Would you buy a resonably-priced CD version of a free/independent release you liked?

[Guest antic]

Does anyone actually keep looking at the same CD artwork once they're familiar with it?

Yes. Best examples - The Lone Deranger, Airborn, Celtic Cross, Matsuri CDs...

I take them out of the box and just stare at them. Come to think of it, all Mark Neal's covers have this effect on me.

 

[exotic]

Does anyone actually keep looking at the same CD artwork once they're familiar with it?

Im still not familiar with the derango cover although ive had the album for about two years now. always find something new on it which i had previously missed or hadnt noticed.

[Charlie]

Yes. Best examples - The Lone Deranger, Airborn, Celtic Cross, Matsuri CDs...

I take them out of the box and just stare at them. Come to think of it, all Mark Neal's covers have this effect on me.

 

Im still not familiar with the derango cover although ive had the album for about two years now. always find something new on it which i had previously missed or hadnt noticed.

Fair play.

[Tatsu]

My point of view as somebody who has been doing this for over five years now:

 

I get something between 600-900 downloads a month for the latest album, but it took me about a year to sell 100 CDs from my site (and some in parties) for 10e apiece, including postage.

 

A part of the problem is tricky net payments. Paypal is OK, but IIRC they leech almost one euro for each CD i sell Then there's direct bank transfers, which should be OK inside EU at least. (for some reason Belgians especially are fond of these?)

 

So one trick could be to find a real distributor for the CD so people could buy it in normal record stores.

 

The CDs I sell are factory made CDRs with nice enough sleeves and disc graphics, and I would say that 99% of the people don't know or care about the difference to pressed discs really. I believe that modern factory-made CDRs are supposed to last quite well.

 

Also I know that pirates of my CDs sell for about 20 bucks in at least one Moscow collectible record store. And dozens of Russian MP3 sites sell downloads of my music, which is indicative of a fan base large enough, that some people don't even realize that they could download the same music for free from our site...

And actually I've been talking to somebody who actually bought such a pirate just to get it in audio quality... The mysterious "audio quality" religion is deeply rooted in the scene. I would say that 320kbs MP3s have practically no difference to the originals, especially with the kind of soundsystems people use usually to listen to the music...

 

I have some pretty fanatic fans in East Europe and Israel especially, but the thing is that young people these days are not used to buying CDs... Granted, there's some people who said to me that my CD is the first "DJ" album they bought just because they love the music so much, but these are a minority. In fact, I haven't seen too many original CDs in the last year of travelling (even at the organisers' houses!), if I think about it...

And even CDRs are getting redunant because some DJs only play from Traktor. "No worries about scratched discs anymore"...

 

So from my experience, I would say that don't have too high hopes for selling free releases these days... (and judging from discussions with my label owning friends: good luck selling _any_ CDs these days!)

 

As I see it, by distributing free music, I push out around 10000 copies yeach year in the best scenario, and add to this the fact that many MP3s I see of my music are NOT from our site, for some reason or another, so in total there is probably around 50-100K people each year receiving my album, when counting for all the copies people spread to their friends and so on...

And yes I DO have some ideas about turning that amount circulation into money... But that will have to wait until I have my next album ready...

This reminds me, I still need to pay (or to donate or whatever you wanna call it) for the Electro Fluoro Punx album, I really love it. But once again I'm broke right now. But sooner or later...

[vancbc]

I would absolutely buy a CD version of a free/independent release I liked.

 

I'm a CD collector and usually don't even bother going to the trouble to download or listen ot the free releases anyway, no matter how much positive hype they get. I'm kind of impatient and just can't be bothered to get the software or fiddle around to get the various download formats to play.

 

Plus, if I like something I like to have the CD case in my collection. It's part of the whole experience to listen to the music while examining the artwork, reading through track listings, etc.

[Basilisk]

So it seems as if there are two main points of discussion developing from this poll:

 

1) CD-R quality. Is this a matter of the disc longevity or the surrounding packaging? In both regards, the automated factory I'm investigating is said to be equivalent to a traditional CD manufacturing process. Essentially, the on-demand feature that would permit this to happen is reliant on the ability to duplicate as opposed to using a glass master (which incurs a significant one-time cost). Printing several hundred copies of a freely distributed release and then hoping to sell them all to cover costs is in no way economically feasible. After all, even labels dealing exclusively with physical products have a difficult time making ends meet these days! Luckily, with no setup costs, this idea can be tried and tested either way.

 

2) Making money. Never have I thought this might be a good way to make some coin; in fact, money hasn't even been in the picture except to figure what to do with the small profits that could be made from individual on-demand CD sales. The purpose of the initiative (as I see it) is to provide fans and listeners who enjoy a freely distributed netlabel/independent release with a means of purchasing a physical product. After all, some people keep saying "where can I buy this on CD?" This sort of comment is exactly what caused me to investigate what could be done! Anything else is merely a bonus at this stage.

 

A few other thoughts, while I'm on the subject:

 

It is possible on-demand CD sales could provide a bit of support to the artist(s) and/or label involved in producing, packaging, promoting, and distributing the free release in the first place, but before this idea is tried, no one can forecast what the numbers will look like. The purpose as I see it is to provide the option to purchase a physical copy. This goes not only for listeners and fans, but also the artist(s) and/or labels involved. The ability to print professional-looking physical copies of a freely distributed release at cost is sure to have its advantages. One could easily sell or give away copies of a release at events, for instance. Many free releases are made with a promotional intent, and of course, the value of an impressive looking product sent by mail far exceeds what a bland CD-R in an envelope can do for an artist!

 

Anyhow, it looks like I may get a chance to try this out. I've been asking the artists involved in the first Ektoplazm netlabel release if they are interested in the idea, and so far the response has been quite positive. If everyone agrees then I'll fit it into the release plan! Otherwise, I'll wait for another chance to give it a go. To me, this seems like such a fine way to address one glaring limitation of digital releases: the inability to hold something in your hands. But, as always, this is all part of a work-in-progress, and I greatly appreciate feedback from the psytrance community-at-large! Thanks

[Darkarbiter]

So your thinking about releasing a compilation CD Basilisk?

[Basilisk]

Working on it, as a matter of fact... but it will be, first and foremost, a free-to-download netlabel release in MP3 and WAV. Making a CD available through on-demand printing is a sort of side project I am exploring, and in this case, will only happen with the consent of the artists involved.

[Kai-Q]

I would buy more a CD or CD-R instead of some MP3's.

[Blaze]

I would buy more a CD or CD-R instead of some MP3's.

+1

[abasio]

I would, even on CD-R

 

IF I liked it

[filitico]

You prefer to live in arab countries instead? I'm sure they don't have fedex. and they hate the modern western world too.

hoping you were being sarcastic there.

 

fedex, ups, whatever deliver worldwide. without them many people would have to fly to germany and visit the psyshop warehouse. what a pain in the ass. I'd do it in October for obvious reasons though

[filitico]

this can be done as a cooperative

 

1. gather some netlabels and graphic artists to produce cd packaging for the albums up for pressing

2. use existing duplication technology that has as good quality as replication

3. expenses will be less through the cooperative's collective load.

4. use a fed-ex or ups etc mail-to-order system or go to #6

5. automate the process like how newegg.com does it by giving shipment tracking numbers etc

6. get some distribution deals with a major record label *

7. combine with online distribution (aka like kompakt does for small minimal techno labels)

8. done deal

 

the pay for albums can be done by splitting the gross income - tax, management labor, etc

what's left (and should be streamlined with some good ol' fashioned negotiating with all the label reps on msn or something )

then a split of percentages according to quantity pressed (which will be controlled by a vote by the co-op on each album up for release)

 

 

for example:

3 netlabels gather

5 albums will be pressed

co-op (one vote per label & 1 for co-op manager) votes on how many of each are pressed

5 album presses will offset the 1000 minimum requirements no problem

the 5 albums

a. 400, b. 300 c, d, e. 100 e/a

 

album "a." gets 40% of the collected moneyetc

 

and all 3 netlabels get what they wanted: low quantity distribution and a small profit to justify the effort

 

to pay the artists (each netlabel can take it on with them by cutting a %deal with them on the album they designed for)

example:

album "a." gives graphic artist a 20% cut of whatever the album sells for

in this (very small case) that 20% of 400 albums pressed is the mechanical royalty of 80 albums.

if this co-op thing can be streamlined, one could make up to $3-4 (or maybe more i dont know for sure) per album even after costs so that could be a good deal for the graphic artist involved.

 

so for this example, lets just say that on a first try $2 is made per album after all expenses. well thats $800 for album "a." which the graphic artist (20%) gets $160

 

and not much work was put into it

 

 

* having a distribution deal is NOT the same as them producing your record or collecting your publishing royalties (of which your label should go register at the local ASCAP or BMI office). what you do is have them use their already working distribution channels and putting out your cds out everywhere. their take is earning some through the product distribution of a medium scale co-op, and if there are enough labels and product, and a reasonable profit margin they will do it. **

 

** large record labels are fighting for profit. fighting them vs. working with (not "for") them...which will you choose?

 

 

i hope that was helpful

this is how I would do it anyway. the more people think like this or improve on it the better

 

 

if i messed up the numbers, i hope you get what i mean with this comment instead of just nitpicking on some typo :posford:

 

 

btw, if any of you are up for this...PM me because i sure will be going in this direction in the near future (for physical media)

[Basilisk]

Well, the concept is live! You can now buy the first two releases on the Ektoplazm netlabel direct from the factory... and the same goes for Jikkenteki's excellent album Flights Of Infinity!

 

The next step is the development of a proper online shop for these CDs... currently we are bootstrapping off the complimentary order screen at the factory but we can do better. I hope to have something live in the next couple of months.

 

Anyhow, I did want to update this thread and thank everyone for their contribution for the discussion. I am very excited that the dream--free downloads and physical media for those that want it--has become a reality!

[Agneton]

Well, the concept is live! You can now buy the first two releases on the Ektoplazm netlabel direct from the factory...

Are we talking about Kunaki shop here? Phototropic uses the same technique now, but appearently these are just well-made

CD-R's, no CD's! They could mention that more clearly on the website!

Anyway, if I'm speaking without the right context, ignore what I just said...

[Anoebis]

Are we talking about Kunaki shop here? Phototropic uses the same technique now, but appearently these are just well-made

CD-R's, no CD's! They could mention that more clearly on the website!

Anyway, if I'm speaking without the right context, ignore what I just said...

It are CDR's And I have to kick your ass as I had them here today you told me they were real

 

But the idea is very cool for sure Alexander! Good luck with it

[Basilisk]

They're duplicated, not replicated... but there isn't a serious difference in quality. These CDs are not what you get when you go to the store and buy a spool and then burn a disc on your desktop PC, that's for sure

[Melancholyman]

Well the quality might not be top notch but still it's a way for persons wanting to support the artist to do so. And getting something in return, I'm eagerly awaiting the Protoun Kinoun album (dunno if I got that right)

[Jikkenteki]

Are we talking about Kunaki shop here? appearently these are just well-made

CD-R's, no CD's!

Well not all CDR's are created equally. Kunaki's product is duplicated, but they are not the traditional "green backs" most people imagine when you mention CDR's. At this point the quality difference between a duplicated disc and a glass mastered pressed one is more an issue of the quality of the printing plant and not the metion used. Many of the cheaper traditional printing plants in many countries are actually making an inferior product, and in the dance music industry where money is seriously tight, many labels are using these cheaper factories simple out of need. Someone also mentioned the CDR's have bit-rot issues, but actually, traditionally glass mastered CD's also equally have bit-rot issues. Personally to date my experience is the opposite in that I have had a number of "real" glass mastered CD's become worthless due to bit-rot, but have yet to have a CDR fail because of it.

 

PAR-2 was hesitant of using Kunaki for quite a while because we didn't want to sell "green backs" and various other issues. However having finally seen the real product, together with the complete failure of "Mainspring Motion" sales-wise (since its release last summer we still haven't received money for more than 30 copies, not to mention all our other releases to date, none of which have broken even), despite having almost entirely positive feedback, forced us to rethink everything. It was either close shop entirely, or go this new route focusing on free downloads and these CDs for the rare few who would buy them anyways. Having made the switch, well, our CD sales are pretty much the same, but now there is a prayer that we can actually make our money back on the new release, and in addition there aren't several hundred useless copies floating around in my closet that I can't sell. We'd "like" to continue with the traditional glass mastered method, but it simply isn't possible anymore.

[frozen dream]

+1 but not morons, technologically challenged

socially and personally

[Agneton]

It are CDR's And I have to kick your ass as I had them here today you told me they were real

Yeah that was somewhat naive of me, but I didn't say it because I was trying to mislead you!

I found out some time ago when Harald told me these were CD-R's (he was convinced these were CD's for some time as well)...

I didn't even saw it when I had the CD's in my hand... like Jikkenteki explains, the difference is barely viewable.

Only time will tell if these CD-R's can beat CD's I guess.

[Basilisk]

I posted this in the Amitabha Buddha thread but figured I should copy and paste it here:

 

On the subject of CD vs CDr: manufacturing technology is constantly improving. Consumer-grade CDrs have long been regarded as unreliable but you have to remember two important facts: a lot of time has passed since that reputation was earned and the manufacturing plants aren't using consumer-grade media anyhow. If you actually visit a variety of CD manufacturing web sites you will find they often claim there is no longer a qualitative difference between replication (glass mastered CDs) and duplication (CDrs). Do a little research and see for yourself!

[abasio]

Research? What is the meaning of this?

Just randomly posting half truths I hear & doggedly stick by for years FTW :posford:

[supergroover]

I would buy when it is no CDR... if it is properly printed, and I like the music, i'll buy for sure!

+1

[alleycat]

Sure, I would! Especially if the free release is mp3 and the CD is of course CD quality. I feel kinda lame playing mp3's in a set. Maybe its just me, but, in certain 'moods' you really can hear the difference in quality. CD audio just sounds fuller, especially in teh lower end.