labels interacting with their costumers

[RAH]

so tip world is going to be:

 

running a competition-promotion on this album.... some new v.a coming up, within the cd we will be directing people to the website to fill in a reaction sheet on the album.

By doing this they will enter a draw and the prize is free cd's for a year for 2 lucky winners. This way we are hoping to generate some interaction between the label and its customers and we want people to feel like they are a little involved in the future of Tip.

so far so good huh? i mean if more labels asked for the buyer's input on what they think of what they are releasing... is an interesting idea... everything good, until:

 

 

At the same time, we will build up our emailing list as we will soon be emailing Raja Ram postcards. A good way to advertise directly to Tipsters and inform industry people while not filling inboxes with marketing rubbish. We will have a bit of Raj blurb-drawings as well as release info and hopefully it will be entertaining and not junk mail or pure trumpet blowing.

anyway...

[amphiton]

Something like a reality-show or a StarFactory?

[moni]

hahahahaha funny one RAH

 

anyway ... labels should cut the crap and try to come up with meaningful solutions for promotion and sales increasing.

 

like for example ... find a way to sell their releases at a decent price according to the financial-economic level of the countries.

yes, what i'm saying is that eastern europe cannot afford to buy CDs the way western europe can.

if a psyboy from Ukraine earns about 150 Euro per month, how many CDs will you expect him to buy say .. per year? is it his fault that he's eastern european? no.

 

also, i heard that in Brasil the average salary is 400-500 USD per month.

so i suppose they're not massive CDs buyers either. right?

 

food, heat, electricity, water, clothes are human basic needs. CDs owning is not a basic human need.

 

and then artists & labels complain that people download instead of buying.

 

oh well .. another useless post ...

[amphiton]

like for example ... find a way to sell their releases at a decent price according to the financial-economic level of the countries.

yes, what i'm saying is that eastern europe cannot afford to buy CDs the way western europe can.

if a psyboy from Ukraine earns about 150 Euro per month, how many CDs will you expect him to buy say .. per year? is it his fault that he's eastern european? no.

384488[/snapback]

Yeah, yeah! Cut the prices!

[moni]

hey, i was dead serious

 

wanna know what i did a couple of days ago?

the psy scene in Romania is small, small .. it needs a lot of promotion.

people from various corners of the country know me already, and at our last party asked me for some good new music.

so

i live in the central area of the country.

i burned 5 CDs containing the best releases of 2004-2005 (27-28 albums and compilations) and sent them to west Romania.

another guy from north is waiting for same thing to happen to him. so yes. i will burn some more CDs, and send them to north of the country.

 

now, what i'm doing is not what i would call, economically speaking, a correct marketing strategy. but i'm not a label. i don't win anything from this. and yet i am more motivated to promote? heh, wtf, something sounds a bit strange here.

[el brujo]

well Moni is right

here in Turkey the situation is exactly the same

people earn around 250euros basically

if you are a uni graduate, it can go up to 400 to 800 a month for the first year

So it is very very hard to pay all the expenses (living) and buy the cds

In here our turkish cd vendors (who release shit records of pop muic) managed to sell cd s for around 4-8 euros, so it can be done

They have sleeve and everything and original cd s with a lot of promotion

I wonder how can there be a way to do that, really do not know

It is also very hard to get cd s from overseas because when your total buy is over 100euros they say you bought for commercial purposes and make you pay customs fees which doubles the payment

It has been very hard to get all the cds throughout the years, if only I havent travelled and lived outside Turkey I wouldnt be able to get my music anyways

and believe me there are many people willing to pay for original cd s here if only they could afford it

 

well done Moni good insight

[moni]

this is the second time i post this stuff on a forum.

i don't expect too many replies to my post ...

 

been there before. people don't care .. they'd rather go and laugh at some full on release instead of actually becoming a lil bit serious, using brain, showing interest, etc.

 

eastern europe is looked down at and its big potential is totally ignored. fools.

 

oh well

[phobium]

And then there's us, on the "other side". A cd in Norway costs around 20 - 25 € in normal shops and people accept that. "Luckily" there hardly any electronic music there, so I must order online for a much better price

But as an artist, living in Norway and making psy is not very rewarding economically. The amount of money you got for a track on a compilation is the same amount of money you get for working the cashregister at your local supermarket on a saturday.

[Tatsu]

hahahahaha funny one RAH

 

anyway ... labels should cut the crap and try to come up with meaningful solutions for promotion and sales increasing.

 

like for example ... find a way to sell their releases at a decent price according to the financial-economic level of the countries.

yes, what i'm saying is that eastern europe cannot afford to buy CDs the way western europe can.

if a psyboy from Ukraine earns about 150 Euro per month, how many CDs will you expect him to buy say .. per year? is it his fault that he's eastern european? no.

 

also, i heard that in Brasil the average salary is 400-500 USD per month.

so i suppose they're not massive CDs buyers either. right?

 

food, heat, electricity, water, clothes are human basic needs. CDs owning is not a basic human need.

 

and then artists & labels complain that people download instead of buying.

 

oh well .. another useless post ...

384488[/snapback]

Sure it would be better for the people living in countries with smaller wages that the CDs and also the other stuff is cheaper. But with stuff like CDs and DVDs there is a problem: It would be very easy for people from Switzerland for example to order stuff from that countries to save money. So stores in hungary making a good profit with it (nothing bad about that of course) and Swiss stores will have less sales. This is not the main problem, but like this the labels and the rest of the industry involved make less money because they sell more of the cheaper CDs. This means it is nearly equal to them like cutting down all the prices. I guess because of this your vision will unfortunately never come true.

[moni]

Sure it would be better for the people living in countries with smaller wages that the CDs and also the other stuff is cheaper. But with stuff like CDs and DVDs there is a problem: It would be very easy for people from Switzerland for example to order stuff from that countries to save money. So stores in hungary making a good profit with it (nothing bad about that of course) and Swiss stores will have less sales. This is not the main problem, but like this the labels and the rest of the industry involved make less money because they sell more of the cheaper CDs. This means it is nearly equal to them like cutting down all the prices. I guess because of this your vision will unfortunately never come true.

384554[/snapback]

yeah well, or i could also buy CDs the cheap way and send them to you. some sort of black market ha?

there is always a risk when working with money.

 

it's not that simple to trick companies. unless stupid people runs them.

people that have brains will be able to find solutions.

purchasing and delivery costs kindof go together. balance them accordingly.

if i make a price for Eastern Europe, i make it so that my target buyer is actually the one who purchases the CDs.

 

there are ways.

 

in the end, if the price goes down, the demand will go up.

your profit per unit will be smaller, but the sales increase, the result will be an increase of profit.

when the price is high, the demand is smaller, the profit per unit is bigger, but the sales figures are lower.

on a short term, there may not be seen an important change in the profit. but on long term, i think it can actually be a good move.

[moni]

But as an artist, living in Norway and making psy is not very rewarding economically. The amount of money you got for a track on a compilation is the same amount of money you get for working the cashregister at your local supermarket on a saturday. 

384531[/snapback]

well, you, as an artist / producer, have to face competition

plus what i said about sales and downloads.

[moni]

on a second thought, maybe the cost of innovation and development would be too high for this bussiness, so maybe they don't wanna bother trying to find solutions.

[Tatsu]

To be honest I don't know enough about international sales in general to say what could be done to prefent sending cheap cds around. How could it be prefented that some well-off people buy a huge amount of CDs form a store and then re-sell it for example to Swiss people and make some profit with it? Maybe you can explain it to me?

[moni]

i told you, there are always risks to face, in any bussiness.

i doubt that labels would lower the prices so much that an eastern european person would actually see a "bussiness" opportunity here.

the black market DOES exist even now, especially with dvds and commercial cds.

either way, the sales would be higher, thus the profit too.

and then there are laws.

 

for example, if i wanna go to another country, i am only allowed to have with me like, 2 liters of alcohol, 10 packs of cigarettes. anything higher than that would be questionable and it might draw consequences on me.

there are many products here that you would see as really cheap. but you don't see me selling them abroad.

 

 

i wonder if we're going a bit off topic

RAH, kick us out anytime

[Tatsu]

I see, some sort of import/export taxes and stuff. I wonder if this would work, soudsn reasonable. Anyway, I personally doubt that companies will take that risk.

[moni]

I see, some sort of import/export taxes and stuff. I wonder if this would work, soudsn reasonable. Anyway, I personally doubt that companies will take that risk. 

384622[/snapback]

me too

[GaySatanicHippie]

well, i know you dont like mp3 stores Moni, but I just bought the Ticon album for €6.99 at the MPDQX store, half of what I would pay at psyshop, and less than half than the store here in berlin (€17,99). thats a very reasonable price, and i think the label still makes more money this way than on a normal CD.

[Guest Rain]

Yeah, yeah! Cut the prices!   

384491[/snapback]

big time , or lower down my rent

[moni]

well, i know you dont like mp3 stores Moni, but I just bought the Ticon album for €6.99 at the MPDQX store, half of what I would pay at psyshop, and less than half than the store here in berlin (€17,99). thats a very reasonable price, and i think the label still makes more money this way than on a normal CD.

384638[/snapback]

i don't like mp3 stores, true.

i like to have the whole product. an mp3 is still just an mp3 ...

i just like cds too much maybe

[GaySatanicHippie]

i don't like mp3 stores, true.

i like to have the whole product. an mp3 is still just an mp3 ...

i just like cds too much maybe

384657[/snapback]

 

i personally dont like CDs, i was always a vynil person, now that vynils are gone its all digital to me. If an mp3 is 320 kpbs, I cant tell the difference, and anyone that says he can must be a true audiophile or full of shit. and all stores sell at 320 kpbs. and mp3s dont get scrtached, i have them on my computer conveniently to spin with my final scratch thingy, and i can make easy playlists without having to constantly switch cds.

 

but, its personal taste, as always.

[moni]

but, its personal taste, as always.

384663[/snapback]

not really .. the idea is that i should not be redirected to mp3 stores, just because i'm eastern european.

[Guest]

i personally dont like CDs, i was always a vynil person, now that vynils are gone its all digital to me. If an mp3 is 320 kpbs, I cant tell the difference, and anyone that says he can must be a true audiophile or full of shit. and all stores sell at 320 kpbs. and mp3s dont get scrtached, i have them on my computer conveniently to spin with my final scratch thingy, and i can make easy playlists without having to constantly switch cds.

 

but, its personal taste, as always.

384663[/snapback]

I agree with you about vinyl, it has a warmth and certain 'organic' resonance that CD's can't match.

 

In regards to CD's, they are far superior to MP3s including MP3s recorded at 320kbs. A piece of music on a CD has space to 'breathe', the silences are quieter, instruments sound fuller and the dynamics and resolution are better. MP3's on the other hand sound rather compressed and consequently somewhat 'flat'. On a good quality system the differences really are very easy to hear.

[krelmatrix]

like for example ... find a way to sell their releases at a decent price according to the financial-economic level of the countries.

yes, what i'm saying is that eastern europe cannot afford to buy CDs the way western europe can.

 

In theory this is a great idea and would increase sales in eastern Europe as you suggested, but in practice this is extremely difficult for small labels that have sales in the range of 500-2500 CDs (as is the case with most psy/prog labels).

 

A large label (Sony, BMG, EMI, etc) can handle this without much risk or difficulty. They can produce the CDs at a lower cost in the local markets, use distribution channels that operate in the local markets, etc. Their production & distribution costs *locally* are lower so they can charge less. I have no idea whether or not the larger labels actually lower their prices in reality (maybe you can shed some light?), but the flexibility is there. The risk is also lower. If - as was suggested - I got moni to ship me a cheap copy of the new Brittney Spears album from Romania instead of buying in a German store for more money, the loss is negligible since they will still sell hundreds of thousands or millions of copies in the more expensive markets. If 1000 people did the same, it would still be practically negligible. That's why you can see legitimate copies of pop music sold for €4-8 in Turkey like el brujo mentioned.

 

Now apply this situation to a small label that produces maybe a couple thousand (generous figures for most psy releases) copies of a CD. For small runs of CDs, the production cost per CD is much more than a huge label printing several hundred thousand copies. Printing 500 CDs is much more expensive per CD than even printing 2000. Splitting production of a small number of CDs between several markets (for example 1500 to Western Europe, 500 to Eastern Europe, 500 South America) would raise the cost of production per CD substantially. This also triples the production work involved for the labels - instead of dealing with 1 production plant, you are dealing with 3. Instead of dealing with 1 distributor, you are dealing with 3. When there are 1 or 2 people running a label, this becomes very difficult. I know people who run labels and they barely have enough time to deal with a single production run as is. It also increases the risk of having a lot of money invested in 3 different places instead of just one. And this is assuming that there are even local distribution channels for psytrance - if not, then none of it even matters.

 

Also remember that largely the record labels are not the ones setting the prices. They sell their CDs to the distributor for a specific price (often set by the distributor, although I assume there is some negotiation involved) that really just barely covers their operational & production costs. The distributor sells the CDs to the shops for an increased price that covers their operational costs. The shops sells the CDs to the consumers at an increased price to cover their costs. The label has little or no flexibility to charge less for their CDs - remember that they are receiving less than half of what you see in the shops. The problem is not the labels setting the prices too high. It's mostly due to a) the markup that the CD sees as it goes through 2 or 3 middlemen, and b ) the inflexibility of production costs due to the small nature of the market. Nobody is raking in the cash so it's not really possible for the labels (or really the distributors or shops) to do much about this.

 

It's difficult, but not impossible to solve. If there was a local distribution company (so you weren't having to get your CDs from psyshop, for example), this would lower the markup at the distribution level. Another solution would be if there was a local "licensing-only" label that licensed and re-released the CDs to your local market. I'm not talking about a company like YSE that releases "best-of" compilations, but a label that licensed & re-released the *full* CDs from other labels. This isn't a new concept either. In the '90s, all of the Astral Projection CDs originally released in Israel on Trust In Trance were also licensed to UK labels like Transient or TIP. Nowadays, Vision Quest licenses & re-releases most Hommega releases in Japan. Why? It's cheaper (and easier) to license & release an album from another label than to be the label originally releasing it. The release will also not be an import and can be sold according to the local market prices.

 

Either of these solutions involves somebody having the know-how, financial means and desire to start a company. And considering the levels of piracy in the places where the prices are a problem, I doubt there are many peole wanting to take the risk.

 

Anyway, that's my long answer.

[krelmatrix]

*double post*

[GaySatanicHippie]

I agree with you about vinyl, it has a warmth and certain 'organic' resonance that CD's can't match.

 

In regards to CD's, they are far superior to MP3s including MP3s recorded at 320kbs. A piece of music on a CD has space to 'breathe', the silences are quieter, instruments sound fuller and the dynamics and resolution are better. MP3's on the other hand sound rather compressed and consequently somewhat 'flat'. On a good quality system the differences really are very easy to hear.

384723[/snapback]

 

....yeah, yeah

 

my dad has a bang&olufsen system, and i did a self experiment with cd, 320 and 192, i couldnt tell the difference between 320 and cd, with 192 i did hear a difference, but it didnt really bother me.

 

 

anyways, about the eastern european thing, you forget moni that the labels have the same cost structure, no matter if they sell a record in the EU or in romania. its probably even more expensive for to sell in the eastern block, because of import taxes, higher mailing costs etc.... anyways, my point is most labels in this sceneare losing money as it is with the higher price, just imagine how it would be if they cut it. I know this sucks for people in poor countries, and it is unfair, but thats just economics. What you could do probably is press extra editions locally just for the romanian market, but as you say the scene is very small so this wouldnt make sense at all.

 

edit: fluffy just explained it a lot better above

 

anyways, I think mp3 stores are the way to go in the future, i decided for myself im not gonna buy CDs anymore, mp3s are just way more convenient and cheaper. and if something is not available in mp3 stores, theres always DC++.´