you know why? BECAUSE OF YOU THIEVES OUT THERE.

 

Stop stealing and start supporting the artists and labels who invest their time and money so you can enjoy psy trance. They deserve to be paid for their efforts.

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the ONLY time i feel it is justifiable is when the cd is way out of print and cant be found anywhere.

 

i abhor the attitude which dictates that you must seek out unreleased music and then scoff at it when it becomes released. it creates elitism and snobbiness, something our scene does not need. how about some love and respect to the artists who make such great things?

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Guest Dovla

hmm, well I'm gonna say something different now...I live in a country where there's one small record shop and there are very little trance cd's and they cost too much...so how the hell am I supposed to support the music I love..tell me that...I'm sorry to say that I download great amounts of mp3's because I have no other option...I can't buy originals anywhere, so I support mp3's...if I could pay the artits for those mp3's I would do it....otherwise it's audiogalaxy for me...

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Guest Elysium Project

To Dowla:

 

If you can download huge amounts of mp3's from the internet I am sure that you also have the possibility to go to online shops such a:

 

http://www.chaosunlimited.co.uk

http://www.psyshop.com

http://www.saikosounds.com

 

There you can buy all the music you want and even for a quite ok price. And most of the time they even ship to people without credicards so you see there's really no good excuse for stealing huge amount of mp3's. It's all good and cool to download mp3's for reviewing music but I do not buy your arguments Dovla.

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Guest David

People that supposedly love the Trance scene and get much of their music by downloading or trading are slowly but surely killing the scene. I have bought just about every single CD/record that I own and I run a record shop even. I will only ever burn someone something that is out of print and will likely never see the light of day again and even then me agreeing to do it, is very rare.

 

You people that are doing wrong know it. You can rationalize it all you want, but just know you are killing the music and carving the tombstone. Support your local shops and markets and in turn support the artists.

- David

UMP

www.umprod.com

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Guest peaceful warrior

Elysium Project and the others are right! Piracy destroys any industry and especially a small scene like ours. It is easy to rationalize your actions but you have to wake up. It is not right. You are hurting the artists and killing the scene. I buy all my cds even though I don't have alot of money and even though there are no stores in my area that sell psy-trance. If you have access to the internet to download music then you also have the ability to buy your music from an online store. The only cds I burn are compilations of tracks from cds I already own. And the only time I listen to mp3s is when I want to hear some songs in their full length in order to help me decide on what to purchase. Once I get the original cd I erase the mp3 off my hard drive. Even this I don't do very often because most of the sites I buy my music from have samples that are adequate enough to allow me to decide what I like the most. Anyway I hope that many people will see that it is very harmful and that if you respect the music and the artists as much as you say you do, you will not continue to immorally trade and pirate the music.

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Guest cyber

To David

 

If you ever have some special deals and sales let me know. My e mail is above.

 

Just to let you know I tend to buy quite a bit :)

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Guest hach

3 things:

 

1. a cd cant cost 20 bucks

2. if there were no internet, 80% of psy listeners never would know psy trance.

3.yes the mp3 trade hurts artists, but neither us and them are guilty. the real problem are all the high men of the industry. sale cd cheaper, youll sale much more, you will not lose, and we be happy too. ja ja je yeah right... youll do

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Guest Mescalinium

I agree with many of the comments above, but I partially echo hach's sentiments that this is not such a one-dimensional issue.

 

The goa scene is extremely underground, and I think it's a valid point that many of us (myself included) would never have discovered this music if not for the internet.

 

There has yet to be any empirical evidence that the advent of file sharing software has resulted in the decline of music sales.

 

From my own experience, my friends', and my thoughts on the subject, I think that for every person out there who downloads music without supporting the artists, there are many others who discover an artist through mp3 and go out and buy the album, or who d/l something to preview it for purchase, or who listen to a d/led album and go to a party where that act is playing, etc.

 

As for myself, I was first exposed to trance through the internet. I bought what little psy albums I could find in my hometown (hallucinogen - twisted, xdream - radio, TE - violent relaxation, etc.) but mostly I listened to music I d/led. Once I moved to a larger city where there were many places to buy good music, I did! I started buying records every week, going to parties every month, and, in general, pouring the vast majority of disposable income into the "goa economy", so to speak.

 

I still d/l music, mainly stuff that I already own on vinyl, or stuff that isn't released on vinyl. This last point is something I'd like to emphasize. Why should I support a label that doesn't release any of their music on vinyl? I don't even own a cd player, except for the drive on my computer, so there would really be no point to me buying a cd. Also, if I were to purchase the cd, it would just encourage the label in question to continue their release policy. If everyone did this, the vinyl medium would die...

 

your thoughts please

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Guest coriolis

what about these new websites that allow users to download individual tracks or whole albums for inexpensive prices ($1 or less per track?). Why do artists even need labels or physical CDs to sell their music? Why not just setup a website and sell your music directly to your listeners, and avoid the insane, exploitative costs of the middlemen?

 

part of what is so unappealing about buying actual CDs from record stores or online distributors is that they cost so much, and you are supporting a lot more than just the artist, in fact you are supporting a whole infrastructure of a generally exploitative, greedy, very profit-driven music industry which is often not in the best interests of the artist anyway.

 

SO, lets build direct economic relationships between artists and their listeners. i'd rather spend $5 or $8 to download an album and have all the money go straight to the artist than spend $20 for a store-bought album and have only a small fraction of it go to the artist...

 

i haven't got this all worked out but thats my two cents.

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Guest Elysium Project

I frankly get really pissed off when I see this continious defending of stealing music.

 

You are total loosers in my opinion and frankly you need to get out and get a job instead of sitting here and wining about high proces ect.

 

 

When people say things like:

 

 

"If there were no internet, 80% of psy listeners never would know psy trance."

 

- Well sorry to say it but there's been quite a big scene going on for years before peopel started to connect to the internet.

 

"There has yet to be any empirical evidence that the advent of file sharing software has resulted in the decline of music sales".

 

- In 1996 -1998 the overall sale for an individual label were between 2500 - 5000 copies. Today that sale figure is down to 1000 - 2500. Is that good enough proof for you?

 

"Why should I support a label that doesn't release any of their music on vinyl?"

 

Does that make it legid to steal the music? I don't care if you suport the label or not but keep your fingers to yourself!

 

 

These arguments are frankly lame in my opinion and do not in any way make it right to steal music.

 

Sorry for my hard words but this scene is getting so damn selfish (too many chemicals??)...no wonder why so many people leave the scene theses days. I for one do not want to be part of a scene where people piss the artist down their neck...This is not aimed at the nice fair people...just at the lame idiots. You know who you are!

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Guest Elysium Project

To coriolis:

 

Do you really think that people want to sit for hours just to download one track?

 

Well that's the reality if you want high quality downloaded music from a shop. The file size would be around 150MB + and I know for a fact that 85% of all people still are on 53K modems. There's no idea in selling bad mp3 tracks to people...that would indeed be a rip-off.

 

So until the technology on the internet is no better people have to live with CD's. If you wont live with it well then it's your problem....not mine. As always....if you do not like the product - don't buy it!

 

And yes the price on a CD is too big but frankly I can do @!#$ about that! yes I can stop making music as an protest but I am not willing to do that.

People email me asking me if they can buy the music directly from me. I think it's a very cool gesture but almost every artist have signed contracts with the labels and can therefore not sell their music directly to people.

 

Again I will say (so there's no mistake) that I fully support people that download mp3's so the can decide if they want to buy the music but I do not support people that download instead of buying...unfortinently it seem that the majority on of the people connected to the internet have developed such a screwed up morality that they think they do nothing wrong when they download.

 

I have listened to people say that "yes but you 100% also got unreleased music on DAT's or CD-R" and to that I can answer YES. But I get it directly from the ARTIST! That's the big difference here. I get it with their permission you don't!

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Guest Mescalinium

Well now you've got me worked up too EP! (I guess bugbread was right...)

 

a quote from me: "There has yet to be any empirical evidence that the advent of file sharing software has resulted in the decline of music sales".

 

a quote from EP: "In 1996 -1998 the overall sale for an individual label were between 2500 - 5000 copies. Today that sale figure is down to 1000 - 2500. Is that good enough proof for you?"

 

Well actually no, that's not "good enough" for me. Or any statistician for that matter...

 

First of all, you only present the data set for one label, which you do not name, nor do you present a source for your information. If one ignores the obvious fact that a decline in sales _could_ have been caused by many other factors besides music piracy over the time period in question, there remains the point that one label's losses hardly constitutes a body of evidence in support of your claim.

 

So in the DIY spirit, I decided to do some research of my own. I checked out the sales figures on the Record Industry Association of America's website (hardly an organization in favor of music piracy or downloading).

 

The estimated figures for total volume of music sales ("based on manufacturer's shipments at suggested list prices") remained fairly steady between 1998 and 2000, from approx. $13.7 billion (1998) to $14.3 billion (2000). The figure for 2001, $13.7 billion, shows a slight decline (bairly 2%) which, when taken within the context of the economic recession, implies no empirical irregularities. It should also be noted that the figures also declined between 1996 and 1997, the last time there was a significant recession in the U.S.

(source: www.riaa.com/PDF/2001consumerprofile.pdf)

 

 

EP also questioned my belief that many have been drawn into the scene through the internet: "Well sorry to say it but there's been quite a big scene going on for years before peopel [sic] started to connect to the internet."

 

I'm not sure what constitutes a "big" scene (perhaps a couple hundred people partying together in goa), but the scene here in the U.S. has expanded exponentially in the last 2-3 years, in many ways thanks to the internet. Party throwing organizations are popping up all over the place, in Seatle, DC, Philadelphia, Portland, North Carolina. Three years ago if you didn't live in New York or California, you could not attend a goa party in the U.S. The international scene is exploding as well. Places like Mexico, Brazil, Russia, Macedonia, South Africa, New Zealand are all rapidly developing.

 

Would this be possible without the internet? I personally doubt it. Music distribution to many of these locations is still uneven at best, and non-existent at worst. Now people can order music online, listen to music, sample new artists, check websites like this one for news and information. New organizations can post information on the web, or use email lists to contact people with directions, and party infos.

 

I think it's both ignorant and crass to dismiss the positive impact the internet has had on the scene.

 

 

Another quote from me: "Why should I support a label that doesn't release any of their music on vinyl?"

 

Another quote from EP: "Does that make it legid to steal the music? I don't care if you suport the label or not but keep your fingers to yourself!"

 

Some context: I am a vinyl dj. I do not even have a cd player hooked up to my stereo. I rarely, if ever purchase cd's. As most people know, there's a lot of music that comes out on cd but not vinyl. I mainly d/l music that is not released on vinyl in order to keep track of new releases/artists etc. which otherwise I would not have the opportunity to listen to.

 

Does this constitute "stealing"? I suppose. Is this immoral? I think it depends under which moral rubric one uses when analyizing the situation.

 

If one adopts EP's conservative philosophy that Downloading Music Without The Intention Of Buying Is Always Wrong, then yes, clearly this constitutes a moral transgression.

 

If one adopts a utilitarian standpoint, the picture gets a little fuzzier:

 

If I never buy any cd's, than cd-only labels will never receive any of my money. This yields a payoff of 0. If I do not buy cd's and I do not download music, I cannot listen to any cd-only releases, which I will also assign a payoff of 0. If I do not buy cd's, but I do d/l music, I can keep track of all types of releases. This yields a payoff greater than 0. So in this theoretical world, nobody is made worse off, and at least somebody is made better off (what political scientists call "Pareto Optimality"). Therefore, from a utilitarian view, this setup is perfectly moral.

 

 

Putting aside the moral ambiguities of the situation described above, I was somewhat offended by EP's rash and overly broad conclusion. Quoth Elysium Project: "You are total loosers [sic] in my opinion and frankly you need to get out and get a job instead of sitting here and wining [sic] about high proces [sic] ect. [sic]"

 

According to his logic, I am a "looser" because I d/l music. Nevermind the fact that I spend thousands of dollars each year buying records. Nevermind the fact that I attend parties regularly, supporting artists' booking fees. Nevermind the fact that I dj and throw my own parties to promote the goa vibe. No, this is all ancillary, I am a "lame idiot" because I use the internet to listen to music I would not normally purchase.

 

Well if this makes me loser and a scourge to the scene, then so be it.

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Guest Full Lotus

Amen to that EP...As a techie, I can also confirm that at present mp3 just doesn't cut it I'm afraid. The sound quality(even at 256kbps) is just not good enough. As with alot of audio compression tecniques, alot of the data is left out, so I'll continue to use CD and vinyl. As for unreleased music, there's usually a reason why it's not released...

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Guest Elysium Project

That was actually the sale figures for most labels in the scene mescalinium..Not as you think just one label. It's called an "overall" figure. - And that overall figure is made by the labels themselves - together!

 

It might be that most american kids only know this music form the internet but that is indeed not the case in Europe and ASIA. Yes a big scene has indeed been going on for years (I have been playing at parties all over the world with around 3000 - 5000+ people) and yes with smaller crowds too. It seem that some of you people from USA think that because the situation is as it is in USA it must be the same around the world..welll wake up...USA is not the whole world!

 

And frankly I have had it with the arguments that "I only use vinyl" and "I do not have a CD player" - well that is not my problem....it still does not make it any more right to steal the music. Then why don't you just buy the music that's on vinyl...? Do you need to own all music that's been made?

 

And you say you're a DJ.... Then I am sure you get paid when you play? ....Well when I was playing as a DJ i used 70% of the money to buy new music. I suggest you do the same...! I feels nice too.

 

 

"The estimated figures for total volume of music sales ("based on manufacturer's shipments at suggested list prices") remained fairly steady between 1998 and 2000, from approx. $13.7 billion (1998) to $14.3 billion (2000). The figure for 2001, $13.7 billion, shows a slight decline (bairly 2%) which, when taken within the context of the economic recession, implies no empirical irregularities. It should also be noted that the figures also declined between 1996 and 1997, the last time there was a significant recession in the U.S.

(source: www.riaa.com/PDF/2001consumerprofile.pdf)"

 

Yes but this is not the goa/psy scene my friend and it's the US inport/export figures which are very different from the European, Asian and Isralie figures where most goa/psy come from...this is the US major industry calculations. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the worlds recordsale that actually have dropped from 25-35% (all depending what country you talk about) over the last 5 years. Again you are basing your knowledge on USA....USA is such a small market for psy/goa and a very new market...please see it from other perspectives than an american perspective.

 

There's a very big difference here and it's a very lame excuse to use some figures that's got nothing to do with our scene!

 

I rest my case...I am sure I can't convine the "hawks" anyway!

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Guest David

I can say that generally CD's can easily be found for around $14 now days, not $20. I can promise you that the profit margins there for the retailer is near zero when weighed against the shear cost of doing business. So many ignorant opinions....such a shame...keep rationalizing and stealing. Karmas a bitch!

- David

UMP

www.umprod.com

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Guest bugbread

I'm gonna have to agree with Mescalinium to some degree: painting things in black and white just creates more escapes for the pirates. If you say "All copying is immoral no matter what" and someone disagrees even 1%, they're more likely to throw out the whole argument. It's like when school teachers say "All drugs are bad and addictive", and someone tries pot and realizes it isn't physically addictive, they'll discount the entire argument, even the valid points.

 

A specific example: I bought maybe 3 CDs a month before getting DSL, and could listen to three CDs worth of music. Now I buy 3 CDs and download 3, and can listen to 6 CDs a month. How am I taking money from the artists? I downloaded "Crystal Lake" by Shultz (sp?). It's ok, but I wouldn't buy it. How have I stolen $25 from him? If I hadn't downloaded it, I wouldn't have bought it either. How is it that listenning to his music for free financially damages him more than not listening to his music? Either way, his total revenue from me is $0.

 

I'm not arguing that pirating is good; it is, in general, bad, and damages artists. However, making the argument that "all copying is intrinsically evil" makes ones argument particularly weak and prone to attack. It's not black & white, but neither is it 50% gray; perhaps 90% vs. 10%? A reasoned and sound approach seems more likely to convince people than moral arguments which only serve to bolster the support of other people who already agree with you.

 

Once again, apologies for logical gaps and misspellings, as I am quite drunk while posting this.

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Guest JanUa

no, you know what the damn thing is about this whole fucked up discussion ... that everybody knows what's right but doesn't want to admit it cause than they have to live like that or else they won't be true with themselfs ... it's called egoism ...

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