Starlancer Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 starlancer, for you my friend: ofcourse i don't care man. Let me at least have some fun out of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppA Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 It says psytrance is going nowhere, not that its dead. Theres a difference.When one is dead, one will not go anywhere (on oneself). Though the different thing is, when one doesn't go anywhere, is one dead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 ofcourse i don't care man. Let me at least have some fun out of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 In 1997 Suzuki released VA "Let it RIP", pointing to letting the music (goa / psytrance) Rest In Peace. This is where his argumentation starts, now, 10 years later he repeats something along the same lines as Let it RIP. So, was psytrance "dead" as a musical genre back then ? No. Since back then, we have had several developments into new sounds, the psytrance of today is different from the psytrance of back then, since it evolved, and to evolve it needs to have been ALIVE - and also, it needs to have been moving, ergo, it is going somewhere. So, its neither dead(1997) or not moving forward(2007). Just to name a few developments I will repeat myself, Dark Psychedelic Trance, Suomi Style, Tech Trance and a shit load of cross genre work. All which are developments and proof of movement, from 1997 to 2007. He was wrong back then, and he is wrong now. Just because you have a strong opinion and your famous, doesnt mean that you are right. These are the facts, and they prove that I am right and you are wrong. I can say this with confidence, since this is really as simple as I put it. When something is dead, it does not live, when something is not moving forward it does not change. Psytrance did all of those things, so, there must be a fault in the argument "let it rip" "psytrance is going nowhere" or the copy cat version "psytrance is dead"... To all of those you might add "for me" or "to me" at the end, then the argument would become true, but not before. Only question that remains is, are you too stubborn to acknowledge the truth when it is presented to you... Perhaps you are, like him, too mesmerized by your own opinion for you to be able to take the facts into consideration. - Krell + Psytrance is obviously going somewhere! People might not like where it is going but it is definately moving! If it was going nowhere & sounded exactly the same as it did 10 years ago then I think the old school massive would be happy (or even more bored)! But it is moving! Psytrance is not dead with parties & hundreds of releases every year. The ideals & initiative might be dying but the scene is surely not dead. In fact it seems to becoming more commercial therefore growing! However you feel about this doesn't change the fact that it's not dead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimension Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 I am sure we have many options now than 10 years ago. The music itself constantly changes and evolves - that's the evolution. The matter is maybe an eclectic mixture of all those styles and subgenres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psytones Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Life starts at death (the end is the beginning - it is where the true will seperate it self from the fake). psy-trance, as all music genres are evolving and changing all the time. Psytrance's evolution has just been on a snail speed until lately. The more "dead" it becomes, the more "alive" projects we will see. There is a reason for releases such as SunTrip Rec., Darango, psykovsky's debut album. It's a natural balance. This can be seen in all music scenes. I'm very happy about one thing.. It seems Full-on is dying, or at least detatching it self more and more from the psy scene creating it's own home. It's all good, everything is normal, you just have to live through the phazes and take it with a smile. But I guess I'm just stateing the obvious here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seraph Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 The music itself constantly changes and evolves - that's the evolution. Ummmm, rather de-evolution, considering the number of quality releases. And where is evolving ? Copy/paste of the same sounds is evolution to you ? I believe it evolved until 2005. Now is all the same, dark psy, full on, progressive, all sounds the same as when it was made few years ago. Lame evolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimension Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Ummmm, rather de-evolution, considering the number of quality releases. And where is evolving ? Copy/paste of the same sounds is evolution to you ? I believe it evolved until 2005. Now is all the same, dark psy, full on, progressive, all sounds the same as when it was made few years ago. Lame evolution. Must agree with you, Seraph. Personally I don't like the direction trance is going now. Musical equipment and software are so easy to get, there are so many trance producing heads now that a quality of most releases isn't as high as before. The big trouble is psy trance has lost its original roots and became just standard music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psytones Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 the problem is that "psy" has become a cool und hipp trademark. period. In the 90's Goa was a trance style liked by ,,older" and more intellectual people while the ,,kiddies" enjoyed other dance/trance music. (sorry for the generalizing, but I hope you reader understand what I'm saying) but whats the issue here? As I see it, the worse it get's (things has taken many positive spins over the last years), the better it get's as well. ying-yang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Ummmm, rather de-evolution, considering the number of quality releases. And where is evolving ? Copy/paste of the same sounds is evolution to you ? I believe it evolved until 2005. Now is all the same, dark psy, full on, progressive, all sounds the same as when it was made few years ago. Lame evolution. Sorry but I have to disagree here. If you don't like how prog or full-on sounds today, that's of course your thing and I understand that you can't find "quality" releases then. But saying that everything sounds the same is just wrong, unless you add that it sounds the same FOR YOU. Which is a huge difference imho. For me all the psy-minimal released around 2000/2001 did sound the same, boring and copy/past music. Reading reviews back then made me think they are not, still I don't get them until today. Anyway, there are a lot of releases in the same style, not a surprise considering the total amount of releases, still I have to disagree with your view. Benza does not sound like Nystagmus does not sound like Protoculture does not sound like Space Buddha does not sound like Infected Mushroom and so on. Sure it's in the same style more or less but to me I do hear a big difference between those. Same with prog: Flowjob does not sound like Lish and Lish does not sound like Vibrasphere to me and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seraph Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Sorry but I have to disagree here. If you don't like how prog or full-on sounds today... I like progressive trance, didn't say anything bad about it, just they lack new ideas even in that genre these years. Full on, on the other hand DOES sound all the same, sorry Tats, I forgot to put IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 I don't know but counting it as a psy release the last D-Nox & Beckers album sounds fresh and unique. Sure it was inspired by the minimal stuff but still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rino Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 In the 90's Goa was a trance style liked by ,,older" and more intellectual people while the ,,kiddies" enjoyed other dance/trance music. (sorry for the generalizing, but I hope you reader understand what I'm saying) Are you saying that because somebody does not have a PHD, is not highly educated and did not go to university cannot or could not have liked goa trance back in the ninetees? I cannot consider myself a fan of an entire music genre because I didn't read enough? Hell, I was nowhere to be seen in school and I was dying for new releases... Intellectual people? I used to unload construction material off trucks and not read books, and was still crazy about goa trance. What the fuck are you saying? And what the fuck does it have to do with Suzuki's pointless statement? The way you make it sound seems as if though people whose inner self is not sophisticated enough (and all that bla bla bla crap) cannot enjoy a branch of electronic music, originally concieved for dancing, and not some shitty intellectual discussions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 its not what he meant. ever heard about candy ravers? kids that go to parties and dont care what music is being played there as long as they get their drugs? drugs that are being taken not for mind expansion and inner-outer explorations but to just get shitfaced and scream for "dj play more dat kilargh baseline kick!!1"... etc. hes not talking about phd, dont be ridiculous such people and "shanti plur arse" babas understand music completely different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psytones Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Are you saying that because somebody does not have a PHD, is not highly educated and did not go to university cannot or could not have liked goa trance back in the ninetees? I cannot consider myself a fan of an entire music genre because I didn't read enough? Hell, I was nowhere to be seen in school and I was dying for new releases... Intellectual people? I used to unload construction material off trucks and not read books, and was still crazy about goa trance. What the fuck are you saying? And what the fuck does it have to do with Suzuki's pointless statement? The way you make it sound seems as if though people whose inner self is not sophisticated enough (and all that bla bla bla crap) cannot enjoy a branch of electronic music, originally concieved for dancing, and not some shitty intellectual discussions... Not.my.point.at.all. Ok, what about this then (get ready to get fired up): People who do not or have taken psycedelic drugs/plants in their life can not understand the essence of psychedelic trance music. A huge reason for the down era of psy-trance is fuckers that comes in to MY scene and don't even know what psychedelic is. They come in with chemical drugs such as amphethamins and exctasy. They get high on it and think that the hallucinogenic visions and feelings they concieve ARE psychedelic. Little do they know the huge different from a E trip to a Acid trip and the seriousness involved in the difference. It's the kidds from Israel (world) that jumps on the trend hype of psychedelic, and they wish to take part of this hype by releasing their own killer tracks inspired by amph and E's. Wrong drugs and wrong mind settings screws this .. sorry MY scene over like a badly raped horse. It's ugly and I would like to tell them all to piss off and leave the brand PSY alone. because you know what. YOu are fucking it up with your mediocre opinions and rapid response to something that you find offencive. On a personal note I flunked school and never came back Chill rino, you missunderstood me. I'm not saying that you have to have Phd to listen to this music (altough it could rais the standard over time lol). I'm just saying that it's your attitude, understanding and keeping a open mind about it that counts. .. you cunt The essence in my point was that Goa used to be a style that adults respected and listened to, Goa was a music style hidden from the majority of the masses. It was serious music style with a ,,serious" message. Candyravers with their full-on (see the track list of the album in question) dunk dunk msuic has no deeper meaning except one. PARTY! *utch utch utch*. I'm sorry, and I'm openminded, but come on, when was psy and goa degraded to become a party genre without deeper sense? And as for the complexity... Maybe not Phd, but it takes some witt to create a masterful piece of music that belongs in psychedelic land.. trancy or fxy. As long as it's psychedelic. But then again, whats psychedelic? ..beh! its not what he meant. ever heard about candy ravers? kids that go to parties and dont care what music is being played there as long as they get their drugs? drugs that are being taken not for mind expansion and inner-outer explorations but to just get shitfaced and scream for "dj play more dat kilargh baseline kick!!1"... etc. hes not talking about phd, dont be ridiculous such people and "shanti plur arse" babas understand music completely different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yohankiwi Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Not.my.point.at.all. Ok, what about this then (get ready to get fired up): People who do not or have taken psycedelic drugs/plants in their life can not understand the essence of psychedelic trance music. A huge reason for the down era of psy-trance is fuckers that comes in to MY scene and don't even know what psychedelic is. They come in with chemical drugs such as amphethamins and exctasy. They get high on it and think that the hallucinogenic visions and feelings they concieve ARE psychedelic. Little do they know the huge different from a E trip to a Acid trip and the seriousness involved in the difference. It's the kidds from Israel (world) that jumps on the trend hype of psychedelic, and they wish to take part of this hype by releasing their own killer tracks inspired by amph and E's. Wrong drugs and wrong mind settings screws this .. sorry MY scene over like a badly raped horse. It's ugly and I would like to tell them all to piss off and leave the brand PSY alone. because you know what. YOu are fucking it up with your mediocre opinions and rapid response to something that you find offencive. On a personal note I flunked school and never came back I dunno whether I agree with the fact that one has to take psychedelics in order to appreciate and understand truly psychedelic music, but I´m with you on the point that most of the full on/dark psy that is pumped out at festivals nowadays isnt what i would define as psychedelic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rino Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 I'm not saying that you have to have Phd to listen to this music (altough it could rais the standard over time lol). I'm sorry, and I'm openminded, but come on, when was psy and goa degraded to become a party genre without deeper sense? And as for the complexity... Maybe not Phd, but it takes some witt to create a masterful piece of music that belongs in psychedelic land.. trancy or fxy. As long as it's psychedelic. But then again, whats psychedelic? ..beh! for the first part of the quote! My bad, it seems I really did get you wrong, I hope you took no offence (not too much that is)... My apologies to you! But, it is the second part of your post that I quoted, and I tend to disagree with you here. Why? Mainly because to my humble knowledge, the music we refer to as goa trance today, was purely made to make people dance, slap a smile on their face and let them have a good time. No deeper goal as far as the music is concerned. What happened later, that is a whole new story. But in its essence, just like techno, goa trance is pure and uncut party music, with no complex messages. Or am I wrong? As for the drug-psychedelic relationship, I must admit that I have never in my life been a consumer of any illegal substance, and I don't think that makes me less conscious of the beauty of this music than some "shiva shanti" acid freak fool. Or does it? I don't think the adjective psychedelic should be strictly tied to drugs, or else we risk into falling in a trap, where goa/psy trance will be regarded as music for wasted monkeys. Drugs are an optional luxury, and as far as I am concerned, the difference between an "E" popping raver and an so called "enlightened" acid eating hippie is NONE. That's right, both of 'em are more or less on the same level, for what I might care. Drugs are drugs, and my viewpoint of them is pretty rigid, so I won't even try to understand why does an acid trippin' dude come across as more self aware than some extasy munching party animal... And as for the music, well psytones, that is what ALWAYS happens when something finally breaks into the daylight, and when people realize its full potential. Hip hop went from its humble beginnings in Brooklyn and Queensbridge some thirty years ago, and now it's a musical genre covering an entire globe, churning out thousands of releases each year! Techno, being a branch of electronic music itself, went from Detroit's damp warehouses to modernly equipped clubs on Ibiza, enormous festivals, producing house hold DJ names, stars, and hundreds of highly prolific produxers. So why shoud goa trance be an exception? From its humble roots to its present state of being. Once its potential was realized, it was only natural that the music should spread around, slowly from country to country, and gain popularity. I figure it must be something like an unwritten law or something... It was only a matter of time before goa trance gets exploited and full blown. That is just the way things are. You may disagree, and I never said I don't, but there isn't me or you can do here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benf52 Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 @ psytones... so u have to take acid to "get" psytrance... that is completely wrong... as rino said some people who make cheezy fullon take acid, and some people who have never taken acid make good music and go to the parties for the right reason... and btw it's not necessary to take drugs everytime u go out partying... u should try it... everything is not about drugs in life ya know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Don't really wanna get involved in the drugs and psy argument but I feel the two go hand in hand, so probably just have involved myself. It's difficult to explain but it sounds quite different on psychoactives, clearer, less weird, less hectic, it makes more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goa Bill Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Not.my.point.at.all. Ok, what about this then (get ready to get fired up): People who do not or have taken psycedelic drugs/plants in their life can not understand the essence of psychedelic trance music. A huge reason for the down era of psy-trance is fuckers that comes in to MY scene and don't even know what psychedelic is. They come in with chemical drugs such as amphethamins and exctasy. They get high on it and think that the hallucinogenic visions and feelings they concieve ARE psychedelic. Little do they know the huge different from a E trip to a Acid trip and the seriousness involved in the difference. It's the kidds from Israel (world) that jumps on the trend hype of psychedelic, and they wish to take part of this hype by releasing their own killer tracks inspired by amph and E's. Wrong drugs and wrong mind settings screws this .. sorry MY scene over like a badly raped horse. It's ugly and I would like to tell them all to piss off and leave the brand PSY alone. because you know what. YOu are fucking it up with your mediocre opinions and rapid response to something that you find offencive. On a personal note I flunked school and never came back Again you come with your pro psychedelic agenda? Let me assure you that i enjoy the music at least as much as you do without ever dropping acid or mushrooms. The closed mindedness of some psy heads really irritates me sometimes. I thought you were supposed to be the enlightened ones. Just let me enjoy the music as i see it proper. Whether it's a beer, weed or heroine. Jesus. Rino said it best. I agree 100% with what he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seraph Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 But, it is the second part of your post that I quoted, and I tend to disagree with you here. Why? Mainly because to my humble knowledge, the music we refer to as goa trance today, was purely made to make people dance, slap a smile on their face and let them have a good time. No deeper goal as far as the music is concerned. What happened later, that is a whole new story. But in its essence, just like techno, goa trance is pure and uncut party music, with no complex messages. Or am I wrong? As for the drug-psychedelic relationship, I must admit that I have never in my life been a consumer of any illegal substance, and I don't think that makes me less conscious of the beauty of this music than some "shiva shanti" acid freak fool. Or does it? I don't think the adjective psychedelic should be strictly tied to drugs, or else we risk into falling in a trap, where goa/psy trance will be regarded as music for wasted monkeys. Drugs are an optional luxury, and as far as I am concerned, the difference between an "E" popping raver and an so called "enlightened" acid eating hippie is NONE. That's right, both of 'em are more or less on the same level, for what I might care. Drugs are drugs, and my viewpoint of them is pretty rigid, so I won't even try to understand why does an acid trippin' dude come across as more self aware than some extasy munching party animal... And as for the music, well psytones, that is what ALWAYS happens when something finally breaks into the daylight, and when people realize its full potential. Hip hop went from its humble beginnings in Brooklyn and Queensbridge some thirty years ago, and now it's a musical genre covering an entire globe, churning out thousands of releases each year! Techno, being a branch of electronic music itself, went from Detroit's damp warehouses to modernly equipped clubs on Ibiza, enormous festivals, producing house hold DJ names, stars, and hundreds of highly prolific produxers. So why shoud goa trance be an exception? From its humble roots to its present state of being. Once its potential was realized, it was only natural that the music should spread around, slowly from country to country, and gain popularity. I figure it must be something like an unwritten law or something... It was only a matter of time before goa trance gets exploited and full blown. That is just the way things are. You may disagree, and I never said I don't, but there isn't me or you can do here... I agree about every aspect you said, except for being rigid about drugs and seeing all drug heads the same. Not everyone that takes drugs are deranged, demented freaks nor everyone that gets them are enlightened. People use various substances for various occasions and if one needs it for better perception of music, I don't mind that. How do you think most of goa/psy producers found inspiration and even psychedelic musicians in the past ? First there was an acid blast in the 60's. Loads of producers were stuffing themselves of acid, finding lots of inspiration to make psychedelic music. Later came MDMA in 80's and whole euphorical 'rave' subgenre appeared, mostly influenced by that drug. Then the acid comeback happend in 90's and lots of artists produced highly psychedelic stuff. Nowadays, I call it an amph and cocaine induced insipiration where most of the releases sound like 'white powder marching music'. You shouldn't diss something you've never tried and pretend it is not there. There were many of the artists that never took drugs, and found inspiration elsewhere, not everything is about drugs as it appears to you with other people. It is all about perception of music and drugs. I have quitted excessive drug usage and nowadays go str8 to parties, only smoking spliffs. There is no difference between str8 and drugged state, perceiving music, you are just more able to handle hours and hours of dancing when on drugs. Nothing more. But to be honest, I was listening to psy/goa trance for 2 years at first before I've tried my first acid in 1997 after which I've experienced completely new form of sounds, your perception changes, becomes crystal clear, you hear the sounds and fxs that were in the distance like the main melody or bass and you are literally 'projected' inside the music, whereas when str8 you only feel it through your body, mildly penetrating your mind. There is huge difference in perception, but as I said, it really doesn't matter how one perceive music as long as he feels it, dance to it and feel content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psytones Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Not.my.point.at.all. Ok, what about this then (get ready to get fired up): People who do not or have taken psycedelic drugs/plants in their life can not understand the essence of psychedelic trance music. at least I managed to do what I set out to do. Pavel (and others jumping on me for saying that you can not truly appriciate psytrance without an experience) , what you quoted me on was kind of over-expressed by me (I thought I made that clear, but guess not..). No way I see those words as a ultimate truth. relax. But I do think, believe, know and presume that while on a psychedelic drug (which you have never tried) both you and the music change. I know it sounds weird, but the music takes on a totally different form and meaning while on a psychoactive substance. It's fucking hard to explain to people who don't know what your talking about, but you have to trust me when I say that if you take your favourite goa track, you'll be foking suprised of how much more inside the track you'll be able to hear and experience. Thats the magic of psychedelic trance music and psychedelic substances combined. As Charlie said above, they go hand in hand. It's a part of the magic So basically you are saying that by taking LSD per automatic the person who takes it will make GREAT PSYCHEDELIC MUSIC! haha what a joke... like acid is some kind of key to the innerverse that makes whatever idiot a genius... yeah right.. lot of acid geniuses around where i live i mean the idiots here in sweden take acid/shrooms whatever.. they still make cheesy full on Hey man, it's not that easy, don't try to make a fool out of me. can I ask a couple of questions? 1. Have you ever tried shrooms or acid? You must have since your a fan of this music AND you live in Sweden 2. Who makes cheesy full-on and comes from Sweden?? ? Drugs are an optional luxury, and as far as I am concerned, the difference between an "E" popping raver and an so called "enlightened" acid eating hippie is NONE. That's right, both of 'em are more or less on the same level, for what I might care. Drugs are drugs,, Hey Rino You absolutely right on many of your points. Well, if Goa was a pure have fun and dance thing or not is hard to answer, because I really don't know, I wasn't around. But I don't think it's that easy, it represented something bigger. But this isn't my street and I don't want to go there. Either way, for me it isn't "just" dance music. Full-on is "just" dancemusic, but not this music. I mean, hell, most of the psychedelic trance albums I love to listen to isn't really clubber friendly anyway. Goa shouldn't be clubberfriendly. For me the taking it into clubs ruined a lot, but thats a thing no one could have stopped, it's a part of it's evolution no matter how retarded that evolution is (ehrm, sereph ). I hope you read my posts in page two Rino. But for the quote above. Let me just say one thing, and as much, it's hard to understand without having been there. Acid IS NOT as easy to take as E's. You can not compare chemical reincreational drugs with headgears like that. It's like comparing the moon with the sun. You can do it, but it's not the same by far. ACID IS NOT A PARTY DRUG!!! pr say. Acid isn't even a drug, it's a tool that is being missued by many. A lot of respect to the psychedelic substance. so u have to take acid to "get" psytrance... that is completely wrong... as rino said some people who make cheezy fullon take acid, and some people who have never taken acid make good music and go to the parties for the right reason... and btw it's not necessary to take drugs everytime u go out partying... u should try it... everything is not about drugs in life ya know... often, yes .... I disagree to an extent. .... I usaly never party on drugs at a party (alcho-drug anyone?), especially psychedelic drugs. For me psychedelics is for the nature and home in safe and good inviroments. benf52. I'm sorry for these garsh words, but I dont think you know what the fuck your talking about. nada. Don't really wanna get involved in the drugs and psy argument but I feel the two go hand in hand, so probably just have involved myself. It's difficult to explain but it sounds quite different on psychoactives, clearer, less weird, less hectic, it makes more sense. it makes more sense :clapping: . I remember the first time I listened to Goa on psy (I didn't like Goa-trance at all, didn't get it and it's purpuse) (it was actually a crappy Guitars On Mushrooms Vol. ? album). It amazed me how different and more sensible the music became.. it was weird experience to see it shift form into something totally different. PS/EDIT/OBS! ::: Sereph, good words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seraph Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 saitoneZ, it is serAph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psytones Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 saitoneZ, it is serAph. zErafh, i am sory, ze bran iz burnt after so many years of drug experiences Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen dream Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 psynews is going nowhere! :drama: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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