Dj-Emotion Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 The real question is.... if you guys have problems with getting paid from you releases on certain labels....do you continue to deal with that label again? If they approach you for another song.....would you do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 If I may believe Kluster Stone Age didn't get their money of 2-3 releases from Cosmophilia... you know this is a HUGE amount (like 1000 cds at least of each release?). If you want their money you can start sueing them, and then we are months/years later already... So artists should get paid, 100% agree, but when a label is ripped off by the distributor they should understand that the money comes later (when they had it from the distributor)... 275596[/snapback] I'm sorry to say, but I really think you are a bit naive on this subject. Do you think many trance releases actually generate enough money to justify hiring a lawyer to try to claim your money? And if it's a few months that payment is overdue or the label is bakrupt then it's sad but I can understand it. But from the artists I know complaining that is not the case, so your defense of the labels and their excuses is just silly IMO. Can you mention one example of an artist that is upset because the label is indeed bankrupt or that he didn't get his money in a couple of months after the release? Can you mention one label that have been waiting for more than a year for the money from the release? I won't mention examples of labels here, but it's not only from my experience and there is several labels I know of who keep releasing new material but still go on with the "blame it on the distributors" crap to artists. The money for printing new releases comes from somewhere, so before you belive a label owner crying about not having money because of the distributors just have a look in discogs and you will find out that usually it's not a position that need to be defended in a discussion like this. Is it ok with you if I book you for a DJ gig and promise you decent payment and then after you played don't pay you saying that the sound guys ripped me off so there was no profit, but you can have your money if the party I'm making next weekend make enough profit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Is it ok with you if I book you for a DJ gig and promise you decent payment and then after you played don't pay you saying that the sound guys ripped me off so there was no profit, but you can have your money if the party I'm making next weekend make enough profit? 275797[/snapback] Well, it happens to us all the time :s in belgium it's normal as a dj that you don't get any money when the organiser had no profit... If it is fun? No, of course not as I pay enough for my cds and I put alot of efford in every dj set, but on the other hand I can understand. And if they really give me my money after their next party I would be happy already anyway, I see your point, if you are an artist and you get no money for your work it's not fun of course, but ok, to conclude this topic... Work with clear contracts all the time and there can be no real problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 magazines, flyers, posters, radio promotion etc etc. launch parties - proper promoton in the real world. 275760[/snapback] Of course, but that all costs money, so it depends on how big you see your label... For a bigger label that is necessary... But for smaller labels psynews and Isratrance is very easy simply because it is free advertisement of course! But my experience is the best way to sell alot is on parties... I think 80% of people on goa parties know nothing about the music... And they don't care... but if they have the chance to buy a cd for 10€ on a party, they will be easily persuaded... I've sold over 100 Filteria cds in Belgium alone like that Like you said, bring the music to the real world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 That situation with 12 Moons totally sucks... album of the year and he doesn't even get paid. Shoulda gone with Dragonfly :/ I don't see why the truth doesn't come out more often. If the labels aren't paying, why are we buying the music from them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Psychiatrist Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 I don't see why the truth doesn't come out more often. If the labels aren't paying, why are we buying the music from them? 275858[/snapback] That's what i am asking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Lotus Bleu Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 I agree with Basilisk, still too much silences/taboos in this scene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukiro Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 That situation with 12 Moons totally sucks... album of the year and he doesn't even get paid. Shoulda gone with Dragonfly :/ I don't see why the truth doesn't come out more often. If the labels aren't paying, why are we buying the music from them? 275858[/snapback] Good point - arguing against copying is pretty futile when even the labels screw artists over. But I'd like to think that those cases are in minority. Regarding the 12 Moons case - The label made a very generous offer, which is why he signed with them in the first place. I've heard some people say that maybe he should have known there would be trouble with the payment of such a contract in times like these, but a contract is still a contract. And up until then, I had the biggest confidence in Candyflip so I could never have guessed they would offer something they can't hold, and neither did Michael. Now, to play the devils advocate, I must add that Candyflip is in a tough spot regarding this as well - If they never intended to screw him over but later realized that they could never fulfill their part of the agreement, I guess they were struck by panic and made some poorly thought-through decisions. After all, the margins are extremely slim in this scene and I doubt many labels have all that much in the bank, so if they can't pay, they really can't pay. In an optimistic attempt to stall for time while trying to get the money, they made further promises to Michael that they ended up being unable to keep, making the situation even worse. Since he's a friend of mine I'm very biased in all this, but the above is pretty much just a re-cap of what has been said on Istratrance combined with my own theories, so I'm not speaking on behalf of him or on basis of some insider information. Those who are curious should dig up the threads on Isratrance and draw their own conclusions. (For what it's worth, I actually bought a Candyflip CD after this debacle...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukiro Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Work with clear contracts all the time and there can be no real problems! 275843[/snapback] As is evident from the 12 Moons case, no contract in the world can save you from a non-paying label... So with all due respect, I think you are being somewhat naïve here. But as there is no certain way of avoiding all such risks (even self-publishing might go wrong if the distributor(s) start trouble), I think you will simply have to face these risks as a producer, or chose to not release any music commercially at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 That's not naieve, in Belgium you have some kind of court for lower amounts of money (below 5000€ I think) called "vredegerecht" => peacecourt?, and if you have a contract, you'll be right within a few seconds... What's the use of a contract otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukiro Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 That's not naieve, in Belgium you have some kind of court for lower amounts of money (below 5000€ I think) called "vredegerecht" => peacecourt?, and if you have a contract, you'll be right within a few seconds... What's the use of a contract otherwise? 275871[/snapback] I think you're missing the point - if the label or artist is not Belgian, what can a Belgian court do? Surely there are similar things in other countries, but if the label has no money, how does it matter wether you have the contract and court on your side or not? In fact, plenty of labels of today aren't even proper registered companies which makes it even harder to go after them with legal means. I know of one fairly large artist in this scene that got sick and tired of his label not paying, so after about a year of the label managers stalling, he reported the label to the authorities to force them to pay. Well, frmo what I heard he eventually got most of his money, but he obviously didn't get to release on that (big) label again. After this, the word about what happened apparantly got spread among labels has kept him from getting a new contract elsewhere. So by going into a fight with the label you might harm yourself more than you think. In 12 Moons case he is pretty much giving up producing trance, so he doesn't care about this bit, and that's why we get this rare look inside the machinery behind the labels. So, essentially, a contract is no guarantee, no security. Not in this scene at least. Obviously you should make sure the contract is correctly written and perhaps even have a lawyer look at it before you sign, because that won't hurt even if the lawyer will charge you 100 euro, but there are still so many things that can happen that will render you unpaid and with no chance of fixing the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Work with clear contracts all the time and there can be no real problems! 275843[/snapback] You might as well work with muddy toilet paper, because like I said there is just not enough money to involve a lawyer anyway so the contract is not wort anything. Trust and reputation is the only way to try to make sure you don't get screwed. Well, it happens to us all the time :s in belgium it's normal as a dj that you don't get any money when the organiser had no profit...Do you get more paid than what was agreed when the arrangers make a lot of profit? In my experience not, so I don't think it's justified to not pay because you fail on some parties. I did a few parties myself, and the thought to not pay the DJ's never crossed my mind when I made a loss. Thats just how it goes when you arrange parties if you are not very organized, and if you only want to have profit and never loose money you shouln't be making parties or you have to be very good at promoting. To skip on agreements made with artists or DJ's should not be an option IMO. Why not try to explain that you didn't make enough money to the sound or venue owners instead? As to why to buy records... To do it to support the artists seems like a strange reason to me. I think most people buy records because they look nice on the shelf or because of a obsession with collecting. If you are concerned with supporting the artists it's very easy to get their email address and send them a paypal payment instead of spending almost $20 on an album to give less than $1 to the artist. Sorry for whinching so much....I did not want to try to point fingers at any bad labels really, but Anoebis defense of the number one lame excuse made me have to respond. There is of course some good labels as well. Most of the serious labels that knew how to run a business and had the money to do it stopped when trance idid not sell so well anymore. To run a label today in a just way you have to be fantically dedicated and I can say that for example Guiseppe from Parvatti is for all I know very fair and is working hard to release music he belives in and seems more concerned with making sure the artists get their share than getting a profit from running the label. Or Shlabbaduerst is a fine example of a sensible way to release underground music. Since there is no money to be earned really on underground party music, why bother with the big machinery of distributors and shops when there is less risky and less costly ways of getting the music out to the people who like to get hold of it? But on every label owner like them it seems to be 10 that can't get things together, don't care about keeping their deals with the artists or simply do not have the neccessary finances to run a business. In any normal business they would be declared bankrupt very quickly, but since they make sure to pay the pressing of CD's the small amounts that artists should have is not enough to bother to go to the bailiff with, hence they can go on running a shoddy business for quite many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 That's not naieve, in Belgium you have some kind of court for lower amounts of money (below 5000€ I think) called "vredegerecht" => peacecourt?, and if you have a contract, you'll be right within a few seconds... What's the use of a contract otherwise? 275871[/snapback] Ok...I was a bit harsh...it's worth a bit more than toilet paper sometimes. You can go with your contract to the bailiff in sweden also I guess if you and the label is Swedish, but since we are talking about royalties I doubt they will deal with it since it normally should go thru the royalty organisation. If the label and artist is registered with the royalty organisation then they will if neccessary provide lawyers to claim your money what i have understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 Well yes, as you said the most important between a label and an artist is trust... Try to work together with people you are able to trust, so there is no need for fights afterwards... And if shit happens, there are several solutions, but I agree that it may be MUCH more work to get your few 100€ by court then just work for it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trolsk Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I think you're missing the point - if the label or artist is not Belgian, what can a Belgian court do? Surely there are similar things in other countries, but if the label has no money, how does it matter wether you have the contract and court on your side or not? The label will then be bankrupt and no more artists will be screwed over and over again, and we could really use a lot of bankrupts in this scene. In fact, plenty of labels of today aren't even proper registered companies which makes it even harder to go after them with legal means. Rule of thumb: don't make any business with something that isn't a business. I know of one fairly large artist in this scene that got sick and tired of his label not paying, so after about a year of the label managers stalling, he reported the label to the authorities to force them to pay. Well, frmo what I heard he eventually got most of his money, but he obviously didn't get to release on that (big) label again. After this, the word about what happened apparantly got spread among labels has kept him from getting a new contract elsewhere. So by going into a fight with the label you might harm yourself more than you think. There's another angel to this, if the artists talked amongst themselves about good and bad labels then noone would sign to the bad labels and be screwed over and over again. If labels doesn't want to sign this artists because he did the right thing, then these labels are probably planning to screw him again, so he isn't really missing out on anything. In my opinion this problem must be solved by the artists themselves. Here are some basic ideas: - while your on tour, talk to your fellow artists, are they signed to a bad label, spread the word and don't sign to that label. - If the label you're thinking of signing to isn't transparent about its business then you should probably think twice. - If the label you're thinking of signing to can't present you with a proper contract, think twice. - Contact artists that are already signed to the label and ask what their experience of the label is. - Spread the word to us, the consumers, then we can choose not to support the label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindrift Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I agree with what you say Trolsk, but you have to keep in mind how the music industry works in general. There is always artitst dying to get a release or a gig. Big mainstream labels like EMI and Sony have ripped of a lot of artists in their days, there is sevreal books on that subject detaling how some of the biggest artists in the record industry got totally screwed in their contracts. If we talk about signing with big serious labels the contract is not an A4 page of paragraphs, it's more like a phonebook, and it will cost you a lot more than $100 to get a lawyer to look thru the deal. Usually a new artists get so excited when a massive label want to sign them so they hardly consider the terms. And if you bitch abou the deal there is pleanty of more innocent artists eager to get a release at any cost, or they do like nowadays, don't sign artists but buy the track from a songwriter and find a singer and dancer to perform it and hence create the artist themself. So EMI don't have problems finding new artists in spite of their history. This scene is a of course different in a lot of aspects, but the thing that is the same is that there is always plenty of artists available that will not give the labels trouble and will hardly look at the contract. And even if the contract will maybe only be an A4 page it just don't make sense to pay $100 if you find a very cheap lawyer to look thru the contract on a deal many times worth about $200. So what ukiro say is correct many times, bitch to much and you will not get releases. And bitching behind the labels back with other artists and in forums will easily backfire as well. I do think that artists in general should be more demanding on the labels, but as long as there is a lot of artists that is eager enough to not put strict demands in the contracts the ones that do will surely get less releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trolsk Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I do think that artists in general should be more demanding on the labels, but as long as there is a lot of artists that is eager enough to not put strict demands in the contracts the ones that do will surely get less releases. 276265[/snapback] I guess that what this scene could use is some kind of international psy-trance artists organization. Such an organization could outline the "should be in theres" and "shouldn't be in theres" of a basic contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest .::E.P Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I've had my share of demands in contracts (after signing a very bad contract when i started) and i can easily say that not many labels like that you demand their "standard" contracts changed. When it come to public talking about bad labels i mostly get the feeling that people dont really want to hear about it. There's many examples on isratrance how an artists have tried to warn other artists about a dodgy label just to see himself attacked by varios groups of people and asked to take it private. I can only agree that the "contracts" in this scene is less worth than toiletpaper and that a lawsuit will be to stretch things too far simply because it will cost more than you'll gain from it. The only solution is to release your own music or play russian roulette until you find a label you can trust... But after trust other questions like "do they know anything about running a label and selling your music?" appear. Sadly the most professional label's promotion and sales wise are in my experience also the ones that are best at taking advantage of the artists = the biggest sharks.. Most of the time it's a no win situation...sadly. It have to be said that i currently work with a few labels I do trust quite a lot . When it come to promotion and sale I'll have to see how they work before I can say if they are professional in that department. But one things for sure. They have alot of passion for the music. Thats always a very good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest .::E.P Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I guess that what this scene could use is some kind of international psy-trance artists organization. Such an organization could outline the "should be in theres" and "shouldn't be in theres" of a basic contract. 276283[/snapback] If your organised in your national musician organisation you can get most legal help there with your contracts... even for free.. Well thats how it work in Denmark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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