piracy

[Towelie]

I,m a thief and proud of it 8) .. i dl games, movies, tv shows, music .. i dont pay 'tv usage bill' .. dont pay parking ticket, dont pay bus, train etc ticket when possible and so on

[chatnik aka alien]

I have much old music on mp3 that i couldn't find on cds or vinyls. I don't want to pay for some cd 400e on ebay, because it's rare and i can't get in store[with buying like this you don't support artists], in that case i'm satisfied with mp3.

[Starlancer]

Haha, you see - even now you're unable to say "Yes, I'm a thief and I don't care"

I confess

[Drosophila]

I have much old music on mp3 that i couldn't find on cds or vinyls. I don't want to pay for some cd 400e on ebay, because it's rare and i can't get in store[with buying like this you don't support artists], in that case i'm satisfied with mp3.

I guess that only make sense for a hardcore collectors.... I would never pay that kind of money for a piece of plastic, I would rather spend it on releases that actually benefits the artists. So downloading it is

[Guest antic]

I confess

[exotic]

one reply i got on isratrance .. makes me wonder

 

If I found a magic wand that could infinitely reproduce a loaf of bread I bought at a bakery so I could feed the whole world would you say I was stealing from the bakery?

 

Or what if we lived in a socialist society? would you still think people are stealing when they share their music?

 

And we talk about ethics and respect for the artists. But lets remember that before file sharing became possible the consumer had to pay for a whole CD or record even though he might only be interested in a few songs, and even if they were interested in the whole CD many people agree that music in general was overpriced. Not a fair deal if you ask me, however did anybody ever point a finger to the artists and tell them they were disrespecting the consumer? Because the labels and artists are not just trying to maintain some minimal amount of profit necessary to bring music to the masses. No, they actually want to extract as much profit as they possibly can. But nobody ever complained since its all just part of the capitalist game right? Oh but now the tables have turned and the consumer can find a way around not having to pay for the music and you think it's unethical and a lack of disrespect to the artist? Perhaps its just that the game has taken a new direction where this time the consumer/public is the one getting the benefits. And by the way how many albums did you once buy and maybe lost? or do you have any old ruined records and tapes you bought that you would like to get on CD? Well have the artists come out to say they want to give us a free dowload of that music which we lost but actually paid for? Yeah so much for the respect theory, It should be obvious that, by these standards, protecting the artists potential to get profit, in general, is not an ethical obligation. Its all still fair play in this capitalist society game which we are all playing.

 

And the claim that its the lack of incentive that is what is creating bad music today, no offense but is simply ridiculous. Economic incentive has never been what drives a true artist.

 

Yeah compensating the artist seems fair, but unfortunately for them the music seems to want to be free and to me that feels good because I think its also fair that music can be an equal privilage to both rich and poor people. So that even in a remote village in the jungle with simply the aid of an internet connection the whole village can listen to some of humanities greatest musical creations including psy trance.

 

Fucking hell yeah

 

the guy has some fair points ,, what say ??

[abasio]

one reply i got on isratrance .. makes me wonder

 

If I found a magic wand that could infinitely reproduce a loaf of bread I bought at a bakery so I could feed the whole world would you say I was stealing from the bakery?

That would in fact put the bakery out of business

[exotic]

That would in fact put the bakery out of business

yea but come to think of it from a socialistic pov its for the greater good of society which brings us back to the capitalism vs socialism debate.

moreover that magical wand will not work for too long for someone might pull the plug. what this particular person is failing to understand is for how long can it be free ?? there are people who are earning their bread and butter from the very thing downloading continues to distribute as if it grows on trees.

just imagine a scenario where everyone starts downloading so that poor people also have access to music.

the future realy is uncertain

 

[Guest antic]

Ok, here goes:

 

If I found a magic wand that could infinitely reproduce a loaf of bread I bought at a bakery so I could feed the whole world would you say I was stealing from the bakery?

The example is a bit missed, because fixing world's hunger problem is not the same calibre as providing music for people. But anyway, the system like that would be fair if everything was free. If I for example was forced to work for free, I would feel violated unless everyone else are working for free. Why should I give you my work for free, if I still have to buy food, electricity, fuel, clothes...? That's what artists have to do nowadays...

 

Or what if we lived in a socialist society? would you still think people are stealing when they share their music?

Socialism is a utopian system where EVERYTHING is free.

 

And we talk about ethics and respect for the artists. But lets remember that before file sharing became possible the consumer had to pay for a whole CD or record even though he might only be interested in a few songs, and even if they were interested in the whole CD many people agree that music in general was overpriced. Not a fair deal if you ask me, however did anybody ever point a finger to the artists and tell them they were disrespecting the consumer? Because the labels and artists are not just trying to maintain some minimal amount of profit necessary to bring music to the masses. No, they actually want to extract as much profit as they possibly can. But nobody ever complained since its all just part of the capitalist game right?

If you are interested in only few songs from a compilation there is something called paid downloads for you. How many of you are using it? Besides, if artists were paid what they deserve for their work I'm sure the quality of releases would be much better. Now they want to release as much tracks as they can, because they rightfully assume 80-90% of it will be downloaded anyway - no profit there. If people would buy the music, simple laws of supply & demand would fix the quality issue. As it is now, the releases that sell best are those headed for more mainstream audience, hence the flood of crappy - in OUR opinion - compilations & artist albums.

 

About the recompensation for lost CDs - well, there's no simple solution really, as a production of a CD and booklet costs real money, so I see no reason why somebody should do it for free. Maybe the price should only consist of printing costs, but then you'd have to prove you already bought the release in the past. It is probably much simpler story with paid downloads (no additional cost, besides the bandwidth), but I don't know how it works there.

 

And the claim that its the lack of incentive that is what is creating bad music today, no offense but is simply ridiculous. Economic incentive has never been what drives a true artist.

Ridiculous? Well, try to write music when you have to work 9-5, take care of your family, meet with mates etc.. You can spend all night composing, but how long will you be able to live like that?

 

Yeah compensating the artist seems fair, but unfortunately for them the music seems to want to be free and to me that feels good because I think its also fair that music can be an equal privilage to both rich and poor people. So that even in a remote village in the jungle with simply the aid of an internet connection the whole village can listen to some of humanities greatest musical creations including psy trance.

It is not the first time human mentality doesn't keep up with the developement of technology (nuclear power anyone?). The problem is, how to make all people 'equal'. Be giving the music for free you're not achieving this goal, because you're making artists poorer. Again, all types of entertainment (music, books, theatre etc.) were always available only to those who can afford it. It is someone's job to provide the entertainment and therefore they shouldn't be forced to do it for free.

[FrozenRealm]

Don't have really much to add.. just some thoughts that came up. First thing is, if people don't pay for music on cd, its fine with me.. it's their own choice and I definitely know people who have such a tight budget it's hard for them to even have enough money to eat.

Also, if someone wants to produce music, its a choice he/she makes and it is a personal dedication, if you want to make music you probably make time for it and if there is other work to do besides that to get some money to live by... that's just very NORMAL, only a REAL SMALL percentage of artists can actually live of their music.

Personally I download a lot to preview stuff I want to buy on cd or not.. If the music doesn't seem all that interesting I delete it (I don't even want it to have space on my harddisk haha). And also, today i've downloaded some kick ass oldschool house VA's (In order to dance / Serious beats, old techno/trance tracks back in the days my uncle provided me tapes of this wonderful music! ) that are really hard to get on cd nowadays and way to expensive for me. I don't feel one bit of shame or guilt. Music should be spread and people who love music also pay for it, thats just the fact.

 

@something ontopic: Piracy will stay alive as long as there is Internet. Also i've seen some big names in the psyscene come and do a 'LIVE (ahem)' act.. using cracked versions of Cubase, so I consider the point made by someone else here that piracy is all over the place, very valid.

[Kalki]

"Make money using Warezed softwares n then pay to the firm"

Thats what we poor music produsers can do

[tamlin]

First of all, i'd just like to say that if it hadn't been for file sharing, i probably wouldn't have gotten my first release with Gi'iwa Productions. In essence, i can probably thank "piracy" for my music career (if i even have such a thing).

 

Second, i download loads of music, but if there's something i really love, i buy it if it's possible to. For the maximum sound quality, and for not wanting to lose my favourite music if my computer crashes or something like that.

 

I think it's great to be able to download music for free and give it a thorough listen before deciding whether i want to buy it.

 

That said, i find myself agreeing most with the "anti-copyists" in this discussion..........

 

Making money of downloaded stuff, like that Russian site that got sued, thats just beyond low.

Hear hear!

They have tracks that i have released FOR FREE and/or have not even released at all, and still they charge money for it. ASSHOLES.

 

You will say "support a few ones you choose". But then how will i hear all the other stuff? How about the few tracks i liked from that album though the rest of it was crap? I'll have to download. So i'm still a pirate, and piracy continious.

As long as you buy at least SOME of your favourite music, then at least you're making a bit of difference. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, you know. Keep downloading if you feel that you have to, but buy and support as much as you can anyway. One doesn't exclude the other.

 

 

If I found a magic wand that could infinitely reproduce a loaf of bread I bought at a bakery so I could feed the whole world would you say I was stealing from the bakery?

Oh, come on!

That's the stupidest analogy i've seen in this discussion.

If there actually were a magic wand that could infinitely reproduce kickass psy out of thin air, then fine.. But in reality there are always actual people and actual work involved.

 

the labels and artists are not just trying to maintain some minimal amount of profit necessary to bring music to the masses. No, they actually want to extract as much profit as they possibly can. But nobody ever complained since its all just part of the capitalist game right? Oh but now the tables have turned and the consumer can find a way around not having to pay for the music and you think it's unethical and a lack of disrespect to the artist? Perhaps its just that the game has taken a new direction where this time the consumer/public is the one getting the benefits.

Bullcrap.

What benefits does the consumer deserve in this situation?? Who did the work?!? What has the consumer actually done other than get an enjoyable auditory experience?

Also there's a huge difference between massive multi-national corporations that bitch about losing half a percent of their multi-million dollar annual profits, and tiny close-to-non-profit psytrance labels that just try to survive. I mean, get real and drop the self-richeous ideologizing. All manners of capitalism are not equal. Using capitalism to expliot everyone else to make yourself stinking rich is not even comparable to using capitalism to be able to make a decent living doing what you love.

[abasio]

[remark: again, this was not directed at you Joseph, because I know you're one crazy music lover in a best possible meaning of this word ]

Don't worry. I steal babies to make up for my lack of stealing music

[exotic]

Oh, come on!

That's the stupidest analogy i've seen in this discussion.

If there actually were a magic wand that could infinitely reproduce kickass psy out of thin air, then fine.. But in reality there are always actual people and actual work involved.

Bullcrap.

What benefits does the consumer deserve in this situation?? Who did the work?!? What has the consumer actually done other than get an enjoyable auditory experience?

Also there's a huge difference between massive multi-national corporations that bitch about losing half a percent of their multi-million dollar annual profits, and tiny close-to-non-profit psytrance labels that just try to survive. I mean, get real and drop the self-richeous ideologizing. All manners of capitalism are not equal. Using capitalism to expliot everyone else to make yourself stinking rich is not even comparable to using capitalism to be able to make a decent living doing what you love.

Dear tamlin this wasnt my opinion , it was a reply i got on another site where i posted this discussion. i was just looking for a counter point for the argument which you did provide!

 

if you read my first post im against piracy and offer my full support to artists and labels by buying as much as i can and not downloading.

[Guest antic]

Dear tamlin this wasnt my opinion , it was a reply i got on another site where i posted this discussion. i was just looking for a counter point for the argument which you did provide!

 

if you read my first post im against piracy and offer my full support to artists and labels by buying as much as i can and not downloading.

Do all people have me on their ignore-list? I did answered most of the points from the post you quoted, yet no one gave me any feedback... Am I writing bulshit or what?

[abasio]

Do all people have me on their ignore-list? I did answered most of the points from the post you quoted, yet no one gave me any feedback... Am I writing bulshit or what?

I don't think you are writing bullshit!

The post that Exotic quoted was all hot air. It sounded good but had no real substance. It was summed up by the opening line which was utter crap! Magic wand

[Guest antic]

I don't think you are writing bullshit!

The post that Exotic quoted was all hot air. It sounded good but had no real substance. It was summed up by the opening line which was utter crap! Magic wand

Hehe, my thought exactly.

Wish I had the skills to write like that

[abasio]

Hehe, my thought exactly.

Wish I had the skills to write like that

Yeah so do I. Then I could sound smart even though I'm not

[tamlin]

Dear tamlin this wasnt my opinion , it was a reply i got on another site where i posted this discussion.

Yes i know.

I thought you might think i was directing it towards you personally, since it said your name in the quote tag.. But of course i was commenting on that other guy's comment. No worries.

 

[edit: i've changed the name in the tags to avoid any further mixups]

 

Do all people have me on their ignore-list? I did answered most of the points from the post you quoted, yet no one gave me any feedback... Am I writing bulshit or what?

Definitely not!

If you had not already given such well formulated answers to some of the bullshit arguments in this thread (especially gumballs' stuff about "a true artist into the MUSIC does now care about the fuckin money they make", etc), then my previous post would have been three times as long.

[exotic]

Yes i know.

I thought you might think i was directing it towards you personally, since it said your name in the quote tag.. But of course i was commenting on that other guy's comment. No worries.

 

[edit: i've changed the name in the tags to avoid any further mixups]

Thank you. makes me feel much better about myself.

[exotic]

Do all people have me on their ignore-list? I did answered most of the points from the post you quoted, yet no one gave me any feedback... Am I writing bulshit or what?

i read your reply and thought you had the exact same opinion as me on the matter.

cheers!

 

edit : i was tempted to quote some of your points on isratrance but i thought that would be cheating

[tamlin]

One important point in this whole debate.......

 

Say what you want about the morality or (dis)respect aspects of copying music and stuff.. That's one part of the issue.

 

But another part of it is that is completely and utterly fucked up is the fact that people are getting fined for like hundreds of thousands or even millions of euros for sharing copyrighted material.

 

I mean, if you're making money off other people stuff, like those russian dickheads or people selling pirate dvd's or whatever, then you definitely deserve to get fined, but normal people (often young people/students with no income) with some movies on their hard drive and some P2P software hardly make any cash off their piracy and do definitely not deserve to have their lives economically destroyed in this way. The punishment is WAAAYYY out of proportion to the crime.

 

This is perhaps not really relevant to the psytrance scene, but it's nevertheless an important part of the whole piracy issue. Standing up for ethics and respect for artists is one thing, but standing up for giant corporations destroying peoples lives over greed is something very different. Not that i'm saying that anyone here is doing that, but still... Might be good to have in mind when deciding to be on the anti-piracy side of the debate.

[D3lirious]

I think record companies adapt quite bad to the ever changing markets. We all know what happens to ANY company that can´t adapt...

Just restricting stuff won´t help... They could try delivering something that outclassess the downloaded products instead, atleast as far as were talking about the big ones

[Drosophila]

This is perhaps not really relevant to the psytrance scene, but it's nevertheless an important part of the whole piracy issue. Standing up for ethics and respect for artists is one thing, but standing up for giant corporations destroying peoples lives over greed is something very different. Not that i'm saying that anyone here is doing that, but still... Might be good to have in mind when deciding to be on the anti-piracy side of the debate.

True... and I don't see those big corporations making art anyway.... they are industries making products made to sell as much as possible, they want to make as big profit as possible.... that also including ripping of the artists (not saying thats not happening in the psy-scene) and trapping them with evil contracts... but these industries do it on such a scale that its utterly destroying creativity in mainstream music... there is simply not room for risk taking makes everything gray and boring...

[Basilisk]

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