Time_Trap Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 again, copyright violation is not stealing. Breaking in the store and grabbing original cds. yes, that would be stealing. you get a product and the creators/those involved dont get anything in return. Copying a cd? Noone loses any money. I wouldnt buy it anyways if i could not download. So , either way, no money gained , no money lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaySatanicHippie Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 You are all gonna kill me now probably, but I got my final scratch now and I dont think Im gonna buy CDs anymore. FUCK CDS!! I always hated the fuckers. I held on to my vynil as long as I could, now I chose to go digital, and when I say digital, I mean digital, ergo high-quality mp3s or wav's. When I buy a CD i have to put it on my computer, name everything etc...its such a pain in the ass. They are useless pieces of plastic. And fuck artwork, if I want artwork Ill go to a museum. And places like the Kompakt mp3 stores already offer all the artwork to download as well, if thats yur thing. And if someone doesnt offer paid-for downloads, well fuck it, its (almost) 2006, get with the program, Ill just go to Soulseek or DC++ until that someone gets his act together and starts being a professional. I would still buy Vynil, however, thats different, and I can run those through my FS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 again, copyright violation is not stealing. Breaking in the store and grabbing original cds. yes, that would be stealing. you get a product and the creators/those involved dont get anything in return. Copying a cd? Noone loses any money. I wouldnt buy it anyways if i could not download. So , either way, no money gained , no money lost. 405040[/snapback] Bloody hell! How old are you, Nick? You are deriving a benefit for which you are required to pay for it. It does not matter that you never intended to pay for it. Many people who steal, do so in the full knowledge that if they would have to pay for the goods or services they would never do so. Indeed, that is the precise reason many of them do steal! In other words, it is NOT a valid arguement to say that because you had no intention to pay, there is no opportunity cost of a lost sale and therefore this does not constitute stealing. Let me give an example which perhaps might illustrate the situation better. Let us say that you want to move from point A to point B. Let us assume that it is a 20 minute walk. Your intention is to walk the distance (you are young and strong). However, you find there is a bus going the same way and you can be there in 5 minutes with no effort. You do not want to pay and you decide to try to ride for free. Stealing or not? Of course it is stealing even if you never intended to pay for the ticket and even if the company suffered no economic loss. Please guys, let us support our small (and perhaps getting even smaller) trance music scene. We all know that, barring a few exceptions, nobody is getting filthy rich. The money that goes into these artists pockets does more than just buy things for them, it also can contribute to a feeling of greater self-worth and encourage them. Pedro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Copying a cd? Noone loses any money. 405040[/snapback] That argument is not logic at all. Copy a CD to a friend that LIKE the music (why else copy it?) = that friend will not buy the CD = the artist and label loose money. I see so many poor excuse here as I see everywhere else in our scene. Fine do your thing. I know it's a lost cause anyway. But do us all a favour. Dont disrespect the artists that work hard to make nice music that entertain YOU at home and at parties. Just do your thing and stop make bad excuses. That just make you guys look silly and surely people that could not care less about the artists that bring YOU people so much joy with their music. My 2 cents of rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 That argument is not logic at all. Copy a CD to a friend that LIKE the music (why else copy it?) = that friend will not buy the CD = the artist and label loose money. I see so many poor excuse here as I see everywhere else in our scene. Fine do your thing. I know it's a lost cause anyway. But do us all a favour. Dont disrespect the artists that work hard to make nice music that entertain YOU at home and at parties. Just do your thing and stop make bad excuses. That just make you guys look silly and surely people that could not care less about the artists that bring YOU people so much joy with their music. My 2 cents of rant. 405049[/snapback] Well, I am always a sharer. I cant imagine a friend saying "hey i liked this cd can you rip it and upload it or copy it to a blank cd?" and me replying "No fuck off go buy that cd ". I also dont think it has much to do with artists' appreciation. But i cannot afford paying to buy their music. Should i go fuck myself? So, would you prefer,let's say, 1000 people that have never bought/heard of your music or 1000 people that downloaded your music from dc++ and among them ,e.g, 400 of them loved it and had Elysium's music in their mind and heart? Personally as an artist i would want my music to be spread as much as possible, even if i lacked the "money reward", i would get psychic satisfaction anyways :} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euchkuh Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 its too bad CD's are fucking expensive. if the price of the CD's will decrease, so will the illegal downloading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I do not see music as a nessesarity to survive in life. Food is.. So the comparison is a bit off i think. 405020[/snapback] Twas a reply to TJM's "If I don't have rthe cash, then I miss out on dinner" specifically. Basilisk, I find your arguements a bit silly and constitute a rather desperate attempt to justify what you know at heart is wrong. Let me approach what you have written in two points. (1) The essense of your arguement seems to be that illegally downloading music is okay because it is possible. And because you feel that people will not listen to criticism, then all this 'moral crusading' is useless. You can call it 'moral crusading' if you want, Basilisk, but you are definitely stealing from the artists and it is natural that many of us choose to speak against it and urge other members on these forums to pay for their tunes. Even if just one person chooses to change their behaviour it is worth it. Furthermore, I would ask you not to worry whether others continue to cheat artists of their rightful dues, just make sure YOU are not part of the problem. Only a selfish twat will sit back and rationalise that because it is inevitable that some people will steal, it is therefore okay for me to do it. (2) You then try to further justify your arguement by saying that 'the money was never in the canned tunes anyway'. Plus you seem to indicate that because artists get paid huge money to play live, then revenue from music sales is either (1) not needed because they are raking it in from live performance and/or (2) it is so little compared to live music money that it is of little importance. This is completely irrelevant, Baslisk. One can steal from the rich, one can steal from the poor. In fact, because many of these artists derive so little money from CD sales, this should be an added incentive to obtain the music legally since a few extra hundred sales can make more of a difference to these artists and labels. Baslisk, your faulty self-serving arguements are bereft of any logic or common sense whatsoever and smack of selfish dishonesty. Pedro 405039[/snapback] Wow, you sure like to assume a lot. Looks like I have to ramble on again *sigh* (1) I'm not saying anything about pirating being "okay" I'm saying that a moral judgement is irrelevant. Talk high and mighty if it makes you feel good about yourself I guess, but it's not likely to change anything. (2) My point still stands - times have changed. Like any capitalist space, the psytrance market functions on supply and demand. There is a LOT of supply right now. The format of releases has even changed - look around and count the amount of debut albums that are really nothing more than demos for new live acts. Luckily there is a high demand for the live experience, even if the quality of many acts is not that great. Essentially all I've said is that technology changes the situation and you've got to go with the flow - anything else is really a waste of time. About my own downloading and or buying habits - I have not spoken of these at all, and I am surely not writing this stuff as a justification for rampant piracy... I usually buy anywhere from ten to thirty new CDs a month. Lastly, I have purchased CDs that friends have copied for me in the past because I grew to like them and wanted the album art that goes with it. So it's not all lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Psychiatrist Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I am willing to pay 1$ for a loseless file. Ape/Wav whatever. The prices today of electronic shops are a bit ridiculous. Especially Twisted's shop. But soon i hope it changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Breaking in the store and grabbing original cds. yes, that would be stealing. you get a product and the creators/those involved dont get anything in return. Copying a cd? Noone loses any money. 405040[/snapback] Okay then, say a label spends 10,000 EUR on releasing a CD. One person buys it (that's a couple of EUR profit for the label) and rips it. Then he/she uploads it to DCC. 10,000 people download the CD without paying the label anything whatsoever. Now the label is in 9,998 EUR debt. 10,000 downloads = 10,000 lost sales Okay so maybe in this scene you wouldn't get just one buyer. But on average a release will sell 500 - 1,000 copies. PKS said himself Quality Relaxation cost 10,000 EUR and he (so far) has sold 700 copies and lost around 7,000 EUR. He didn't lose any money at all then, did he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 (1) I'm not saying anything about pirating being "okay" I'm saying that a moral judgement is irrelevant. Talk high and mighty if it makes you feel good about yourself I guess, but it's not likely to change anything. (2) My point still stands - times have changed. Like any capitalist space, the psytrance market functions on supply and demand. There is a LOT of supply right now. The format of releases has even changed - look around and count the amount of debut albums that are really nothing more than demos for new live acts. Luckily there is a high demand for the live experience, even if the quality of many acts is not that great. Essentially all I've said is that technology changes the situation and you've got to go with the flow - anything else is really a waste of time. 405060[/snapback] What do you mean 'go with the flow'? That sounds like a suitably vague statement. I feel that if you like the music and respect the artists then one should always purchase, not copy, the music and encourage others to do the same. The fact that many do not do so is something that unfortunately has always been true. There has always been copying in music; nowadays it is even easier. But if by 'going with the flow' you mean condoning or not speaking out against it - well in my case, I will 'not go with the flow'. And, no, I do not do it 'in order to feel good about myself', as you put it. Pedro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherlockalien Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 artists get nothing with cd sales... they get much more from gigs... and who´s to say that artists arent getting more gigs because of the mp3 free promotion they are getting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 artists get nothing with cd sales... they get much more from gigs... and who´s to say that artists arent getting more gigs because of the mp3 free promotion they are getting? 405139[/snapback] They may get more money from gigs, but you still have to pay for the music. They may get free promotion from mp3, but they still deserve to be paid for the music that you have. It is that simple. Pedro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherlockalien Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 They may get more money from gigs, but you still have to pay for the music. They may get free promotion from mp3, but they still deserve to be paid for the music that you have. It is that simple. Pedro 405151[/snapback] my point was just that for the artists maybe its not ´oh so bad´ as people tend to portray it... Im not here to say why I do it or why I dont do it.. just showing a bit how things are not so black and white, for neither of the two sides in this discussion, as many people seem to think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 (edited) artists get nothing with cd sales... they get much more from gigs... and who´s to say that artists arent getting more gigs because of the mp3 free promotion they are getting? 405139[/snapback] I dont get many gigs even though i make lots of music. I hope I get gigs after I release my new CD. So I can go out and see people's reaction to my music. But i can assure you i have not had one person contacting me saying "we like you to play because we heard your mp3's". Actually most artists I know had way more gigs when they sold many CD's and vinyls. It's a very little handful of artists that play a lot in our scene. 90% of the, in my opinion quality, artists that release their music might get a gig every 2nd or 3rd month if they are lucky. So the tale about artists making good money from gigs because the mp3's promote them is in my opinion a BIG TIME hoax and a very weak excuse to justify people's ripping and downloading mania. I know it's a lost cause and that artists have lost the "battle". But it would be nice if people would at least respect the artists enough to not flush it in their faces.. I am not talking about you mate... Just in general. Edited December 28, 2005 by Elysium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I feel that if you like the music and respect the artists then one should always purchase, not copy, the music and encourage others to do the same. The fact that many do not do so is something that unfortunately has always been true. There has always been copying in music; nowadays it is even easier. 405136[/snapback] Now we're getting repetitious. I usually reflect on the emergence of the recording industry itself when I consider the ironies inherent in the various opinions on how artists should be compensated. You do realize there was a time when labels were the ones accused of moral decrepitude, stealing the livelyhood of working musicians across the world? This isn't a justification for modern-day online piracy - I'm much more pragmatic with respect to current realities. It's just an example of how things change... I don't personally feel it is very useful to invest energy in fighting such a thing when it would be far more productive to alter the system to work with the current demands of the marketplace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 i figure i have something to say about this since i am in the business in all aspects myself. first of all, i download a lot of music and listen to it. if i like it a lot, i will buy the cd and bury it in my shelf (unopened). i only use mp3 as a medium to listen to music these days. then why do i buy the cds? simple.. i want to support the artist so that he/she can keep producing. being a compose of electronic ambient myself, i know for certain that i will never make much money off music. so far, i have released ALL my music for free on the internet. however, summer of 2006 i will release my first "real" CD, and it will be available in most chillout/ambient webshops. i do hope my fans will buy the cd to support me, so that i can, for instance, buy myself a new synth or a new headset.. or other gear that could make my productions better. its like with street musicians, i give them money if i actually enjoy the show. ofcourse, these usually suck, but every now and then you hear something nice. doesnt it make YOU feel good to support this artist then? so in essence, i dont think this discussion is about what artists wants you do to, or record labels wants you to do. it is obviously quite clear that they want you to pay for the music. but how do you feel? you think there should be a bunch of people sitting around paying money to make music YOU enjoy? do YOU really find that ok? a bit of soulsearching fellas .xerxes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I dont get many gigs even though i make lots of music. 405162[/snapback] Quite surprising considering what a friendly and good natured guy you are known to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Quite surprising considering what a friendly and good natured guy you are known to be 405168[/snapback] dont you think you are a bit too insulting now? i dont think your comment was very appropiate or constructive and it got nothing to do with this debate. I am actually a very nice guy if you met me. I start to doubt you are with such a comment and attitude. Debate polite or stay out of the debate. I see the typical comment days on this board are not yet over..sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherlockalien Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I dont get many gigs even though i make lots of music. I hope I get gigs after I release my new CD. So I can go out and see people's reaction to my music. But i can assure you i have not had one person contacting me saying "we like you to play because we heard your mp3". Actuall most artists I know had way more gigs when they sold many CD's and vinyls. It's a very little handful of artists that play a lot in our scene. 90% of the, in my opinion quality, artists that release their music might get a gig every 2nd or 3rd month if they are lucky. So the tale about artists making good money from gigs because the mp3's promote them is in my opinion a BIG TIME hoax and a very weak excuse to justify people's ripping and downloading mania. I know it's a lost cause and that artists have lost the "battle". But it would be nice if people would at least respect the artists enough to not flush it in their faces.. I am not talking about you mate... Just in general. 405162[/snapback] of course nobody would say ´we like you to play because we heard your mp3´... Its a much more indirect thing.. People listening to mp3s, asking party organizers to bring these people, going more to parties where these people that they heard the mp3s from play, etc... Take for example, brazil.. there wouldnt even be a ´scene´ here if it wasnt for mp3.. all the artists that ever played here in these big parties should definitely be thankful to some extent to the mp3s.. So no, its not just bullshit that the mp3s get more gig, its a fact (though its not an absolute thing that works for all artists and all gigs, obviously... but it does happen a lot, for example, in all the existence of brazil´s scene) mp3s is not ´oh so good´ either, I know.. like everything, it has its disadvantages and low points... But imo, the problem is not with the mp3s themselves, and neither with trading, but with the attitude that people have of only doing whatever is good for themselves (labels that pay very little to artists, stores that charge too expensive, people that just want the biggest collection of unreleased mp3s to show off to their friends, etc etc) and as for people comparing mp3 downloading with stealing, thats a quite off comparison because as it has been said already, if I download a track, you are not loosing anything, since im copying, not taking it out from you.. And if you released a track, you are already expecting that lots of people will hear it anyways, its not like it was some secret project you were hiding from the world... I dont justify mp3 download and neither the inverse, because for me it depends a lot on the context... For example, if we´re going to be talking strictly about laws, then yes, it can be illegal to download, but just the same as its illegal for artists to play other people´s music in parties, and online mixes are also illegal, etc etc.. but since we´re probably not talking in blind legal terms, then we have to agree that it depends on the context.. and thats what some artists fail to realize.. they think all mp3 is bad bad bad.. but it depends so much on many factors.. (another thing to think about is that a lot of people that download a lot buy a lot too.. I for example know that I wouldnt be the buyer I am today if it wasnt for downloading) back to the brazil thing, what we pay for cds here is as if you guys would pay 50e per cd.. thats ridiculous, dont you agree? I bet most of you wouldnt buy any cds if they all costed minimum 50e there... so I find it aweful when people come and say: oh, so if you cant buy, then you shouldnt listen ... thats black and white thinking imo... just as bad and extreme as saying ´let me download it all, I give a fuck about everybody´... and anyways, I think this discussion is really non-practical.. who cares about bitching bitching (im also not directed anything at you specifically ep..), it will lead nowhere.. There are so many things that labels and artists can do to improve their situations, but all they seem to do is bitch and actually dont change anything.. fact is, mp3s are there, and trading will never stop.. so if thats a fact, then act according to it, do what you can to get the most out of it, and thats it but blabla, this subject is so much talked about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 dont you think you are a bit too insulting now? i dont think your comment was very appropiate or constructive and it got nothing to do with this debate. I am actually a very nice guy if you met me. 405169[/snapback] Maybe... but you're the #1 artist with an online reputation for anyone who has been here or on Isratrance, which is sure to account for a chunk of people involved with psytrance worldwide. It could be a factor... and as sherlockalien sez, it's not as if you'd ever know if you had a booking that was helped out by a promoter or fans downloading mp3s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Maybe... but you're the #1 artist with an online reputation for anyone who has been here or on Isratrance, which is sure to account for a chunk of people involved with psytrance worldwide. It could be a factor... and as sherlockalien sez, it's not as if you'd ever know if you had a booking that was helped out by a promoter or fans downloading mp3s. 405173[/snapback] If you think that the majority really care what goes on on isra then you give isra way too much credit. If lucky it's maybe 10-15% of the whole scene that go to isra and most are killarghhh kids. I rarely play for such promters anyway. Simply because my music do not fit their idea of good music. And I would not likely say yes to play for them. So is your opinion and not the rest of the worlds opinion. Ad most rational people know very well that forums and fights on forums rarely say much about the person in real life. I still ask you to be polite since i have been nothing but polite to you. I actualy never think i ever attacked you but once where I attacked you back after you attacked me for no reason. Yet i have seen many unprovoced comments from you quite a few times recently... So can we agree on that you keep your negativity and insulting comments about me to youself from now on? Or do as i suggested in my PM to you mins ago. Take it private if you got a problem with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 If you think that the majority really care what goes on on isra then you give isra way too much credit. If lucky it's maybe 10-15% of the whole scene that go to isra and most are killarghhh kids. I never said more than "it might be a factor". Beyond that I think you're being a bit oversensitive, but all right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Now we're getting repetitious. I don't personally feel it is very useful to invest energy in fighting such a thing when it would be far more productive to alter the system to work with the current demands of the marketplace. 405164[/snapback] Presumably this is what you meant by 'going with the flow'. I am not sure since you did not answer my question directly. I am sorry, Basilisk, but you tend to be a bit vague with your statements and it is sometimes hard for me to see what you are driving at. Abandoning the 'going with the flow' thing for a moment, I am interested if you could kindly tell us how you would 'alter the system' and convince those who do not want to pay for music in any circumstances and make them pay. Is it through boosting paid downloading services? I am sure some artists and labels could find it interesting if your suggestions are constructive. Pedro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Journey Man Project Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 if all these artists are touing the globe making thousands of euro, how come they always bitch about not being able to live off their music? What a silly statement, please give me confirmed statistics, not dreamed up facts... secondly, breaking copyright is stealing. If you have read copyright law, that is 100% what it is there for... and yes, when I do not have the money, do not eat, or I have to borrow the money to get food. This is not a problem now as I have a full time job, but it was when I was studying. But music is nothing like food, so I made a bad example as well... let us say if I was into paintings, and I did not have the money, I cannot just go and steal a painting from an art gallery, so you should not steal music. there have many many many cd's I have wanted and havemissed out on because I do not have the cash. I accept this as a simple fact of life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherlockalien Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Presumably this is what you meant by 'going with the flow'. I am not sure since you did not answer my question directly. I am sorry, Basilisk, but you tend to be a bit vague with your statements and it is sometimes hard for me to see what you are driving at. Abandoning the 'going with the flow' thing for a moment, I am interested if you could kindly tell us how you would 'alter the system' and convince those who do not want to pay for music in any circumstances and make them pay. Is it through boosting paid downloading services? I am sure some artists and labels could find it interesting if your suggestions are constructive. Pedro 405196[/snapback] maybe his whole point is that you cant change things completely, and thats what ´going with the flow´ means, or in other words, acting according to the situation, and not having blind ideas that cannot be reached... at least thats my view.. mp3 will not ever be stopped, but its very possible to minimize the disadvantages by many ways (sell lossless and mp3 files, labels getting together to make better deals with distributors, labels getting together to have their own stores instead of having to follow the prices of the normal stores, decreasing cd prices, making better cd covers, better advertisement and a million other things you can think about) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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