Time_Trap Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 maybe if the payment was higher, the artists would put more time and effort into making better tracks.. i remember Penta was saying that it's not worth his effort to put hours and hours of work into a track and then sell it for $200 or even less.. 446259[/snapback] I am bit dissapointed at mr Penta then. You dont put more time and effort in order to make more money. But because you want to. It shouldnt be labour. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmtree Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I am bit dissapointed at mr Penta then. You dont put more time and effort in order to make more money. But because you want to. It shouldnt be labour. I think. 446346[/snapback] oh gimme a break, he lives off his music - do you want him to go get a second job? do you think his music will get better if he has to work full-time AND make music? Most real psytrance artists and DJs don't do it for money, btw - but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid what they deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cangrejo Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Unfortunately, making music comes at a price. You have to pay for all the gear, which is a few thousand dollars. Then you have to support yourself whilst you are making that music. I would totally agree with you if I could make music for free. But after those initial costs of buying equipment to make my music heard, where is my incentive? I might as well burn that money then, as I won't see it back. I think the artist deserves 15-20% of the royalties once the initial costs of mastering, artwork, pressing etc are paid for. I think time and effort into something should be rewarded. 446342[/snapback] Mastering does not equal good music. Artwork does not equal good music. The artist doesn't deserve anything simply because he spent time and effort into making a track. The music should be it's own reward. If it isn't then I'm not sure I would call "the artist" an artist at all. As for the few thousand dollars that is supposedly required to make music. That doesn't have anything to do with music at all. Music isn't the instrument. Music is what you make with it. A computer will do fine, if you have the right feeling you can produce 100 times better tracks on a work station than someone that hasn't got the right feeling can on a studio complete with expensive synths, mixer tables and high quality headphones. Of course I'm just stating my opinion. It's a very strong opinion, and I hope to make an impact on some not yet plagued teenager's mind that music is made for listening. I could go on and on with what I think of today's over-stressed society with at least 5 times as many work hours as would be necessary to keep society going. There is so much unnecessary work going on. I mean what's up with the fashion industry? I have the exact same opinion about that as I have about the music industry. It's something that people should do on their free time. If you think about it for a while, you can probably think of many industries that from the beginning were just something artistic, and now it's all gone into the hands of capitalism. "Hey, people can work 8 hours a day, let's make em do it" and we do it. We don't even think twice about it, because we have no choice. We have to work for 8 hours a day to even make a living. If there were no unnecessary industries, we would probably have to work for 2 hours per day or even less. Get some food on the tables and then everyone can do whatever the hell they want to. I would go on, but I don't think anyone would be interested in reading more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Most real psytrance artists and DJs don't do it for money, btw - but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid what they deserve. 446351[/snapback] Damn right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 As for the few thousand dollars that is supposedly required to make music. That doesn't have anything to do with music at all. Music isn't the instrument. Music is what you make with it. 446352[/snapback] True. But you still got to pay up. A computer will do fine, if you have the right feeling you can produce 100 times better tracks on a work station than someone that hasn't got the right feeling can on a studio complete with expensive synths, mixer tables and high quality headphones. 446352[/snapback] Yes. But you still have to pay for the computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopie Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Very thoughtful words mister cangrejo! "fight the system" is indeed good phrase. I'm too tired of typing to give any valuable output about society (and like in your case it's just too much writing!) I've always thought: "If I can't live the way I want to, I won't live at all!" Life's too short to make compromises... bloody one 3rd of your life working for nothing... no way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 oh gimme a break, he lives off his music - do you want him to go get a second job? do you think his music will get better if he has to work full-time AND make music? Most real psytrance artists and DJs don't do it for money, btw - but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid what they deserve. 446351[/snapback] hm i see your point. But do you see mine? Mine is more on the idealistic side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmtree Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Music is made for listening, it's a pleasure to do music, not a line of work. Fuck off anyone who says that it should be worth more than $0. I'm saying this offensive because as long as there is any money to be made doing music lots of shit producers won't make music. It's not a fucking career, it's not a job. It's a way of expressing yourself. I love internet and the freedom of information that it's brought with it. I don't know why anyone would take money from people for listening to their music. Sure, if you wanna pay great artists for putting lots of work, blah blah blah. "People won't make music if there's nothing to be made from it" That's bullshit, there was music long before there were any money. Music that existed for the sole purpose of enjoying it. Not for making money off of it. Have I made myself clear? 446322[/snapback] Musicians are entertainers - it's a nobler occupation than many others - why deny them the right to be paid if they put all their time and effort into helping YOU enjoy your life? and whenever was it in the past that musicians worked for nothing?? in some naive strange vision of the middle ages? if you're just doing it to express yourself, strumming your guitar by the fire or whatever, you shouldn't ask for money. But if you're a professional with years of training and you put all your time and effort into making stuff that entertains other people, you should ask for something in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cangrejo Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I am bit dissapointed at mr Penta then. You dont put more time and effort in order to make more money. But because you want to. It shouldnt be labour. I think. 446346[/snapback] Exactly It's just greed talking when he says it isn't worth the effort. Well then mr. Penta, sir, maybe it isn't worth the effort listening to your tracks either? How do you like that? I'll be glad to support artists I love to listen to, but since most start producing shit after they get the recognition they actually deserve in the first place I'm very anxious to do so. I mean, just look at Infected Mushroom. They're a grade A example of how money and fame affects good artistry. It's the same with most artists that get famous, even in other genres of music. I believe it's something like "Alright, we got our recognition and enough money to make a mistake or two, let's try something different." and it usually turns out to be shit. It's sad, but it's the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 True. But you still got to pay up. Yes. But you still have to pay for the computer. 446355[/snapback] oh come on anyone's got a computer these days In the end just be altruistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmtree Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 hm i see your point. But do you see mine? Mine is more on the idealistic side. 446357[/snapback] yes, of course i see your point of view. unfortunately this isn't Idyllia and we aren't prancing around half-naked with flutes and lyras, picking apples off trees, drinking from rivers of wine, and singing serenades to the moonlight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cangrejo Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 True. But you still got to pay up. ... Yes. But you still have to pay for the computer. 446355[/snapback] Yes, but if you really want to make music you can afford a few hundred dollars for a computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cangrejo Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Musicians are entertainers - it's a nobler occupation than many others - why deny them the right to be paid if they put all their time and effort into helping YOU enjoy your life? and whenever was it in the past that musicians worked for nothing?? in some naive strange vision of the middle ages? if you're just doing it to express yourself, strumming your guitar by the fire or whatever, you shouldn't ask for money. But if you're a professional with years of training and you put all your time and effort into making stuff that entertains other people, you should ask for something in return. 446358[/snapback] Yes, and that something is a smile on a face. Money can't buy happiness, mind you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time_Trap Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 yes, of course i see your point of view. unfortunately this isn't Idyllia and we aren't prancing around half-naked with flutes and lyras, picking apples off trees, drinking from rivers of wine, and singing serenades to the moonlight. 446363[/snapback] Unfortunately... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmtree Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Exactly It's just greed talking when he says it isn't worth the effort. Well then mr. Penta, sir, maybe it isn't worth the effort listening to your tracks either? How do you like that? 446361[/snapback] Greed?? Who's going to pay his rent, you? or maybe you'll just build him a house, that'd be nice and idealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmtree Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Yes, and that something is a smile on a face. Money can't buy happiness, mind you. 446365[/snapback] no, but it can buy bread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmtree Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 anyway, there's a reason for existence of 'professionals' as opposed to 'amateurs' and 'jacks of all trades'. and that reason is, they do a better job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cangrejo Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Greed?? Who's going to pay his rent, you? or maybe you'll just build him a house, that'd be nice and idealistic. 446368[/snapback] Maybe he should get a job and do something for society. Then he could use his spare time to do music if he really wants to. He wouldn't feel the pressure to release something to make money off it and therefore he could take his time to really make something special. I'm sure if you think for 10 seconds you can name at least one artist that has released a record prematurely simply because of the pressure from the record company. And guess what's pressuring the record company. Money. If everyone worked to keep society running by producing food, health care, schools etc. you wouldn't have to work as much as you have to in today's consumer society. Then there would be more time to do anything you want, for example music, researching new technology, or simply chilling out . I know this is a very idealistic image of the society, and it probably won't come true in our lifetime, if ever. However, it's never too late to start working on it. You know the people who are "running the internet" are working for free. Only our ISPs steal our money for using the service. There are people who are interested in everything, otherwise these things wouldn't exist. So a society where everyone does what they want would definitely work. Anyway, I guess I'm off to catch some sleep, at least try. Thanks for giving me feedback on my thoughts. It's very inspiring to discuss matters like this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmtree Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Dude, I don't want Penta to build my house or fix my plumbing or cook food for me.. why? because he probably sucks at it. People are good at different things - some people are really good at cooking, other people at fixing things, and Penta is good at making music. People figured this out long ago, that's why money was invented - to make bartering services easier. and if you don't think his music does something (or a lot!) for society, you're out of your mind.. reminds me of the original russian communist approach - what, he's a poet? well, let's make him useful, he can go work at a factory and build tanks or something. fucking assholes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Matta Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Music is made for listening, it's a pleasure to do music, not a line of work. Fuck off anyone who says that it should be worth more than $0. I'm saying this offensive because as long as there is any money to be made doing music lots of shit producers won't make music. It's not a fucking career, it's not a job. It's a way of expressing yourself. I love internet and the freedom of information that it's brought with it. I don't know why anyone would take money from people for listening to their music. Sure, if you wanna pay great artists for putting lots of work, blah blah blah. "People won't make music if there's nothing to be made from it" That's bullshit, there was music long before there were any money. Music that existed for the sole purpose of enjoying it. Not for making money off of it. Have I made myself clear? 446322[/snapback] Totally ridiculous points in my opinion. The world would be a pretty goddamn dull place without art. Therefore, art has value. Therefore, people should be rewarded for creating value and making this world a better place. Yes, in fact, it's that goddamn simple. AUGH, where do some of you people come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jikkenteki Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think a possibly more interesting poll might have been "How much do you think the average artist earns for one track?" That might surprise a lot of people. Ideally I think an artist should earn around $500 a track for a compilation, but considering how pretty much no one buys CDs any more, I can unfortunately understand why they don't. Of course things are case by case, but I am speaking "generally" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phobium Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think a possibly more interesting poll might have been "How much do you think the average artist earns for one track?" That might surprise a lot of people. Ideally I think an artist should earn around $500 a track for a compilation, but considering how pretty much no one buys CDs any more, I can unfortunately understand why they don't. Of course things are case by case, but I am speaking "generally" 446434[/snapback] That would make an interesting poll indeed. The money has to come from somewhere, and that is sales. And also, regarding people who think all music should be free. PLUR and party cred won't pay the rent nor your food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Everybody is forgetting the incredible benefits artists get like travelling around the world from one party to another for free.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Full On artists should pay for people listening to their music the others.. atleast 500€ a track + some percentage of sales 446106[/snapback] Traveller i´am with you, i alzo hate fucking bad fullon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Yes, but if you really want to make music you can afford a few hundred dollars for a computer. 446364[/snapback] Mhm, and then a copy of some software, midi keyboard, vsts etc. All adds up. I agree with you on Infected Mushroom, they have got worse since B.P Empire, and yes there is a lot of shit being produced. But what are you going to do about it? There's always commercial artists making millions off their 'music' which is crap, does that mean we have to deny great artists money to put food on the table? Not everyone is skilled at working in industry as dmtree rightly pointed out. You think these people would rather slave in a factory somewhere or make music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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