Krell Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I am not sure about this... As fas as i know, in the early-to-mid 90s the scene was pretty much less commercial, more underground [ am i right?] and the musical quality of most of the releases was pretty much pro-like, compared to todays "psyscene" 402909[/snapback] Depends on who you ask - When talking about the early to mid 1990s there is a factor called "the good old days" which shrouds peoples judgement. First Goa Trance release (pr definition) came 1993 by the first Goa Trance label Dragonfly Records. There were only very few releases, and as such very little competition. Around 1995-1997 the scene exploded due to a lot of media hype of the famous "goa style parties" which again led to more CDs being sold. Still, there were MUCH fewer releases back then as compared to now - Therefore the earnings aught to be better (there was no promotion effect from MP3, but there was a lot of promotion thru the media at the time). As far as professionalism goes - I think some of the crappiest music was released back then - Both within mastering and production as such. Badly cut off samples etc. I think there was a lot of was experimentation and openess - More pioneering spirit etc. Not so many people seemed to be in it for the money, or, having their primary focus put on making a living from psy. Also, I heard tales about labels not paying artists and stealing / modifying their tracks back then also. (just less labels, and less stories). Best Wishes Krell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 As far as professionalism goes - I think some of the crappiest music was released back then - Both within mastering and production as such. Badly cut off samples etc. Well the production might not have been all that but the creativity compared with today's "umpa" basslines and endless effect tracks or killargh 145+ bpm endless pause and build up tracks were in my opinion far ahead of what we see getting released now. Take it from someone who's been in this scene for a long long time as an artist. It's 10 times harder to come up with a unique catchy beautiful melody that really sound good and create an athmosphere than to produce a polished digital track in your computer using your mouse. Filled with effects and smart flashy production techniques. At that time people actually also knew how to play the keys on the keyboard Not so many people seemed to be in it for the money, or, having their primary focus put on making a living from psy. Yes we all started making music because we loved the music but we also lived very very well of the music and the gigs. And we all did. Not just a few overrated kilargghhhh artists. Also, I heard tales about labels not paying artists and stealing / modifying their tracks back then also. (just less labels, and less stories). Yes of course but those people did not last a week in those days.. Simply because everybody knew eachother and made sure they were blacklisted immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Lotus Bleu Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 i'm not expert at all in business labels things but from what i've red on several tranceboards, i've understood 2 things: -the labels doesn't give royalties to artists when they could, & are cheating about sales figures for that, as Kristian said. -2 relationships have their importance: between label & distributor, between distributor & online shops. To be concrete, i've heard things about not very good relations between Wirikuta & Psyshop; between Cosmopholia & several Labels for examples. I remember also a headlabel saying that his sales has miracully double since he changed of distributor (moving from Wirikuta to Arabesque)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 And then I'm wondering which labels still sell more then 1000 cds 402485[/snapback] Twisted Records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krell Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 The contest lasts 24 hours from NOW 402860[/snapback] Tell me I won - I want to win so badly.... Come ooooooooooooooooon :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amphiton Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 oops... lets say I didn't miss the 24 hours. you sold 342 copies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaib Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 i'm only 9 minutes late 297 copies, 800€ loss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Lotus Bleu Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 i'm only 9 minutes late 297 copies, 800€ loss 403489[/snapback] the 24 hours delay have passed so, i just play for fun; i'd say: 247 copies sold,1518 € loss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKS Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Ok you guys. Contest is over... I don't have much time right now... Christmas celebrating etc... So I will come back to the winner(s) in a couple of days... Nick Inzomniac came closest with number of Cds sold. But you are really far away on the money I lost.... Anyway, you will get a CD for coming so close on the number of Cds sold... All of you are really far from right about the amount of money I lost... Interesting to see that all of you think that I earn so much more than I do.. Le Lotus Bleu was closest, but not in time, so Krell wins this one... Anyway, Le Lotus Bleu will get a CD too... Yes, Yes, I'm too kind, but it's christmas, and they say I am supposed to be kind so that Santa will visit me etc.... So, Krell, Le Lotus boy and Nick will get Cds... PM me your addresses, and I will come back to you when I have finished all the turkey eating, running around the christmas tree and sang all those christmas songs in a couple of days... I will also come back with some more info about the sales here... Ok, merry christmas everybody!!! Hope santa will bring you some psychedelic stuff for the holliday... PKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETOX Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 I say around 800-900 copies Will drop another informative message tomorrow cause now i got to go and play cards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETOX Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 Elysium mate there is no serious artist out there who will sell or even license a tune for 200 euros to any label.The price you mentioned covers only very young producers who probably sell their first track in a small label and just want to get promoted.Oh and ofcourse 95% of the Israeli artists in our days.Try and offer 200 or even 300 euros to any serious artist out there and the only thing you will manage is to get blocked from his MSN Contacts And ofcourse there is no label out there selling 1000 copies by releasing 8-9 tunes by artists that charge 200 euros for their tunes.If that was true i would release one cd per week at least and i wouldnt have to worry about anything in the world businesswise from today and after.500 cds comes closer to reality. So here are some facts for you guys since you want to know. Average sales of a decent cd in our days is between 800 and 1000 copies.If a label manages to sell less than 500 cds then a)they must change their distributor immediately,b)they must invest more money in better artists and promotion,c)get more serious concerning their label. A good compilation by a good label sells 2000-2500 copies. Good albums usually sell more like 2500-3000 copies for example.Good thing with albums is that they have a wider and longer life span. Very few labels manage to sell more than 3500 copies of one of their titles and ofcourse i refer to big labels such as Hommega,Twisted and Solstice. Artists that sell more than 5.000 copies are just a drop in the ocean and can be counted in the fingers of both hands,yeah you guessed right Infected Mushroom,Hallucinogen,Astrix and Astral Projection are among them. Expenses for releasing a cd include the following... Artists Advance Money Artists Royalties (for those that pay for them) Artists Transfer Money (you need 150-200 euros to send money to artists abroad using the bank system you know) Artwork (300-600 euro) Mastering (300-600 euro) Cd Printing (lets say 1 euro per cd) Promos (200 euros for sending 50-60 cds abroad lets say) Mechanical Rights For Registered Artists (250-300 euro per track for artists such as Etnica,Hallucinogen and Deedrah) Promotion that can go as high as 1000 euros for advertisment,stickers,flyers,banners and stuff. As you can see releasing a cd has a lot of costs that many people simply never thought existed. The big problem of the psy trance market lies on bad distribution system (my cds for example will never reach Brazil except if i print them there) and on countless labels that float the market everyday with really shitty music.I mean psy trance has a limited crowd and having 300 labels around means that sales will go down for each label individually.Lets say for example that there were 50 labels before 5 years in the scene and that the internet stores used to buy lets say 2000 copies from each label,now with 300 labels around these same stores have to provide their customers with all of the new releases so this means that they prefer getting 1000 copies from the big and old established 50 labels and the rest 1000 copies come from the new 250 labels most of them releasing low quality stuff for various reasons.The market cant handle this situation since the offer is much bigger than the demand so everyone is fucked up and specially labels that put a lot of effort and money in order to deliver a good product. Releasing a good compilation can easily cost someone 9000-10000 euros which means that he has to sell something like 1700 copies of 6 euros each in order to break even. So the question that remains is that is it really worth it (financially speaking) releasing a good cd just to make a profit of 2000 euros in the end of the year?The answer is obviously NO since the time and effort spend on releasing this cd worths much more than that. So as a conclusion i suggest to everyone out there to start supporting the labels and artists that they like by buying their original stuff cause this is the real reward for all these people working behind a label or spending their days and nights in a studio producing music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 kris,are telling that its software fault of what is happening today in psy scene and that hardware is better? i think that its all about people,not technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 kris,are telling that its software fault of what is happening today in psy scene and that hardware is better? 404124[/snapback] Care to show me where I wrote that? Did I miss something or did you just start a whole other topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tox Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Really cool & interesting topic!! Having little knowledge of the psy-trance business-structures, I'll just add the things I know for a fact: 1) Distributors (like Cosmophilia,...) usually buy a cd for véry little more than it's cost-price, that is incl all factors mentioned above by ppl like DETOX. Smaller labels like A.P.-Rec's are almost obliged to accept these terms because they don't have the financial strenght to wait for a long time to get their money back. This way they get the biggest part of their investement back without actually having sold that amount of cd's to the public. They won't make a lot of money like this, but at least they won't lose any either. 2) A "bigger name" in the progressive scene, recently made a critically acclaimed album & told me he sold "only" about 2000 albums worldwide. This came a quite a shock to me, knowing how much our national dance-acts sell here in Belgium, but after doing some math it made sense Ofcourse these ppl can't really live on album sales alone anymore: they make some tracks for compilations to make something extra & try to cash in on their live-acts. & who's to blame them? You can also see that several older labels like Digital Structures or Spiral Trax have changed their strategy dramatically. Instead of flooding the market with a 5 cd's/month, they now only release a coupple of albums/comp's per year & they only press about 2000 copies. Even of the guys I considdered "Progressive Heawyweights" like Vibrasphere! Sometimes this will result in cd's being out-of-stock, which clearly means that they could have made more money out of it. But in case of big demand, they can always have a repress of about 500-1000 copy's. On the other hand this way they won't get stuck with piles of unsold cd's like in the past... Bottom line: if you like this music, buy an original from time to time. It won't do you any harm, but it could do the scene a lot of good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Lotus Bleu Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 You can also see that several older labels like Digital Structures or Spiral Trax have changed their strategy dramatically. Instead of flooding the market with a 5 cd's/month, they now only release a coupple of albums/comp's per year & they only press about 2000 copies. Even of the guys I considdered "Progressive Heawyweights" like Vibrasphere! Sometimes this will result in cd's being out-of-stock, which clearly means that they could have made more money out of it. But in case of big demand, they can always have a repress of about 500-1000 copy's. On the other hand this way they won't get stuck with piles of unsold cd's like in the past... Bottom line: if you like this music, buy an original from time to time. It won't do you any harm, but it could do the scene a lot of good! I think a lot of labels in psytrance should follow this statement too, in order to raise the global quality production of the scene which hugely needs it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 (edited) Care to show me where I wrote that? Did I miss something or did you just start a whole other topic? 404141[/snapback] no i didnt, i just read something you wrote - It's 10 times harder to come up with a unique catchy beautiful melody that really sound good and create an athmosphere than to produce a polished digital track in your computer using your mouse. Filled with effects and smart flashy production techniques. At that time people actually also knew how to play the keys on the keyboard 402981[/snapback] ok, i guess i didnt made myself clear . im asking about this [bold]. its just looks like you say that its all about computers and software that led scene to where it is now - low quality releases and too many wannabee producers? im just asking nothing more, since im just curious . as for me - i think that software has nothing to do with fact that there are numeruous low quality releases and overproduction, imo its all about people . imo keyboard playing skills are also not so important, again, its about creativity and thats what this scene lacks in present. BACK ON 100% TOPIC - i think that selling flac or ape is future and the best way that this scene can take when it comes to record selling/spreading . Edited December 26, 2005 by reger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 ok, i guess i didnt made myself clear . im asking about this [bold]. its just looks like you say that its all about computers and software that led scene to where it is now - low quality releases and too many wannabee producers? im just asking nothing more, since im just curious . as for me - i think that software has nothing to do with fact that there are numeruous low quality releases and overproduction, imo its all about people . imo keyboard playing skills are also not so important, again, its about creativity and thats what this scene lacks in present. 404206[/snapback] No no you misunderstood me I was not thinking about software versus hardware but of a lot about artists that dont know how to even play a note on a keyboard (not that you really need to I guess) and that many releases today are more about a polished sharp production and cool effects than actually about creating music. Sorry if I wrote it so it could be misunderstood TOPIC: I see some label people writing and that's cool And I do not say you guys are wrong. Not at all. But I can just refer to examples I have experienced and also been told by my Publishing Company. And I trust their "investigation" 100%. To Detox. I also have to say yes to EURO 200 to even be allowed to release my music. I am aware of that some get much more but I am not one of the Heavy weights and yes labels do take advantage of that and blackmail me and other artists alike so they can save a buck. "Take the money or fuck off"... Sad but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 No no you misunderstood me I was not thinking about software versus hardware but of a lot about artists that dont know how to even play a note on a keyboard (not that you really need to I guess) and that many releases today are more about a polished sharp production and cool effects than actually about creating music. Sorry if I wrote it so it could be misunderstood 404212[/snapback] i see your point and i agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETOX Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Sorry Kristian but if YOU with a long history in this scene sell today your music for 200 euros to labels then mate you are helping in your way this sick situation to continue taking place by having labels exploiting artists and taking advantage of the situation created by other labels who release shitty music and flood the market with low quality products. Anyway its a big story but i find it really sad not to mention irritating that people like you release your music just for this money and give the right to some shitty labels to tell to younger artists 'If Kristian Elysium charges 200 euro for a track then you must give me your track for 50 euros and a lollipop'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 (edited) Sorry Kristian but if YOU with a long history in this scene sell today your music for 200 euros to labels then mate you are helping in your way this sick situation to continue taking place by having labels exploiting artists and taking advantage of the situation created by other labels who release shitty music and flood the market with low quality products. Anyway its a big story but i find it really sad not to mention irritating that people like you release your music just for this money and give the right to some shitty labels to tell to younger artists 'If Kristian Elysium charges 200 euro for a track then you must give me your track for 50 euros and a lollipop'. 404376[/snapback] Until now I sold some of my music (not only Elysium) around EURO 200 (with a few exceptions) because i got no other choice really to get back into the scene and get gigs outside Sweden and Denmark. The "good" old friends kind of dissapeared when I was forgotten after my long break. If I do not have releases I wont get gigs... It's as simple as that... I do music because I love to make music NOT because of the money but I also like to get out and play my music for people because that's what my music is all about to me. To see people's reaction to my music. That's my reward and have always been the reason why I even bothered to continue the many times very hard work and struggle. And until now it's been more than hard to be allowed to get gigs simply because I am not a top artist anymore. It's even hard to get a DJ gig if you are not some BIG SHOT artist. So you are dead wrong suggesting I sell my music cheap "just for the money"or to help the bad labels... If I was into it just for the money i would fight hard to get much more money! Actually it's just very recently that I found out that I get used by some labels i wont mention here. I will deal with them myself. Make sure of that! I thought all artists on their compilations got the same...So they told me.. But they lied to me! So sorry for being naive after being away from the scene for a long time. They (well known respected labels) exploid me because they know i need to get releases badly to even be noticed by organsiers to get a gig.... Just look at yourself... Have you ever even bothered to suggest me for a gig in greece Just an example mate no offense. So think before you accuse me of being in this for the money! Yes I do not think I should be paid less than other artists on a compilation. I dont really care if it's EURO 200 (if thats the budget of the release) as long as everybody get paid the same. At least the labels should be honest about it so i got a chance to say no way. And I am not bitter. I love what i do and I know I will come back because of my own will-power and my love for music. But i do not have a desire to become a star! So I do certanly NOT make music for the money! But because I love to make music. It's my life and have been my life since I was 18 years old. And I love to perform and could not care less about the money! They are nice to get but I would do it without them because it's in my blood and I need to make music and play it for people. Without it I am not happy. And last... The younger artists don't even know who Elysium is... 99% in this scene dont.. So i doubt any labels pressure new young artists using my name as a reference! Edited December 26, 2005 by Elysium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETOX Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Kristian you tottally misunderstood me,i never ever mentioned that you are into this for the money BUT i cant accept the fact that after all these years in the scene you accept 200 euros for selling one of your tunes.Its not about loving money or not but its more about respect and self esteem if you ask me. Hope my point is even more clear now. And about a booking,mate you know i dont deal with your kind of music in the events i organise or promote so i dont know how you can for example fit in the event with Eskimo and Rinkadink i had in Athens just two days ago for example.Ofcourse not dealing with your music doesnt mean i dont like your music but thats another story ofcourse,i also love Prometheus and Vibrasphere but never worked with them so far To finish with my points i suggest to you to demand what you deserve and not play their game cause if you do so you just keep this sick situation alive with all these shitty artists and labels around. And by the way if you need more exposure and releases and you cant get what you need from the labels then just make an album of your own and release it for free on the internet,this way much more people will know about you since a free album from a respectable artist is the best thing you can get in our days no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 (edited) Kristian you tottally misunderstood me,i never ever mentioned that you are into this for the money BUT i cant accept the fact that after all these years in the scene you accept 200 euros for selling one of your tunes.Its not about loving money or not but its more about respect and self esteem if you ask me. Hope my point is even more clear now. And about a booking,mate you know i dont deal with your kind of music in the events i organise or promote so i dont know how you can for example fit in the event with Eskimo and Rinkadink i had in Athens just two days ago for example.Ofcourse not dealing with your music doesnt mean i dont like your music but thats another story ofcourse,i also love Prometheus and Vibrasphere but never worked with them so far To finish with my points i suggest to you to demand what you deserve and not play their game cause if you do so you just keep this sick situation alive with all these shitty artists and labels around. And by the way if you need more exposure and releases and you cant get what you need from the labels then just make an album of your own and release it for free on the internet,this way much more people will know about you since a free album from a respectable artist is the best thing you can get in our days no? 404406[/snapback] Sorry if I misunderstood you but to say that it "irritate you" that I release my music for Euro 200 could easily be misunderstood mate And again yes I do also think it's wrong that labels take advantage of me or any other artist but then give me a suggestion to how to get gigs without releases. Because it's all about how many releases you got these days. Not about the quality of the music anymore or the quality of the liveset or Dj performance (a few organsiers do still understand the concept of quality though). As I see it I got little choice until I am a name again. Then I can charge them what i want (within reason) and also start to shout at them for exploiding artists And believe me I will do that But if I did it now I would just get the finger mate. And I do mean it. They would not care less because they think. "He is nobody. We do not care". Right now I even have to accept to pay my own ticket and get paid nothing to even play at festivals. I have absolutely no choice if I want to get back into the game. But I do it happily because I know i will be back sooner or later and because as i said I do it for the love of the music. Do i think it's fair that I play for free while artist X get a huge fee and a private driver and star treatment? Not not at all! But what choice do I have? None. I have even been insulted by a well known organsier in Greece when I had send him my latest CD (in 2003). I was called no talent and a "has been"! And this was the biggest oprganiser at that time booking artists that sounded more outdated than me. I wont mention names but I am sure you know who I mean. So you see it's not really as easy as you say. If I say no to releasing my music too cheap or to play for free at Festivals that make a lot of money and pay other artists lots of money too then I wont get my msisc released and I wont get one gig what-so.-ever. So what am I gonna do? Just forget it and give up...no way - never! I was only using you as an example about organisers. I have no doubt that you would suggest me if i fitted the genre of your bookings I do agree with your idea of a free CD and actually am considering it. I am just not sure how to afford to promote it properly though. And one thing is quite obvious. Most organisers suck up to labels and "names" big time these days. So just to have a release on a popular label will give you gigs. That's just how things work. Sadly though. Edited December 26, 2005 by Elysium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 but you still have a regular job, right? i mean if things are so commercial out there and your situation as musician crappy too [to say least]? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 but you still have a regular job, right? i mean if things are so commercial out there and your situation as musician crappy too [to say least]? 404414[/snapback] Yes I do have a regular job. I do not particulary like it because my life is to make music and always have been but as I said I do not whine or am bitter. I just feel most happy and fullfilled doing music but until I find a way to do it fulltime again I will always work to put butter on the table. I just tell it as it is in our scene these days. hmm i sense we are a bit off-topic now haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETOX Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Dear Kristian its ok for the misunderstanding,i still love you anyway And as you saw i already suggested to you the free cd idea. I am preety sure it can get you much exposure and some bookings also,also it would be a nice way of building a stable base on your feet so that you can release your next album on a more well known label (after the free cd i mean ofcourse).I say you try and do it and i am preety sure it will help you prosper in many ways. Also i aggree with you on the big artist names and labels thing that promoters are sticked too in our days,i sometimes fall on this trap myself for various reasons though occasionally i book many people who are not on big labels or very big names in our days at least in order to introduce new sounds to the crowd. So like i said you should demand what you deserve man,selling your music for 200 euros while some israeli kids ask three times more to release their crap is just unacceptable for me and thats where the irritated word comes into the game since you wondered about it,i am not irritated with you but with the whole situation in the market today P.S The biggest promoter in Greece for 2002 and 2003 was me so you are actually refering to the second biggest lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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