fretshe... Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 Just an idea... if you feel like telling a story in your mixes and you want to play certain songs in a certain style that might be considered as crap or to experimental for let's say 70 percent of your audiance would you bend your set into another direction just because you want to please your audiance? I don't mind the fact that a dj wants to please his audiance (we all want a nice party wright?)but maybe the audiance should respect the dj in what he is trying to say, and if that doesn't fit in there idea... well maybe that's the party organisers problem in the first place ... as a dj you should be able to express yourself thrue your music no mather what people say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amphiton Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 I don't mean to sound negative, but what's the fascination with mixes? I've never understood why they're so popular, it's just tracks that are alreay out there but mixed together. For that reason I don't have much respect for DJ's either, they don't create the music, they're not artists, yet people go crazy over them. Why? It's weird. 394641[/snapback] Have you ever been to a psytrance party? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rain Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 Have you ever been to a psytrance party? 394845[/snapback] they don't allow 15 year old ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniël Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 ooopss, fuck, instead of "quote" I've pushed the "edit" button - Anoebis sorry for messing this up 394817[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 Just an idea... if you feel like telling a story in your mixes and you want to play certain songs in a certain style that might be considered as crap or to experimental for let's say 70 percent of your audiance would you bend your set into another direction just because you want to please your audiance? I don't mind the fact that a dj wants to please his audiance (we all want a nice party wright?)but maybe the audiance should respect the dj in what he is trying to say, and if that doesn't fit in there idea... well maybe that's the party organisers problem in the first place ... as a dj you should be able to express yourself thrue your music no mather what people say 394842[/snapback] Interesting what you say, but as a dj it should be your "job" to make people warm for more special tracks... So that music that normally 70% hates will be hated afterwards by only 40% because it had the right place in a set... and it all made sense... Also, when you book a dj you know +- what he will play of course But maybe we can start another topic for that as we are spamming Rain's topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rain Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 But maybe we can start another topic for that as we are spamming Rain's topic 394851[/snapback] well that would be nice.... charlie and radioblalbalbla already messed it up big time thanx for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amphiton Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Just an idea... if you feel like telling a story in your mixes and you want to play certain songs in a certain style that might be considered as crap or to experimental for let's say 70 percent of your audiance would you bend your set into another direction just because you want to please your audiance? I don't mind the fact that a dj wants to please his audiance (we all want a nice party wright?)but maybe the audiance should respect the dj in what he is trying to say, and if that doesn't fit in there idea... well maybe that's the party organisers problem in the first place ... as a dj you should be able to express yourself thrue your music no mather what people say 394842[/snapback] Exactly! IMO that's the whole point. ...but take commercial psy scene (actually, you can take any other scene), what the dj does - he pleases the audience, other aims? ...well, are there any? In this case is there any movement - brain activity, open mindness, etc? No. Because there are no aims set by modern digital shamans, people with knowladge and vision - The DJs and people haven't got any standarts to follow. ...they come, eat chips, drink bear, go home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 Well, what can I say... I had no idea my opinions would cause such a backlash. I actually thought I was being quite tactful when I posted what I did, stating that mixing is indeed a skill, clearly that's not enough for some people. In an effort to both rectify the situation and seek your forgiveness I shall build a small shrine in my sitting room in honour of all DJs and will endeavour to sacrifice small animals thrice daily in the hope their surrendered lives will provide eternal sustenance to the great and mighty DJs. In response to a selection of posts... charlie and radi604 ... coming to the issue .. if you don't like mixes, don't download them .. nobody is forcing you to do that .. and hey, the crowd likes what they like i.e. mixes .. you cannot impose your likes/dislikes on the crowd .. imo, it's more of "your problem" than a "problem of the scene" .. just curious, where are you guys from? which country, .. how do you guys party there? maybe setup a big soundsystem .. load the CDs and let them play ... i am sure paying DJs to spin in your world, is a waste of money .. i mean, the CD player can shuffle the tracks right .. play them from start to end .. we don't need humans for that .. especially, pay humans to eject a CD and insert next CD and press play .. there is no intellect there .. why pay dumb ppl right? 394824[/snapback] I come from the UK. I'm not saying DJ's shouldn't be paid to mix, I'm not saying they are irrelevant or superfluous. I'm saying I feel mixing and DJing is overrated, that it is not an art form. Have you ever been to a psytrance party? 394845[/snapback] Yes, I've been to psy parties, large and small, legitimate and underground, in clubs and in forests, at home and abroad and I've never thought "wow this DJ's good" but have often thought "wow, this tune's good". they don't allow 15 year old ones 394847[/snapback] A most intelligent post. well that would be nice.... charlie and radioblalbalbla already messed it up big time thanx for that 394853[/snapback] This is a public forum and consequently when you post something it is up for praise, criticism or indifference. If you want only praise I suggest you open a thread and clearly label it 'For Sycophants Only'. I promise not to reply to such a thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 In an effort to both rectify the situation and seek your forgiveness I shall build a small shrine in my sitting room in honour of all DJs and will endeavour to sacrifice small animals thrice daily in the hope their surrendered lives will provide eternal sustenance to the great and mighty DJs. 394863[/snapback] I would like chickens then. Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amphiton Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I come from the UK. I'm not saying DJ's shouldn't be paid to mix, I'm not saying they are irrelevant or superfluous. I'm saying I feel mixing and DJing is overrated, that it is not an art form. 394863[/snapback] You should try then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 @Charlie Quote Charlie "I've never understood why they're so popular, it's just tracks that are alreay out there but mixed together." It is what you describe there AND tracks specificly selected to enhance each other by a very musicly dedicated person who spends a lot of his/her life listening to and finding new magical tracks. On top of this, this person (the dj) makes his own experiences as to what will work in a dj set and not - DJ sets are journeys thru trance inducing music which will stimulate different sorts of trance states in the listeners mind. Trance states can be manipulated and taken advantage off by combining tracks in certain sequences to form passages which again create a virtual journey through sound. Quote Charlie "For that reason I don't have much respect for DJ's either, they don't create the music, they're not artists, yet people go crazy over them. Why? It's weird." Well you should, since DJs are the backbone of the parties - Djs are artists, just like producers - They present a different artform than the producer - but an artform it is. Let me qoute something to you from my resume Quote Krells DJ resume "The art of Djing is creating a seamless flow through different trance inducing soundscapes & keeping an open and pure mind when choosing whatever music goes into the experience. There is a lot more to talented Djing than beatmatching & playing the latest most hyped up releases – To create a special & almost sacred trance experience the DJ has to have great wisdom & knowledge concerning both trance states and journeys through music. " Feel free to pick out any of the aspects of that qoute and I will be happy to explain it to you in greater detail. I have been a psytrance DJ for more than 10 years now, and I ask for you to respect that I know something of what makes up a great trance music experience. Quote Charlie "Yeah, I appreciate it's sometimes nice not to have a break in between tracks, especially if you're clubbing, but ordinarily I like to listen to tracks in their entirety. I often find the beginning and ending of tracks are the best parts and mixes always drown these out or cut them off completely." Actually, I dont always cut off the beginnings and endings completely - I do it most of the time, but sometimes I will include them and perform a fade mix (most basic mixing technique). I do this because sometimes intros and outros are very well done and will add more to the experience than just beatmixing the tracks. Quote Charlie "An artist is someone who creates something new from scratch. DJ's use existing material and blend them together, it might well be a skill to blend tracks together in the way you described but it's in no way an art form." A DJ creates a trance inducing experiences using existing trance inducing sounds/tracks - The total experience of the progression of the music, energy levels, mixing technique as well as what ever themes are weaven into the mix which will complement each other is the art. As a DJ you just dont find some tracks you like and spin them in some random order to get it over and done with(like winamp), you try to anticipate what will be the right music for the right time. As such you are constantly emerged in one large transitional state where you might know where you want to take the music and you need to find a way to get there without falling out of the seamlessly progressing flow you are trying to CREATE. There, do you understand now ? You CREATE flow through choosing & mixing tracks which again CREATE the total experience for the other participants in the a musicly induced trance journey. (optimum flow means the tracks will add to each other and make it all more intense/deep/interesting or whatever). Some link it to shamanism / vision quests and so forth - and yes, it does include some of those elements - But in truth, the DJ goes in between the shaman and the musician/producer and lends things from both of those roles + combines it with whatever other talent he/she can draw from. It IS a creative & artistical process requiring talent, you envision the journey and then you try to create it with the tools you have (tracks, cd players, turntables, mixers). Tools+Talent+Vision=Art. Just in case you still didnt really understand this - Let me rephrase it - PsyTrance DJing is the art of creating trance inducing musical experiences, which resemples journeys through soundscapes with a focus on mind altering experiences. (there are many Art Forms within "Djing" - This is the art of Psytrance Djing). The artistic expression is the sum of the total participant experiences created by the DJ set. THAT is the art. Not the mixing, not the singular tracks themselves - but the total experience. You know, deep trance is something skilled trancers can first achieve after listening to the same tempo / sound / stimulant for 20 minuttes (according to the trance institute). http://www.trance.ch - Soooo, listening to small 5-10 minutte tracks will never use trance inducing music to its fullest potential - Which in essence means you are missing out on something truely remarkable if you do not realize the value of DJ sets. Forgive me for going into so much detail - But, its sort of a personal quest of mine to increase awareness of what the art of Djing is - Especially since DJs are more and more being redelegated to a secondary role at especially commercial events since the crowd will go to the party to hear the names releasing CDs and not for the music. Presenting music, freely, openly and seamlessly THAT is the task of the DJ - His/Hers specialty, its an area at which the DJ will always excell generally. (even though some producers are VERY good at it, Jaïa or Son Kite for instance). Best Wishes Krell 394806[/snapback] Krell, an interesting and strong argument. You made some very good points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 I would like chickens then. 394867[/snapback] Consider it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moni Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 mixes are not so popular. or maybe they are, depends who's mixing! i like to download mixes made by certain people. by certain people i mean people that i admire for their taste in music, or that i am interested in discovering their taste in music. by making a mix, i can actually hear what they "have to say", and explore their taste. it's a way to express yourself. you can discover new good tracks, in mixes. i always like to see a tracklist of a mix, so i can evaluate what i want from that mix. say for example i see the tracklist, maybe i know 3 tracks in it. if those 3 tracks are good, i will be curious to see if the rest of the mix is just as good. they're new for me. seeing how big the scene is today, a mix can help you discover good "new for you" tracks (maybe they're old, but you hadn't checked them out atm). honestly i don't have time to go on websites and listen to thousands of samples to discover what's good and what's not. but a mix doesn't waste time. i usually listen to music while doing other activities as well. right now i've been waiting for months/years/decades to see dj mylo post a mix. same with ukiro, he promised a new mix, and nothing. same with GHS and Fluffy ... but at least they did the mix, now they have to put it online. i'd even like to see a mix by Colin OOOD. and mixes by other people in this forum that probably cannot/won't mix. mixing is not hard. if i only had the chance to practice, i'd be a dj right now. with gigs and stuff. (sorry if i seem to lack modesty, but it's the truth ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djnemo Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Yeah, I appreciate it's sometimes nice not to have a break in between tracks, especially if you're clubbing, but ordinarily I like to listen to tracks in their entirety. I often find the beginning and ending of tracks are the best parts and mixes always drown these out or cut them off completely. 394649[/snapback] Hi Charlie, How are you doing today? So, now to your post. I totally disagree with you. What a dj does, is to take an existing tune, and mixes it that way with the next tune, that a flow and nice transformation is formed. To do this, it takes a lot of skills. I am not talking just about beatmixing skills, but also knowing which tracks get well together, when they should be played, and where the mix should start, and the other track should be cut out. It takes time to learn something like that. Lets however not get stuck on Psytrance mixing here, because a lot of the djs out there that I hear lately, they just tend to mix one track with the other, without any love or passion. But lets talk about techno instead. A techno dj uses his records as tools, to create something from it. For instance, when I play a techno set, I mostly use loops from a cd, and 3 turntables. From 3 existing records, and some loops ontop of that, and some external effects, you create a new track, a "remix" of the tracks, with your own personal twitch. The only thing is, you are doing it LIVE, you dont have time to think about how you are going to do it, and arrange it all, like you do when you make music. You HAVE to just do it, and think quick. Now, if that is not artistery, then I dont know what it is Oh, and sorry for totally hijacking your topic Rain, I will be downloading your mixes very soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moni Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 oh yeah, i'd like a mix of dj nemo too. but in this case at least i had the chance of listening a couple of his tracks. yeah Rain, your mix .. it will take a while to dld it .. i have lame connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepton Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 "I know dj's who play all over the world and it takes 4 full days to create a 2 hour perfect mix..." That's the only thing I never understood, how people can MAKE a set before playing... I think a dj should feel what the public wants... And make his set "live", when you prepared one it is impossible to react on the needs of the public... maybe I'm just too old school, don't know... I don't believe in crowd reading in psytrance (maybe when you play progressive, psytek) but I strongly believe in storytelling and flow... I play a certain style (darkpsy, forest music or suomi) I try to combine those styles in one set ....Most people know what kind of music I play so they know what to expect .... I'm a night-early(wicked) morning dj but offcourse I will play other kinds of music when I get booked earlier in the evening but I have my own style wich I will never change otherwise I should go and play full-on cuz that's what is most popular...It is really easy to know what kind of music to play before the party if you know the line up .... It's the organisers task to book the dj's/liveacts in the right order .... the point of preparing a set is to do it in that way that it's is impossible to achieve the same level without preparing otherwise it is useless .... I think crowdreading is far more important with techno/house/electro music.... lol, there are 4 mixes on the psychedelic site and as far as I remember they are all perfectly beatmixed... no? no they are very far from perfect ... It even worries me you think they are .... You play good music and you can play more styles than I do without loosing your personal touch (and I really respect you for that) but I think your mixing is not good maybe because I'm a perfectionist .... There is a big difference between mixing listening/dancing to a mix on a party and listening to a mix at home... Like rain says good mixing is not easy (unless you play full on) and honestly I don't often hear perfect sets at parties (only some full on sets because they are so easy to mix) ... What I try to do when I like a track is looking for an other equally good track that fits really well, so when I play at a party I will definetaly mix those two tracks together this also helps me builing a flow/story.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I have the feeling some things were understand wrongly, I don't mean a dj should play full on if the people ask for that, but when you are playing in your style (for me mostly melodic goa trance) and you like certain style of tracks are not working you better play different tracks within "your" genre... You should try to create a story and a flow while crowdreading, it should be influenced both ways, dj vs people... people vs dj... (imo of course) About mixing perfectly Lepton, it is almost impossible with Suomi and/or old school, I consider a mix good when there is a good flow in it and the melodies continue without going "wrong"... But these kinds of psytrance are not the kind of music which can be mixed as perfectly as techno and house, where you have mixes of a few MINUTES sometimes... I also agree there's a big difference between parties and home listening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 hey Rian why you get angry i can´t understand at all and i still will keep my meaning that mixing isn´t very hard, buy FL Studio producer edition and you can mix so fast and easy because it has features like set bpm to trackbpm or something and beatmap track to bpm, you can automate everything there, if a track is too slow you can set it as the same speed like the track before and make it the original speed when the other track stops to play. If you mix with fucking bullshit like dj traktor studio and other dj studios mixing is ofcourse hard but if you mix with good software like FL Studio mixing is very very easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 noone said it doesnt take skills, but art is something different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 track two:JAIA-sentense to heaven.....i think... track after sillenium: green nuns of the revolution-meggalenic cloud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepton Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 hey Rian why you get angry i can´t understand at all and i still will keep my meaning that mixing isn´t very hard, buy FL Studio producer edition and you can mix so fast and easy because it has features like set bpm to trackbpm or something and beatmap track to bpm, you can automate everything there, if a track is too slow you can set it as the same speed like the track before and make it the original speed when the other track stops to play. If you mix with fucking bullshit like dj traktor studio and other dj studios mixing is ofcourse hard but if you mix with good software like FL Studio mixing is very very easy. 394957[/snapback] are you aware of the fact that most dj's don't use sofware to mix ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djnemo Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 noone said it doesnt take skills, but art is something different... 394967[/snapback] Yeah, and some art (Pictures, Drawings etc) looks like shit, and it doesnt take any skill either. Still its called art. Art is a word, that is used for anything that is creative. Even litterature is considered art. Kung Fu, is considered an artform. Its easy for people that have never have tried to DJ, to say that DJing is not an artform.... Well, im out of this discussion Because we all have our opinions, and I dont wish to convert someone, just because I think diffrently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 buy FL Studio producer edition and you can mix so fast and easy because it has features like set bpm to trackbpm or something and beatmap track to bpm, you can automate everything there, if a track is too slow you can set it as the same speed like the track before and make it the original speed when the other track stops to play. If you mix with fucking bullshit like dj traktor studio and other dj studios mixing is ofcourse hard but if you mix with good software like FL Studio mixing is very very easy. 394957[/snapback] Oh yeah, sure, anyone can mix with a computer. Try doing it with two cdjs and a mixer. Go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 hey Rian why you get angry i can´t understand at all and i still will keep my meaning that mixing isn´t very hard, buy FL Studio producer edition and you can mix so fast and easy because it has features like set bpm to trackbpm or something and beatmap track to bpm, you can automate everything there, if a track is too slow you can set it as the same speed like the track before and make it the original speed when the other track stops to play. If you mix with fucking bullshit like dj traktor studio and other dj studios mixing is ofcourse hard but if you mix with good software like FL Studio mixing is very very easy. 394957[/snapback] Well - Even if you can get a piece of software to align beats perfectly then the demands for creating even better flow thru correctly timed track selection increases. Even when you have learned to manually beatmatch perfectly, its STILL very difficult to mix technicly (beatmatching isnt everything, its only 1 basic skill). If something becomes easy, the demands for perfection & creation increase further, it raises the bar by which you are judged. Software is the future of Djing - Theres no doubt about it - But, technique is only 1 factor in DJing - Being very good at mixing stuff together doesnt make you a good DJ, actually most of the crowd at psytrance parties do not give a shit about whether you are super good or just average- What they look for is the track selection, the flow & the storyline in the set (no software will ever be able to do that - its art - not technique/sport). The thing about technique is that its easy to understand and measure for people who do not really know what goes into talented Trance DJing. But the fact is flow & track selection are more important than technique....... (its the music that matters, the sequencing of the tracks more than the technical transition from track 2 track). Good DJs try to be the best they can at all aspects of DJing, therefore our technique is important to us. Very simple. Any DJ knows that he can choose tracks for the flow or the mixes, the easier it will become to choose tracks for flow (while still being able to mix them at least ok), will actually increase the demands for DJs who can create special sets where a story is told... The future holds no rewards for DJs who are only technicly good. Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rain Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I think crowdreading is far more important with techno/house/electro music.... no they are very far from perfect ... It even worries me you think they are .... You play good music and you can play more styles than I do without loosing your personal touch (and I really respect you for that) but I think your mixing is not good maybe because I'm a perfectionist .... There is a big difference between mixing listening/dancing to a mix on a party and listening to a mix at home... Like rain says good mixing is not easy (unless you play full on) and honestly I don't often hear perfect sets at parties (only some full on sets because they are so easy to mix) ... What I try to do when I like a track is looking for an other equally good track that fits really well, so when I play at a party I will definetaly mix those two tracks together this also helps me builing a flow/story.... 394929[/snapback] sorry but I second that This is a public forum and consequently when you post something it is up for praise, criticism or indifference. If you want only praise I suggest you open a thread and clearly label it 'For Sycophants Only'. I promise not to reply to such a thread. 394863[/snapback] no you went off topic I asked for feedback on my mix negative and positve you didn't give any feedback but started another subject you open another topic about that subject... this topic sucks I'm really dissapointed ! ps: the tracklist is online Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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