Goannes Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I was just thinking, do lower beats per minute, get you better (faster, easier) in trance than a higher BPM? It seems logic to me that it's easier for your heart to tune in on lower beats, let's say 120 to 135 bpm( maybe even 100 to 120 bpm), than a higher amount per minute. And is that why house and progressive psytrance should be considered more entrancing than let's say hardcore/terror and fullon/ dark psytrance (which most of the time have bpm between 140-150)? These are just speculations. And I'm also pleading for the removal of too much breaks in trance music, because it sure as hell gets you of the trance state and it can be very annoying. Few breaks though can give you a higher feeling and that's nice. So, is it? <At how many beats per minute do african/indian tribal people hit their drum?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 This really depends on my mood or in taste in general. Most of the times I just long for the ultimate experience with fast acid/old-school sound or full-on and sometimes I can go with slower progressive or slow old-school sounds. But in general it is not so much the beat that brings me to another dimension but the melodies that do it. Sure the beats ir hypnotising but the thing that does the trick is the melodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 in my case it depends on mood like tatsu said,some trax can be so fast but yet moving so slow in my mind.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Music should tread every ground, some tracks should be fast, some slow, some full of breaks and some with none. Different styles suit different moods and stir different emotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krelmatrix Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I was just thinking, do lower beats per minute, get you better (faster, easier) in trance than a higher BPM? Yes. (nothing more to say ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I was just thinking, do lower beats per minute, get you better (faster, easier) in trance than a higher BPM? It seems logic to me that it's easier for your heart to tune in on lower beats, let's say 120 to 135 bpm( maybe even 100 to 120 bpm), than a higher amount per minute. And is that why house and progressive psytrance should be considered more entrancing than let's say hardcore/terror and fullon/ dark psytrance (which most of the time have bpm between 140-150)? These are just speculations. And I'm also pleading for the removal of too much breaks in trance music, because it sure as hell gets you of the trance state and it can be very annoying. Few breaks though can give you a higher feeling and that's nice. So, is it? <At how many beats per minute do african/indian tribal people hit their drum?> 422316[/snapback] I do agree about the breaks, They do not work in trance if we talk about getting into a stage of trance. they totally ruin the journey. But bpm does not really have anything to do with it IMO. Look at ancient or even recent tribes. The keyword is not bpm but repetition and simplicity. A wood stick can get you into trance if it's repeated over and over again. It does not matter how fast that woodstick is used. That's the key element this scene was build on. That is sadly long lost now. The lack of the trance element in trance today (why even call it trance?) is too many layers of sounds and too little repetiton and too many breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Well, for me it's exactly the layers of melodies and the breaks that put me into trance. I follow the melodies with my mind when dancing (sure, I'm also following the rhythm of the beats with my feed) and when a climax or break comes, it makes bang and I'm deeper in the song. The repetitivity you are mentioning is bringing me far away from trance, it just bores me. But as I've said, it's a matter of personal taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Sure the beats ir hypnotising but the thing that does the trick is the melodies. 422322[/snapback] I am sorry but I just dont agree at all. The beat is for sure the factor that get you into a stage of trance. Rip the melodies from the beats and the rest and you wont get there. Rip the beat from everything else and you will still be able to get into a stage of trance. It is and have from the dawn of time been the rhythm and the beat that put you in a state of trance. Not a melody on it's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I am sorry but I just dont agree at all. The beat is for sure the factor that get you into a stage of trance. Rip the melodies from the beats and the rest and you wont get there. Rip the beat from everything else and you will still be able to get into a stage of trance. It is and have from the dawn of time been the rhythm and the beat that put you in a state of trance. Not a melody on it's own. 422350[/snapback] That's how it is for you but with a beat alone I was never able to get into trance so far. When I said "Sure the beats ir hypnotising but the thing that does the trick is the melodies." I was not talking in general but talking about my feelings. I should have said that again but since I wrote "Well, for me it's exactly the layers of melodies and the breaks that put me into trance." in my first sentence I thought it was clear. I haven't tried it with a melody alone, but when I have to chose between a melody only and a beat only I would take the melody anytime. Maybe some tribal drums played live woudl be different, I haven't tried them but progressive tribal music at parties (or at home) has never done the trick to me so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaySatanicHippie Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 YES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el brujo Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 There is also a bilogical part of trance Trance states also has something to do with bpm here is the quote that I ve also used in my ma “ The issue of tempo is an interesting one considering the possible relationship between the musical tempo and human brain physiology. The frequency alpha waves in the brain, critical in inducing trance states in humans, lies approximately between 8 and 12 cycles per second, and varies from one person to another. Many traditional trance-inducing music of the world contain rhythmic elements which mirror these rates. Typically performances start at the lower level and increase over a period of hours towards a higher level. The gradual increase in frequency allows for the variation in different human alpha wave frequencies. In Goa Trance there is a constant stream of 16th notes which when played at a suggested average of 144 bpm yields a flow of musical events at an average of 9.6 cps. This situation parallels of traditional trance music” Goa Trance: A Psykotropic Trip Through Tribedelic Transcapes by Fred Cole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I'm with Tatsu. I'm much more drawn and hypnotised by beautiful, winding, spiralling melodies than I am by the thud, thud, thud of bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 That's how it is for you but with a beat alone I was never able to get into trance so far. When I said "Sure the beats ir hypnotising but the thing that does the trick is the melodies." I was not talking in general but talking about my feelings. I should have said that again but since I wrote "Well, for me it's exactly the layers of melodies and the breaks that put me into trance." in my first sentence I thought it was clear. I haven't tried it with a melody alone, but when I have to chose between a melody only and a beat only I would take the melody anytime. Maybe some tribal drums played live woudl be different, I haven't tried them but progressive tribal music at parties (or at home) has never done the trick to me so far. 422353[/snapback] But sorry I am looking at this from a point thats been studied for years. And IMO and those who have studied it (I will try and find some links later...I am too lazy now) the melody can not put you in a trance per se. It is the beats that will get you into that stage. Yes the melody can be trippy and can be somewhat "hypnotising" but at the end of the day it's the repetetive element that does the deal. And no melody is that repetetive unless it's a one note sequenced sound. And that's not a melody I do not say that I know this better than you but I have read a lot about it from people that have studied it and this is the conclusion they came to after many years of studying tribes and their rituals in music. And I can guarantee you that this scenes original idea and inspiration, and why it was called trance in the first place, came from those ancient tribes repetive beats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I'm with Tatsu. I'm much more drawn and hypnotised by beautiful, winding, spiralling melodies than I am by the thud, thud, thud of bass. 422364[/snapback] Yes you are drawn to that but does that mean that those are the factors that put you into a state of trance? I still say no.. It does not have to be on a consious level and it rarely is. You might consious think it's the melodies etc. that makes you get into the state of trance when it in fact is the thud, thud as you put it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el brujo Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 If you trust my word no need to study I have a few years back for the base of my thesis There are a lot of cultural anthropologists that has studied along doctors you can find many studies reating to Australian Aborigine trance rites And they match my above quote which I found more easy to understand connected with goa by the way if you wanna check out the anthropolists check Durkheim, Emile, The Elementary Forms of Religious Life, Translated by Karen E. Fields. The Free Press, 1995 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Here's the bottom line - bass on it's own for long peroids of time is boring and treble on it's own for long periods of time is boring. Like salt and pepper, the two are at their best complimenting eachother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 But sorry I am looking at this from a point thats been studied for years. And IMO and those who have studied it (I will try and find some links later...I am too lazy now) the melody can not put you in a trance per se. It is the beats that will get you into that stage. Yes the melody can be trippy and can be somewhat "hypnotising" but at the end of the day it's the repetetive element that does the deal. And no melody is that repetetive unless it's a one note sequenced sound. And that's not a melody I do not say that I know this better than you but I have read a lot about it from people that have studied it and this is the conclusion they came to after many years of studying tribes and their rituals in music. And I can guarantee you that this scenes original idea and inspiration, and why it was called trance in the first place, came from those ancient tribes repetive beats. 422371[/snapback] I don't deny those studies and I'm also sure that you know more about this stuff than me. Basically because you have more experience with making music and also because you have probably read more about it than I did. I also know about the last part in your statement (And I can guarantee you that this scene... and so on). BUT when I say that it is the melodies that put me in trance then I'm right because I'm only talking about me. My mind doesn't really care about those studies, they might be right in general or for the majority, but for me it doesn't work like that. The beat can be as nice as it gets and it might also be part of getting me into trance. But the nice beat alone does not do the trick for me. If it's a melody that gets me, then the beat can be very standart and boring, I still go into trance. No melody --> no trance for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 i agree with elysium,(quote) as in several traditional cultures people dance to monotonous rhythms to fall into trance. Wolfgang sterneck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el brujo Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 @tatsu its not about the beat being beautifully programmed or playes as you say it can be boring or dull hell it may only be a kick and another sound (whatever) still it can put you into trance that repition and beat doesnt mean a kick and a hihat along usual percussion it can be some other sounds that repeat itself in a certain rythm a frog, along crickets and wind are sometimes crazy trance inducing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) I don't deny those studies and I'm also sure that you know more about this stuff than me. Basically because you have more experience with making music and also because you have probably read more about it than I did. I also know about the last part in your statement (And I can guarantee you that this scene... and so on). BUT when I say that it is the melodies that put me in trance then I'm right because I'm only talking about me. My mind doesn't really care about those studies, they might be right in general or for the majority, but for me it doesn't work like that. The beat can be as nice as it gets and it might also be part of getting me into trance. But the nice beat alone does not do the trick for me. If it's a melody that gets me, then the beat can be very standart and boring, I still go into trance. No melody --> no trance for me. 422384[/snapback] Again I want to say that I do not know more than you and do not at all consider msyelf an expert on this subject. I only write what I have read and also what my own "studies" into tribal music have shown me. I just want you to think about this just as I wrote to Charlie. Can you yourself say that on a unconsious level that it's the melodies or the rythms that put you into a state of trance? That's my whole point. I still claim that it is the rhythm that does the trick even though you on a consious level think it's the melodies. edit. as el brujo wrote rythms does not have to be the kick, the snare or the hi-hats.... it can be the woodstick used in a track or a repetetive whatever percusive sound. it can also as in much ambient be a certain repetetive frequenze or drone sound that repeats itself over and over again. Edited January 23, 2006 by Elysium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krelmatrix Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Nope - it's not the beat of the drum but the speed of it. For example - play a Skazi or Eskimo track at full speed (168 bpm or however fast it is). Sucks complete ass. Now put it in a program and timestretch it down to 125 bpm. That's when you start to truly understand the full genius of Skazkimo. A genius not even understood during composition. Or something. Yeah, I'll agree with Elysium on this one - for the most part. Tribalism puts me into a trance far more deeply than any sort of leading melody. I can definitely get into a good melodic piece to the point that my head is fully inside of it, but it takes that deep tribal feel for me to really get lost in the tune without much recognition of what is going on around me. It's all about establishing that deep rhythm, then building on it so slowly and smoothly that you notice the changes and the journey of the track more by the feelings it induces in you than by hearing it make big changes. Melody can aid in the experience, but it works best as a secondary or accessory part. 2 best examples for me in recent years: Dousk - Estrange Son Kite - Massive These tracks are so damned well done and get you sucked into a trance so much, that something so simple as a 2-beat percussive stutter or added hi-hat can trigger maniacal laughter. At least, that's my take on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 It's interesting this came up, as I am reading some early-90s tomes with a general focus on San Fran and "house music" and the thing that keeps coming up is 120 bpm = heartbeat in the womb... turn the room into a womb, and all this. It's also amusing that the tone of the excepts on the speed of house music keeps defending how "fast" it is i.e. "it may seem fast but..." and here I am thinking of 150bpm killllargh. Here I thought that 145 was double the healthy heartbeat, so one beat is <in> and the other beat is <out> with the heart... still, to this day, I remember the entrancing effects of Acupuncture's Reality Conflict on V/A Psybration with the breathing atmospheres and just how much of a trance you can get into when you're surrounded by that, out at an event, dancing your ass off. There is a fractal feedback loop involving the physical exertion of dancing, an endorphin rush, and pushing your heart rate up to the speed of the music. I don't think you can really say it's not 'trance' just because it isn't slow and repetative. Higher more active music can be entrancing too, depending on the specific quality of the material at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I just want you to think about this just as I wrote to Charlie. Can you yourself say that on a unconsious level that it's the melodies or the rythms that put you into a state of trance? That's my whole point. I still claim that it is the rhythm that does the trick even though you on a consious level think it's the melodies. 422392[/snapback] You may be right, maybe on a subconscious level it's the bass that hypnotises me but conversely maybe on a subconscious level it's the treble that hypnotises you and others. That's the trouble with the subconscious mind, there's no genuine way of reading it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goannes Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Interesting replies I'd say. From my point of view the melodies enhance phantasies and visualisations. They just add more of a sensational aspect to 'being in trance'. This quote from isratrance describes what I mean "The treble sounds act as a food for the imagination and we could even see geometric patterns,fractals, tripping into other dimensions in space and time... " At first I would say melodies are not needed to get in trance, and partly that's true. But their are different tribes in let's say the Brazil rainforests who only use their voice to get in trance. The chanting of mantra-like sounds do get people in trance and no drum is used. I don't know if this can be replaced by the melodies used in electronic music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elysium Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) The chanting of mantra-like sounds do get people in trance and no drum is used. I don't know if this can be replaced by the melodies used in electronic music. But to my knowledge mantra like sounds are much more repetetive and drone like than a melody that contain melodic patterns and variation such as in most "trance" at the moment? I even say that most old-school Goa tracks with the well known layers of melodies or the ethnic goa tracks with indian singing etc. also do not do the trick. Whereas most deep tribal trance such as a lot of the old australian trance on psy harmonics are the kind of trance that in my opinion do and did the trick. Of course we also have to look at the drug factor in all of this. while on drugs it is easier to get into the music for some people and canalso easily be misaken as "a state of trance". Drugs are also used in tribal rituals by tribes but thats not the case in all tribes rituals where the repetetive beat (sticks, hand drums etc) play the keyrole to the journey. Edited January 23, 2006 by Elysium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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