ritual om Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 what expenses does a cd require?is the price between 15-20 euro justified?how much profit do the labels have?let's be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherlockalien Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I heard once that the biggest cost is what the stores/distributors charge... but then why when a label sells cds directly by themselves, is the price still the same? or is there something im not getting right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mars Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 what expenses does a cd require?is the price between 15-20 euro justified?how much profit do the labels have?let's be honest 402332[/snapback] Depends on lots of things. At each peer in the distributing chain, the price doubles. A label gets 6€ or so from a distrib, but the distrib also gets its part and the store too. If you guy a new release on psyshop for 12€ it's justified, if you pay 22€ in Virgin (I saw that) for Massive Attack's Mezzanine which was reprinted 10 times since 1998, then this is theft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritual om Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 i want also to ask what is the common settlement with the producer->what % of the income does he take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furthur Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I heard once that the biggest cost is what the stores/distributors charge... but then why when a label sells cds directly by themselves, is the price still the same? or is there something im not getting right? 402338[/snapback] because the stores/distributors want to stay competitive and monitor labels' prices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 what expenses does a cd require?is the price between 15-20 euro justified?how much profit do the labels have?let's be honest 402332[/snapback] CD Printing Copy Right Fees Fees for artist (or royalties) Payment for Graphics Payment for shipping Payment for mastering Payment for promotion in magazines. - The average psy release sells 500-1000 copies. I think, on average, it breaks even for the labels. Some will sell a bit less, some will sell more. CDs are promotion tools - the labels have very little influence on the retail price - Most likely the retailers will just earn more from a CD bought cheaper. CDs make artists known worldwide, and they will be more like to get booked around an album release etc. (thats where the money is). Whether the price is justified ? - Well.... Its no money making machine for the labels... to really answer the question you must ask yourself if you get an experience from the purchase which justifies the expense you had. Try to compare it with going to the movies, renting a movie, buying a movie - Or perhaps saving the money for a good hooker and getting a blowjob (you decide) :-) I like to do my calculations in lollipops - and for the price of ONE cd here in Denmark I can get between 100 and 150 lollipops... OR - I can get 3 Big Mac menus at McDonalds.... Mmmm... I can go to one medium sized psytrance party for the price of one CD. Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 i want also to ask what is the common settlement with the producer->what % of the income does he take? 402352[/snapback] We many times get squat = nothing these days. Too many labels use the current situation to whine and talk our eays off why they can not afford to pay more than x number of money for a track (minimum of a minmum price). many dont even pay royalties anymore to the artists and just pay the artist a fixed very low price per track. Yet many labels still sell quite ok compared to their expenses (some even still sell 2-3000 CD's and not just 500-1000 as Krell wrote)... let me make an calculation to underline my example: x label release Compilation "we dont have any cash". There's 8 artists on the compilation and each artist are so "lucky" that they get EURO 200 each for a track. 8 x 200 Euro = 1600 They sell 1000 copies and sell each at a price of Euro 6 6 x 1000 = Euro 6000 They do very little out of the design (usually do it in the office on their PC with Photoshop). Some use skiled designers but I doubt they pay much though. The pressing plant charge around EURO 1000-1100 for 1000 CD's. Then there's packaging and shipping which will cost around Euro 200 The calculation is as follows: Income (not included licenses to other labels) Sale of 1000 CD's at 6 EURO each EURO 6000 Expenses Manufacturing EURO 1100 Packaging EURO 200 Payments to artists EURO 1600 In rare cases some publishing royalties EURO 50 Copyright etc. EURO 200 Expenses EURO 3150 Leftover EURO 2850 It's apparent that the more they seel the more they earn. The real loosers are the artists that gte ripped off each day in this scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherlockalien Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 because the stores/distributors want to stay competitive and monitor labels' prices 402401[/snapback] so what that the stores want to stay competitive? its the label that is selling, not the stores (in my example in the previous post).. they should make smaller prices, which for sure would increase the buys, and by increasing the buys they can make better deals with the distributors which would then make the prices drop even more Labels should get together to make deals together with distributors, make their own stores, decrease prices... AND sell fking downloadable lossless formats bastards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH2D2 Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 i think many people have realized that and that's why everyone and their moms are opening new labels these days to promote their own stuff... just look at how many new opened just this year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 We many times get squat = nothing these days. Too many labels use the current situation to whine and talk our eays off why they can not afford to pay more than x number of money for a track (minimum of a minmum price). many dont even pay royalties anymore to the artists and just pay the artist a fixed very low price per track. Yet many labels still sell quite ok compared to their expenses (some even still sell 2-3000 CD's and not just 500-1000 as Krell wrote)... let me make an calculation to underline my example: x label release Compilation "we dont have any cash". There's 8 artists on the compilation and each artist are so "lucky" that they get EURO 200 each for a track. 8 x 200 Euro = 1600 They sell 1000 copies and sell each at a price of Euro 6 6 x 1000 = Euro 6000 They do very little out of the design (usually do it in the office on their PC with Photoshop). Some use skiled designers but I doubt they pay much though. The pressing plant charge around EURO 1000-1100 for 1000 CD's. Then there's packaging and shipping which will cost around Euro 200 The calculation is as follows: Income (not included licenses to other labels) Sale of 1000 CD's at 6 EURO each EURO 6000 Expenses Manufacturing EURO 1100 Packaging EURO 200 Payments to artists EURO 1600 In rare cases some publishing royalties EURO 50 Copyright etc. EURO 200 Expenses EURO 3150 Leftover EURO 2850 It's apparent that the more they seel the more they earn. The real loosers are the artists that gte ripped off each day in this scene. 402473[/snapback] Woow, you should start a label then! Copyrights are MUCH more expensive then 200€ when you are registered you forgot promotion (for a half page in Mushroom Magazine it's around 500e) you forgot mastering (at least 300-400, when done by big names more expensive) you forgot sending the cds everywhere (and if you print in Belgium and send cds to the distributor in London with DHL it is 200€ at least and I'm not talking about promos or something) And then I'm wondering which labels still sell more then 1000 cds (not we for sure), yeah, I'm wondering, what are the usual sales for a normal psy release these days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furthur Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 so what that the stores want to stay competitive? its the label that is selling, not the stores (in my example in the previous post).. they should make smaller prices, which for sure would increase the buys, and by increasing the buys they can make better deals with the distributors which would then make the prices drop even more Labels should get together to make deals together with distributors, make their own stores, decrease prices... AND sell fking downloadable lossless formats bastards 402476[/snapback] do you think that lower prices will really lead to increase in quanity sold? unlikely, not by much anyways (my opinion) also, it does matter that the online shops monitor the prices of cd's sold on labels. some shops have a rule that they sell the cds of label X at a certain fixed percentage of the price the label is selling the cd's for. lowering the price would only make the online store lower their price too if you have the money, try to buy from labels directly, it will support the labels, who in turn support artists (no matter how much) more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherlockalien Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 do you think that lower prices will really lead to increase in quanity sold? unlikely, not by much anyways (my opinion) also, it does matter that the online shops monitor the prices of cd's sold on labels. some shops have a rule that they sell the cds of label X at a certain fixed percentage of the price the label is selling the cd's for. lowering the price would only make the online store lower their price too if you have the money, try to buy from labels directly, it will support the labels, who in turn support artists (no matter how much) more. 402495[/snapback] yes im pretty sure that lowering the prices will increase quite a lot the quantity sold.. why? mostly because most of the people who already buy will be able to buy more with the same money, (say a person buys 3 cds a month, but instead starts buying 4.. thats a considerable increase.. I know it would be like that for me) but also a bit because some people who dont buy or buy very little would start buying as for the store and label, thats where I think the labels should get together and make their own stores, make joint deals with distributors, etc (and sell lossless downloads too)... but seems everybody is only after themselves, so it never works as well as it could imo.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amphiton Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Interesting. The questing goes: Fuck distributers - they turn out to be the real robbers. I live in Ukraine, most people can't afford 12+ Euro CDs and they didn't even EVER touch the original and they won't for the next 1-2 years. It's a country with 48 million population (5th biggest in Europe?). But now I see more young guys buying more music especially after all the threads at our forums bashing mp3. So the tendency is clear... life standarts after so called 'orange revolution' are getting higher and in 1-2 years time... We have got a developing scene, if it will be evolving in Russian way (10 000 people at Skazi concert and million posters at St. Petersburg and Moscow, I mean so many people involved) we will have many many 'buyers'. I have also heard that Japanese distributors sell so many CDs out there that everyone is willing to sign a deal with them (true?). So... what if I start an internet shop selling CDs for Ukraine (maybe Russia too since they sell mp3 only at psyshop.ru ). I could work with labels directly. The price of 7-8 Euro could be very OK for an original, I mean they would buy it. Do you think this is a good idea and labels would go for this (lower the price for their cds and more would be sold instead). I will count what investments should be made and if any profit will come out of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH2D2 Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 they need to start making copyright agreements in russia before anyone dips their fingers there... places like psyso.ru make me sick honestly... so no laws to play by... doubtful a legit business will go anywhere. You might say so what if laws are there, they will not be enforced... and that's true but until you have some legal backup to start closing those bastards, it seems doubtful... and if the punks that run the place are reading, here's one for ya... GET A REAL JOB, YOU SCUM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Woow, you should start a label then! Nope I should start to release my own music instead and earn the money instead of putting butter on the table on the labels Copyrights are MUCH more expensive then 200€ when you are registered Well in most compilations I see these days this is written next to the tracks: Copyright & publishing by x (The label name). Meaning that most new artists today do not have a publishing deal with a Publisher simply because no Publishers would ever sign a deal with any new artists these days due to the situation in the music business. I know this for a fact from my own Publisher Warner/Chappell. This mean that the label do not have to pay mechanical rights etc. to the artist and keep the money for themself. And most artists today do not even know that they can sign up to organisatons such as SABAM or Koda/NCB in Denmark and many many labels do not pay copyrights because of that. Most aren't even registered (lot's of bootleg labels). I also know this for a fact. Warner/Chappel are struggeling to get the labels that release my music (and a few other trance artists too) to pay. Even many of those who are registerd do not willingly pay until they are close to be sued. you forgot promotion (for a half page in Mushroom Magazine it's around 500e) Still there's quite a good sum of money left for the label and promotion is an investment that will eventually sell the CD's. And normally it is deducted on the artists royalties (just as all other expenses)... IF the label pay royalties you forgot mastering (at least 300-400, when done by big names more expensive) you forgot sending the cds everywhere (and if you print in Belgium and send cds to the distributor in London with DHL it is 200€ at least and I'm not talking about promos or something) I calculated all of this into my calculation of manufacturing and shipping based on danish manufacturing prices and shipping costs which are quite high in this part of the world. And again. All costs are usually deducted from the royalties.. When the label are decent enough to pay royalties. And the trend of using "famous" artists to do the mastering is a hoax. I can not count how many bad mastered CD's there's out there. Way too loud in the volume and poorly mastered. A musician is not always good at mastering And then I'm wondering which labels still sell more then 1000 cds (not we for sure), yeah, I'm wondering, what are the usual sales for a normal psy release these days? 402485[/snapback] Quite a few sell more than 500-1000. they just do not tell the artists and tell them that they only sell a 1000 copies. Yet some of them are on all the online shops top sales lists and those list are for CD's that sell more than a 1000 copies. Another fact from Warner/Chappell who investigated a little into this for me via the Distributors who hold the accurate sales numbers So when the labels pay the insulting price of EURO 200 for a track and refuse to pay royalties then it's again the artists that suffer. Not the labels. Many do quite well no matter what you write here. I do not say you are one of those labels. But they excist in quite high numbers in this scene - in all genres. They just try to hide it to make more money out of the artists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Yet many labels still sell quite ok compared to their expenses (some even still sell 2-3000 CD's and not just 500-1000 as Krell wrote)... let me make an calculation to underline my example: 402473[/snapback] I wrote "on average" - Some sell more, some sell less. Another factor of importance is if we are talking sales over a year or a shorter period, which is important when counting in how many CDs are initially produced and whether a release has to go into reprint. If you print 1500 CDs and only sell 500 you are at a loss, if you print 500 CDs and they are sold out you pass up on profits. Another thing you forgot in your calculations is taxes. Just because you turn a profit doesnt mean you get all the money thats left over, and definately not for personal use either. Last, where is your promotion costs ? If you want to sell 2000-3000 CDs you will need more promotion for your label that just posting a topic on online forums, ESPECIALLY if you are just starting up the label and havent build up a name (which is in itself an investment). Locally here in Denmark one of the better selling danish singing artists sold around 100.000 copies of his album in a country where there are 5.5mio inhabitants. I dont believe there is another market for that music since the lyrics are in danish. Thats a popular mainstream release targeted at only one country with so few people. Puts global Psytrance sales in perspective I think :-) We can conclude that we dont see that many psytrance label owners being very rich from what they do. Old time labels like Spirit Zone Records who had a very strong brandname disappears and their brand name is not bought by firms like Sony Music - Time Warner etc which really is the same as saying that there is not any profitable business in releasing psychedelic trance. Also, we have seen distributors crash while still owing labels. (thats how Flying Rhino, Spirit Zone and others went out of business). Which leads to a conclusion that its not really that profitable for the distributors either (unless they are good at keeping costs down as well as finding new ways of conducting their business - eventually meaning they are skilled business men/women). The Psychedelic Trance "market" as such goes up and down - but its not a healthy long term investment. And as such complaining about CD prices is pure nonsense. (if anything, we should have lower taxes on them from the governments etc). When moving releases from CD to online digital media (downloads) I think this whole business model will change dramaticly. However, for now - I think its very clear there is no big money to be earned, and anyone thinking that labels & distributors pricing is unfair just because they can sometimes turn in a minor profit need to do a reality check or invest some of their own hard earned capital into releasing music of their own (for isnt is everybodies duty in western society to earn as much cash as possible? hehe). Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Of course you got some valid point krell But i can only tell what my experience and investigation through Warner/Chappell have shown me. Investigation into a few specific cases - but i wont mention names here. What Waner/Chappell does is that they legally have the right to get access to the 100% accurate sales figures of X label via the distributors. And I can easily tell you it's quite shocking what I have seen. Not that they sold 10.000's of course but that they lied to the artists about the sale figures to avoid paying the artists more money. And according to Warner/Chappell this is a very comon thing. Also in our scene. Again i do not say all do this..Of course not BUT I do get a little tired of seeing the labels complain about their losses and lack of income. Yes they need to pay taxes too...So do the artists (out of their EURO 200). And the calculation is in many cases that the labels keep most money after expenses and tax when it come to the label versus the artist income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Of course you got some valid point krell But i can only tell what my experience and investigation through Warner/Chappell have shown me. Investigation into a few specific cases - but i wont mention names here. What Waner/Chappell does is that they legally have the right to get access to the 100% accurate sales figures of X label via the distributors. And I can easily tell you it's quite shocking what I have seen. Not that they sold 10.000's of course but that they lied to the artists about the sale figures to avoid paying the artists more money. And according to Warner/Chappell this is a very comon thing. Also in our scene. Again i do not say all do this..Of course not BUT I do get a little tired of seeing the labels complain about their losses and lack of income. Yes they need to pay taxes too...So do the artists (out of their EURO 200). And the calculation is in many cases that the labels keep most money after expenses and tax when it come to the label versus the artist income. 402819[/snapback] Yeah, i can see how that will put some added meaning to your statements (and justly so) - But, the question was whether the pricing is ok towards the end user, and not the payment of the artists featured on the CDs - and to that, I think we have to say "yes it is". My point of view on all this is also coloured by being a part of totally new labels... but for a lot of the CD releases (percentage wise) that is the reality - Lots of new labels :-) In any case, its not a good business by any standard (just releasing cds)... I also think, if it was in fact more commercially successful you would see more of the professionalism you have found out is missing in the scene. It all seems to be one big paradox in the real world "professionalism" vs "non commercialism". But for sure, there are too many scary stories about labels putting out music with no permission from artists etc. Still, we should not judge all labels by these things - if we do, we run the risk of destroying the foundation for the good labels who are usually the ones having to invest the most into their releases by playing by the rules. (Keep in mind, we are talking CD pricing here, which reflects directly on earnings). I see labels mostly as booking agencies and promotion channels for artists... and once they get up to a certain size they will need some income to keep it all going. Regarding payment, I think its better that an artist will get a certain amount of money up front for a track and no royalties (thereby having closed the deal) than all the other problems that often arise from unpaid royalties. After all, if the music is really good, the CD will promote it and the artist will get live gigs - Also, for the next tracks sold the price can go up, since for the label the "name" is worth more once it has a good reputation. (this also keeps the door more open to experimentation or new blood - not that it means that it is used like that at all though) Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKS Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Interesting discussion... Well, I don't believe that most labels do it as Elysium describes it here... The CD sales IS REALLY low these days, and I think most labels tells the truth about CD sales etc... In my opinion, artists should probably read their contracts more carefully, and actually use the contracts (that's what they are meant for...). If it says in the contract that the artist has the right to see the sales statements the label get from their disributor(s), you have the right to see it... I have released two tracks by Elysium, and he can see the sales statements whenever he asks for it... Anyway, I know he trusts me... I also think that many artists, especially those who have been in the scene actually don't understand that the CD sales now is half of what it used to be... There are many reasons for this, but the major reasons is downloading and too many labels/releases to choose from... Now, for the fun of it, I will make a little contest here. How many copies do you think I have sold of the Quality Relaxation (Chill Tribe Records) compilation? And how much money do you think I have lost on it? As you can see on the track list, these are not among the cheap ones... Quality Relaxation (Compiled by PKS) Chill Tribe Records 2005 (CTRCD01) 1. Entheogenic - Walk On Air 2. Elysium - Fairytale 3. Shulman - The Unexpected Visitor (Carbon Based Lifeforms Rmx) 4. Ishq - En Soph 5. Jaïa - Missing 6. Cell - Secret Wedding 7. PhasePhour - Unpronounced Numbers 8. Elysium Vs. Space Cat - Dub Connection 9. Altitudes - Altitude 1 10. Blue Planet Corporation - Wild City The one who comes closest (on both questions) first, will win a copy of this compilation..!! The artists on this compilation (including Elysium) is not allowed to answer.. The contest lasts 24 hours from NOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinos Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I bet you sold 239 copies. And lost about the same in euros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Interesting discussion... Well, I don't believe that most labels do it as Elysium describes it here... The CD sales IS REALLY low these days, and I think most labels tells the truth about CD sales etc... In my opinion, artists should probably read their contracts more carefully, and actually use the contracts (that's what they are meant for...). If it says in the contract that the artist has the right to see the sales statements the label get from their disributor(s), you have the right to see it... I have released two tracks by Elysium, and he can see the sales statements whenever he asks for it... Anyway, I know he trusts me... I also think that many artists, especially those who have been in the scene actually don't understand that the CD sales now is half of what it used to be... There are many reasons for this, but the major reasons is downloading and too many labels/releases to choose from... Now, for the fun of it, I will make a little contest here. How many copies do you think I have sold of the Quality Relaxation (Chill Tribe Records) compilation? And how much money do you think I have lost on it? As you can see on the track list, these are not among the cheap ones... Quality Relaxation (Compiled by PKS) Chill Tribe Records 2005 (CTRCD01) 1. Entheogenic - Walk On Air 2. Elysium - Fairytale 3. Shulman - The Unexpected Visitor (Carbon Based Lifeforms Rmx) 4. Ishq - En Soph 5. Jaïa - Missing 6. Cell - Secret Wedding 7. PhasePhour - Unpronounced Numbers 8. Elysium Vs. Space Cat - Dub Connection 9. Altitudes - Altitude 1 10. Blue Planet Corporation - Wild City The one who comes closest (on both questions) first, will win a copy of this compilation..!! The artists on this compilation (including Elysium) is not allowed to answer.. The contest lasts 24 hours from NOW 402860[/snapback] Im guessing you sold 486 copies and lost around 800 Euros on the release (Nice initiative btw, and I will buy one no matter if I win or not:-) Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherlockalien Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I already have the cd but another copy is always good haha I guess you sold 400 cds and lost 700e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I also think, if it was in fact more commercially successful you would see more of the professionalism you have found out is missing in the scene. It all seems to be one big paradox in the real world "professionalism" vs "non commercialism". I am not sure about this... As fas as i know, in the early-to-mid 90s the scene was pretty much less commercial, more underground [ am i right?] and the musical quality of most of the releases was pretty much pro-like, compared to todays "psyscene" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 PKS , i guess you sold 568 cds and lost 350 euros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 487 sold cds and 750€ loss... (but I bought it ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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