rant about people opinions and stuff.

[Verb]

Okay. I just saw Jackson Pollock movie (starring ed harris...)

so for those of you who know anything about that movie or that artist and what he was about, maybe you can get an idea as to why im writing this whole rant thing.

i need to Express myself about this subject in a manner and context where it can be read by people who will be provoked and by people who'll learn something.

 

---

 

i see alot of opinions about music. reviews with sentences like

"not any great melodies"

 

"the lala is just okay"

 

and im thinking: who the hell are they to presume to know what the artist wanted to convey?

 

as a student of art(visual), which is more focused on the artist as Individual, than the paintings themselves... whereby the art expressed is dependent on the person or individual expressing it.

 

so as when the artist has sacrificed his ego on the altar of creativity, his brush will be free from distortion...

 

Anyway, when i see someone saying something like that, Not so graet melodies or whatnot. im thinking Fuck, who does he/she think heshe is?

personaly, i dont make melodies to make anyone else happy, fuck i dont make melodies to make anyone happy, not me not anyone.

 

and when you're sitting there it's very obvious to most awakened artists, i presume, what kindof melodies to make. And that they make themselves. And that EVERY melody has its own expression

and that no melody is better or worse than any other melody. Unless they're there for a purpose...

 

So thats a question i have for all you guys who's ever said "not very good melodies" to some track, some album, or anything... What the fuck do you know? How does this melody Fail before another Melody at doing What? What is it that all melodies are tryyying to do in your mind that makes it hierarchicly structured?

 

I think that's an insane way to aproach music, because it would seem like you have this Mirror image inside, that you want to find Outside yourself. and you get this point of view thats just beside yourself.

And naturaly no melody is the best fuckin melody when you're at that.

 

Sorry for ranting on like this. But it's so weird that a culture thats stacked with intelligence, you still see presumptious shit, and you still find that the subject of a Musician is treated in much the same way as any Producer of Stuff out there.

 

For me, being a musician is my spiritual practice. and i do what i do because i have to do it. and It bothers me to see that the people who get "put up there" in a sortof "that guy knows what he's talking about" way, Seems to know Nothing about music.

 

If Psychedelic Trance has a PURPOSE, it's fucking lost all that i call psychedelic. and since it IS (suposed to be) psychedelic, it's very hard to form any opinion without expressing more about yourself, than about the music. Is that so hard to see?

 

i mean, i've dropped acid a hundred fuckin times, and a hundred more of other wierd hardtopronounce psychedelic substances and plants

and i STILL DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE AS HOW TO DEFINE THE WORD PSYCHEDELIC. For me it goes beyond words and thats why i think music is so good for it. But it feels like it's been twisted around with this whole i like this or dont like that. When it's ALWAYS been about Happenings. What Happens when this or that track is played. what the fuck does it do to you? and was the artist aware of this? can you see his or her face in the production? is Simon smiling at you through the rantings in shamanix? can you see an artist in the suggestive rythms of early son kite albums? The music i've come to LOVE is the stuff that provokes me to the point where im not sure at all what i THINK about it. because it forces me to really really Listen, all the way through... not just Up to the point where the break comes, or where it climaxes, but all the way through keep my eyes focused and steady, Time going verticaly, nondualistic attitude. Otherwise whats the point?

 

i ask myself, Is this good music? and for an answer i become deeply aware of what "it" is doing. sound is coming out of the speakers, my conciousness is pointed hither and dither in the music, and during that long lasting moment of usualy, what, 7½ minute? does it produce any coherent vision? has it done anything? where did it take me? IS IT AWARE OF ITSELF?

those are valid questions i think. but Are the melodies GOOD?! what the fuck. how can ANYONE answer that question without knowing exactly what the POINT WAS WITH THEM?

 

i think so many of you on this forum, and i cant come up with names because i dont remember any, should just stop and listen for a second. and maybe go beyond this whole good bad shit and come to the actual focalpoint. the fucking sweetspot. where it happens. otherwise you'll just run around misleading people who want to learn about something. If you think you're good at judging music, and you happen to be in a situation where your opinions actualy matter, where what you say can make a difference to people, Be careful about what you say... and be GOod at it.

 

also, i would like to elaborate as what being good at it would mean. generaly anyway. Being good at it means including your own limited subjective view into the calculations.

it also means that in whatever criticism or praise you give, you're concious of the fact that there are Millions of things that took part in the forming of your opinion.

And that it's your viewpoint being expressed. Even though that goes without saying, it's really a good idea to point that out alot of times. because we STILL forget it alot of the times. it's problely the main reason why i got the impulsion to write this in the first place.

 

 

yeah okay.

 

ranted enough. thanks.

 

 

theres alot of music i simply dont like, for various reasons that seems to alter in the meanwhile im expressing myself about it

[Veracohr]

i see alot of opinions about music. reviews with sentences like

"not any great melodies"

 

"the lala is just okay"

 

and im thinking: who the hell are they to presume to know what the artist wanted to convey?

 

as a student of art(visual), which is more focused on the artist as Individual, than the paintings themselves... whereby the art expressed is dependent on the person or individual expressing it.

 

so as when the artist has sacrificed his ego on the altar of creativity, his brush will be free from distortion...

 

Anyway, when i see someone saying something like that, Not so graet melodies or whatnot. im thinking Fuck, who does he/she think heshe is?

personaly, i dont make melodies to make anyone else happy, fuck i dont make melodies to make anyone happy, not me not anyone.

The way I see it, which probably isn't a very common point of view, is that for the listener, it really doesn't matter what the author intended. Any importance a piece of art has for someone other than the creator is in the mind of the observer. The emotional responses I get from listening to music may have nothing to do with what the writers intended, but it doesn't matter. What a song means to me is the only thing I care about. If I happen to learn what a song means to its writer, and it is similar to what it means to me, that's cool. But if not, oh well. If someone pours their heart and soul into a song that passes right by me, I don't care. If I don't like a song, I'm not going to try to just because it's a deeply personal song to the person who wrote it. Most of my music is very personal, but I don't go around trying to make people understand what it means to me. There's no point.

[reger]

+1 verachor

 

i dont care to be fair, what artists wanted to tell, if i dont like that music, i dont like it. different strokes for different folks, the same can be applied to story behind the music. i dont like music, i dont like story, either both. just because there is something artists try to say doesnt mean its all good and people should like it. sure, everyone has their rights to express themselves, but that does not automatically grant admiration and recognition. there is good music, and there is bad music and it all comes down to taste and to some extent to the way it all has been served, fed to listeners, the ideas and the music itself and ofcourse the level of information-education among listeners.

[rino]

+1 verachor

 

i dont care to be fair, what artists wanted to tell, if i dont like that music, i dont like it. different strokes for different folks, the same can be applied to story behind the music. i dont like music, i dont like story, either both. just because there is something artists try to say doesnt mean its all good and people should like it. sure, everyone has their rights to express themselves, but that does not automatically grant admiration and recognition. there is good music, and there is bad music and it all comes down to taste and to some extent to the way it all has been served, fed to listeners, the ideas and the music itself and ofcourse the level of information-education among listeners.

It may not happen that often, but when reger has a point, it is fucking hard not to give it to him!

Spot on, mr. smiley! When I pay for my music, and subsequently do not like it, I could give two shits about what the artist was trying to say? Should I? No. Who do I think I am? A consumer. That is right! A consumer, who willingly spends his own money in order to support a certain artist. Does that mean I have to know what the mentioned artist was trying to say? It certainly does not. And frankly, I do not care- if I do not like a certain melody or sound, I just don't like it... And the "who the fuck do you think you are?" attitude is soooooooo out of place here... Or maybe it isn't? Why don't we all just quit buying music, quit listening to it, and therefore stop writting reviews and expressing opinions? Bottom line is: who the fuck are we to say what is good and what isn't? Right?

[Verb]

The way I see it, which probably isn't a very common point of view, is that for the listener, it really doesn't matter what the author intended. Any importance a piece of art has for someone other than the creator is in the mind of the observer. The emotional responses I get from listening to music may have nothing to do with what the writers intended, but it doesn't matter. What a song means to me is the only thing I care about. If I happen to learn what a song means to its writer, and it is similar to what it means to me, that's cool. But if not, oh well. If someone pours their heart and soul into a song that passes right by me, I don't care. If I don't like a song, I'm not going to try to just because it's a deeply personal song to the person who wrote it. Most of my music is very personal, but I don't go around trying to make people understand what it means to me. There's no point.

Okay, well, the way i see it, there's really no such thing As You or I in that dualistic sense. But, i also agree with you. let me explain...

As a listener you are entitled to listen and do whatever you want or have any attitude towards any music.

 

The importance of a piece of art isnt necessarily there for the creator either... See. this is what im talking about. Being able to listen to music from more points of view than this reactionbased i like this i like that view is Critical in order to progress in our way of understanding music and creativity.

 

As a student of art, learning to SEE beyond the picture is ESSENTIAL to being a good artist. and also to be a good writer about art.

And the thing is, there really is just one guy around. you, god, he she it is.

 

And if you know what you're doing as a listener, and the artist knew what he was doing as an artist, Which is being at the very forefront of one's ability to stay put in a concious moment, the mind of the artist and the mind of the observer blends together. Ofcourse proving this is nonsensical.

 

But i just asume that most people here have synchronistic experiences and i also asume that most people here don't just wave those out the window as "coincidences"

 

I really do belive you can get to know someone by listening to their music

just as logical as you can get to know someone by hearing what they're saying.

 

But that you'll have an intellectual understanding, like "this guy likes blue shoes" is just stupid. and not what im saying. im not saying you're going to understand anything about the intentions or whatnots of the artist, but that once you're in synch with it, there IS information there, and it IS real. and expressing that as good as you can is a very noble and humbling experience.

And i think that's what's needed for any progress to happen.

 

"Any importance a piece of art has for someone other than the creator is in the mind of the observer."

is a statement that just doesnt hold up in my book anymore. because it eliminates all the reason to express anything about what anyone means.

it alienates us completely. atleast if you draw it to its extremes. and if there wasn't this tiny thread of hope that it's problely not like that, i don't see why you would've expressed yourself in the first place.

 

And here's another important thing to consider, what if the artist is actualy going to music as a medium for expressing something that words were just not adequate enough to express?

 

 

+1 verachor

 

i dont care to be fair, what artists wanted to tell, if i dont like that music, i dont like it. different strokes for different folks, the same can be applied to story behind the music. i dont like music, i dont like story, either both. just because there is something artists try to say doesnt mean its all good and people should like it. sure, everyone has their rights to express themselves, but that does not automatically grant admiration and recognition. there is good music, and there is bad music and it all comes down to taste and to some extent to the way it all has been served, fed to listeners, the ideas and the music itself and ofcourse the level of information-education among listeners.

No, it doesnt come Down to taste etc.

thats where we're at Now. Sure it's the most rational way to view this.

that it comes down to taste

and i can't prove at all that i know what you mean as an artist, and an artist cant tell me anyting better than by playing the music.

But what im saying is that it's not necessarily Dual in the sense like Creator - Observer. it can be something Shared.

 

the process is always shown in the way the brushstrokes are laid on the canvas. and Why the painting is at that gallery, with these colours, in this time of the year, during these circumstances.

and there are rare occasions where you can actualy SEE this in the picture. the artist Winks at you, and it's very easy to point out if you're standing there. but to put it in words...

 

If put in words, for the rational guy, he'll come with the "you cant know you know. thats just in your head", and thats fine, its true in it's sense. But, there are lots of viewpoints to consider here, that have their own set of rules....

 

for the prerational it might be something like "thats because the fairies went in your head and whispered the truth in your ear", and that might also be true. if you allow one view, there's got to be room for another. but it doesnt mean that they agree with eachother.

 

But what we DO need, that is completely lacking, is a Postrational viewpoint from listeners.

And at that level of awareness and Love for music, Artist and listener become one. And expressing becomes alot harder.

 

What I'm whining about, is that i can't find a decent reviewer who includes More Viewpoints than either "i simply like it and i dont know why" or "This is good, because it's so phat". It's all babyshit. No1 dares cross the line where you're actualy saying anything of value, something that provokes the limitations of who we are and whats possible. we're all just shoving our agenda down other peoples throats.

 

im tired of it. i want reviews from people who aren't just rational, but emotional, babylike in their listenning, stonehard intellectuals, i want everything, But, there can't be this complete dominance of One Point Of View. Which is as i said earlier, but in other words, an ego lost and alone in a body of flesh. There are TONS of ways you can view things through, and ALL are valid.

 

so im not REALLY saying that what reviewers or listeners who express their opinions alot is bad, but that there's SO MUCH MORE TO IT. but as long as we're stuck at rational Freudian seperate ego plataeu of forming our wordly expressions, Music won't be honored the way it can be.

 

like, when did poetry become a lousy way to express yourself about something, yet we all go straight to the "i like it" or "i dont like it" and in this society thats Perfectly alright, because i cant know whats in your head because im an ego alone in this world just like you. WRONG.

it's a valid viewpoint, But there are LOTS MORE.

 

there. must've said it a million times now.

 

EDIT: id like to add that i think picking music you like or dont like is a perfectly good way to get music, i usualy when i go browse vinyl at local store, i just listen a couple of seconds before i turn side and have decided. But when it comes down to expressing anything about music, i find i have to go beyond myself in order to honor what it is that im experiencing Through myself.

 

EDIT2: Also, we have to recognize that there really IS something beyond rational. that there is a state of mind and a stage of mind, where there really is no seperateness. and that this is a completely valid and True experience and state of being. and that this is also what's usualy called the ground of being. and i dare say that MOST music comes from this ground of being, or it's trying to get at it, bite it down and trap it down, and it's a wild dance. But to just leave things at the rational level puts us in a dead end.

[Verb]

you know, what's the point at all with psynews and reviewing music if it's just a whole big bunch of opinions floating around that i can never understand or get to know intimately?

why do you bother expressing anything in the first place if you asume that no1 will ever understand anything about what you're saying anyway?

 

For fun and because we're egocentered? and lets leave it at that....? haha nothanks. id like to keep arguing forever rather than settle down for one view on everything. but maybe that's because im a verb.

 

Most of my music is very personal, but I don't go around trying to make people understand what it means to me. There's no point.

very true. personaly i just put it on, and i dont open my mouth at all unless i see a spark of something in their eyes. a spark that they have as much trouble expressing as i have.

and at that point, it's great fun to discuss and describe things. because you end up with all your differences infront of you, and through that you have another fun medium to get to know who you are and what distinguishes you from everyone else.

 

 

EDIT: Another funny thing is that any rational person who looks at any viewpoint expressing anything post OR prerational, seems to just draw a line and put Everything in the prerational area. There's nothing sacred, there's nothing magical anywhere, and it's basicaly ones own mind and weird stuff you're experiencing.

 

And there are some that take prerational statements and puts them in the postrational category.

 

The thing is, a rational person can take Everything i've said, and put it down as invalid philosophical nonsense. But ONLY with Rational tools of understanding. And we have to sieze rationalising everything. and putting rationalism at the Highest peak, like thats where its at. There's lots of places where It Is at.

We need to stop having this extreme fetish about rational thought. because it's limiting our ways of undersatnding and expressing ourselves. Transpersonal experiences that goes beyond words are a day to day thing for most people these days, and to continue treating them through our Rational way doesnt make sense.

 

 

 

and im sorry guys for writing sooo much and not being very good at expressing myself. But it's a forum and i like to keep it at a normal level, and not bookishly correct. hehehe.

[reger]

imo it becomes shared, when people enjoy ones music, what more should artists need, 10000 word analytical essay on the subject of ones release with constant expressions of listeners agreement to artists concept and ego boosting?

 

Does that mean I have to know what the mentioned artist was trying to say? It certainly does not.

and that is, should be, atleast to some extent if someone disagrees with me here, the magic of music, youre free to interpret that way you see it [unless being some braindead wanker, but were talking about sane people here, so lets skip it ] and artists are free to use whatever tools and means of expressing their story, cause they are, atleast theoreticaly, free to do so. thats why it should be creation - im talking about both here, artists creating music, touching our imagination and listeners creating their thoughts on this matter, feeling music aswell.

[Verb]

imo it becomes shared, when people enjoy ones music, what more should artists need, 10000 word analytical essay on the subject of ones release with constant expressions of listeners agreement to artists concept and ego boosting?

Well, what we all see is this hype about Some labels, Some artists, and Some styles. and I can also see that at events where they're playing music that basicaly goes with the same recepie for the entire night, and then switches to "morningdaymusic" at exactly the right moment... you know. it just doesnt feel right.

 

and we're all pretty weak human beings, we fall for group stuff all the time, and most of us aren't capable of handling criticism or anything at all, we just find ways to get comments and avoid criticism against our person. I think this is in large because we easily identify ourselves with words and concepts. so the first defense is to build a self out of concepts that protects against things like "you're a fucking gay retard".

 

And because we work like this, seeing any review from any big magazine on any artist on any genre, affects us, especialy people who have a hard time keeping there defenses up, they usualy end up surfing along someone elses opinions and just leave all authority to them.

 

So we have this really good scene here, psychedelic trance music. But what you see is millions of small labels, and a few dominating big ones.

 

And what i want is Less 2pages about what was really cool at that time in the track, and more analytical essays, Yes. but not 10000 words. But i want to see a passionate engagement with music instead of with whats in or out cool or not cool.

 

Take Simon Posford as an example, i've never read Any opinion from him. i've actualy never heard of anyone whos heard simon talk at all, but i've searched around because i enjoy hsi music

And what i've found is that he hasn't really said anything, he's just made music.

 

And he's the guy who can fill the mainfloor at any party, with DJing shpongle tracks.

THis guy is Seriously Up There. if he wrote a book about spirituality, alot of people would problely just swallow it whole because it's Simon Godford.

 

he's a genious, yeah, but there's alot of geniouses, and he's up there laregely in part because alot of people say he's a genious. So we DO get affected by what people say in reviews, or more specificaly, by what "the cool guys" say. So im basicaly saying that if you're one o those cool guys that people listen to, Take Some More Time Listening and atleast TRY to incorporate more viewpoints than the rational ones (endless in count) Postrational (also endless ways of viewing through this one) and prerational.

 

And if this were to happen, if people would start writing reviews that makes it hard for the reader to just repeat and say "yes, i agree exactly, That Sucks" it'll losen the grip on this whole "dont look at me, im just following that guy" syndrome. that i think is behind all the CRAPPY music out there. Reviewers need to promote Listening actively, and forming your own opinion, not promote their own. I have people around me who look up to me for advice in alot of areas, and i do my very best not to make them fucked up in thinking im correct in anything really. and i think thats a healthy way to go about with having any authority on any subject. Make People Think For Themselves, dont just flaunt your own thoughts.

 

so yeah, We need more 10000 word essays than we need blunt "this is cool" "this isnt"...

[slyman2.0]

no offense but i think trying to make some rational arguements about art really only has its place in an art school context. in reality its nonsense. something looks good, it sounds nice, food taste good or bad, i like it or i dont. i can write an essay on why i love indian food and give all these variables vs other food and why i think its superior, who cares though. my mom hates it, cant stand all the spices, some essay on it is just meaningless and would never change the fact that she just doesn't like indian food.

i actually like Jackson Pollack, i hate marc rothko. i'm sure i can find a million art student dissertations on why both are genious and why both suck. its ultimately a drunk guy throwing paint on a canvs vs a guy drawing boxes. your eye likes it or it does not.

if anything i think this bullshit is why i don't bother going to see any modern art openings anymore. its all nonsense, its all rational with some art student nonsense like this as opposed to just being pleasing or not. the last one i went to was at the college here. gi joe action figures with ketchup on it. the artist was going on about all his intentions and all this stupidity but in reality it was just toys with ketchup on them. i'll pass.

[Otto Matta]

First of all, people, it's "genius". Not "genious." Thanks. Pet peeve of mine.

 

Verb, I hear you. I've also been an art student in the past - art undergrad, architecture grad - and I also write music. We're clearly the sensitive, creative types. If we can't or don't create we go crazy. I hear you.

 

I just want to respond by saying that there's a very good, and very complex, reason why we create. And I don't think it's an act entirely insulated from the outside world. I don't believe you when you say you don't care about other people when you make melodies. I don't believe you because the expression of art is, I believe, a form of communication. Sure, you may not be attempting to communicate with everybody, but you are attempting to make contact with those you consider worth contacting. Maybe it's five people. Maybe a hundred. But they're the ones you essentially want as friends or allies. They're your kind, your spiritual nodes, if I may be so flaketastic. Our art, I really believe (and I admit I could merely speaking for myself), is the attempt to reach people like ourselves. Artists are alone in the world because there are so few of us. We and the philosophers are the tip of the iceberg of humanity (Schopenhauer). And it's that lonliness that causes us to reach out to those who just might understand and appreciate us in the way we prefer to be understood and appreciated, and we're just not going to get that sort of contact with 99.99% of people.

 

So I can't help but feel that your complaints - which I can certainly relate to to an extent - are caused by existential lonliness, from getting heckled by the void. Your only option, seems to me, is to toughen up and get better at creating. Climb to the mountain cave, hang out for as long as it takes, and when you're ready, come back down and share what you've learned with the people.

[Somseensee]

taste and desires and not intention of the creator for me...

 

I don't care about intentions, for example Muses rapt(and lots of other melodic artists) has good creative intentions as an artist and wants to give his emotions to the audience in his way. I understand what he wants to give, but I don't find it in his music because it doesn't correspond with my personality and taste (for me his depth is shallow and easy, not interesting)... And I think it is the right of the listener to critise something, just always use phrase with I think, I feel , IMO,... etc. so that readers who are on the same line with your general opinion on music can relate and others can put your view aside...

[Melancholyman]

Even a broken clock gets to be right twice a day...

[Guest antic]

for example Muses rapt(and lots of other melodic artists) has good creative intentions as an artist and wants to give his emotions to the audience in his way. I understand what he wants to give, but I don't find it in his music because it doesn't correspond with my personality and taste (for me his depth is shallow and easy, not interesting)...

Great example! I was always wondering what is it that everyone see in his music (I'm referring to the track "Spiritual Healing"), claiming that it is so emotional? To me it sounds incredibly cheesy and badly produced. Although I do recognise that he was happy when he created it...

[abasio]

I must be tired 'cause I am not sure what you're trying to say.

 

You think that people shouldn't express their opinions? That if someone doesn't like a particular track or melody then it's wrong for them to say so? If someone likes something then they also shouldn't say anything? You think sharing opinions is wrong because a lot of people can't form their own opinions & blindly follow what others say?

 

I can't say that I agree if this is what you mean! People that can't form their own opinions are never going to. If I write a review that merely says you should listen to it & find out for yourself people with no ability to think for themselves are just not going to bother. Whereas if I write a really opinionated review, people that can form their own opinions are not just going to blindly follow mine.

 

Stifling people's opinions because they might be negative is a bit overly hippyish IMO. If an artist doesn't want their work to be judged then they shouldn't release it to the public. I like seeing how other people's opinions differ from my own & I like sharing my own opinions too, not sure why but I do so why should I stop? Because you don't like it? Nah, you have a different opinion than me about this subject but that doesn't make you right, it doesn't make me right, it's opinion.

 

Sorry if I completely missed the point. It's been a long day

[Verb]

no offense but i think trying to make some rational arguements about art really only has its place in an art school context. in reality its nonsense. something looks good, it sounds nice, food taste good or bad, i like it or i dont. i can write an essay on why i love indian food and give all these variables vs other food and why i think its superior, who cares though. my mom hates it, cant stand all the spices, some essay on it is just meaningless and would never change the fact that she just doesn't like indian food.

i actually like Jackson Pollack, i hate marc rothko. i'm sure i can find a million art student dissertations on why both are genious and why both suck. its ultimately a drunk guy throwing paint on a canvs vs a guy drawing boxes. your eye likes it or it does not.

if anything i think this bullshit is why i don't bother going to see any modern art openings anymore. its all nonsense, its all rational with some art student nonsense like this as opposed to just being pleasing or not. the last one i went to was at the college here. gi joe action figures with ketchup on it. the artist was going on about all his intentions and all this stupidity but in reality it was just toys with ketchup on them. i'll pass.

Okay, im not gonna jump right back at you as a simple reaction, i've read it through, and as i sortof mentioned in my texts also there's a certain way to aproach things which is either prerational rational or postrational.

 

So i agree with you, we can't be rational beyond if something looks good its good and there's asbsolutely no point trying to express anything beyond that final statement. It's rationalitys bottomline in this context.

 

But i belive there really are ways of expressing things at diffrent levels here. I'm arguing that there really is a point to trying to express beyond those simple lines. and i belive that on the basis of my own experience.

sure, to compelte strangers it can be very hard to transfer some deep insight about something in a few short words, but with good (sane)friends and in a context of say psychedelics just to make it more extreme, there's a communication that takes places there that's based on the fact that some things Can't be expressed in words, so you end up with that rational bottomline hanging inbetween you. And once you look at eachother, straight in the eyes, and you say "but this really isn't what im getting at." and your friend responds "i know, i see it too". These things happens All the time, to EVERYONE. in one way or another.

But trying to get that communication with "the public eye" is indeed hard, and requires alot from both Listener/reader and from the artist and writer.

If a reader has a rational aproach, or has his horizon put inline with the "rational line" so to speak, he won't see if there's a couple of eyes looking back at him behind the text, in the sense in How it was written. What is conveyed beyond the facets of language so to speak. sure it might be a very deep question for some people, but as for me, I've had radical awakening experiences regularly occuring to me since i was 17 years old, and there's rather small amounts of communication going on in written or spoken language compared to body language, way of expressing, how someone mentions a word, in what context and when and the patterns to that in relation to other things... this is stuff i am constantly aware of, and i think it's Normal and rather Usual actualy. But one can still draw that rational line within oneself, but that's an alienating theme and That's what truly pointless in my way of looking at things. And the question isn't wether jackson pollock was just a drunk who threw paint or a genius, those are rational ways of looking. we have to really really Look, at the human being, and in this case only what he's done and his progression through his artistic "career". and you get a Sense for something. And what i think the whole Art-community has understood that music community's (most) hasn't understood, is that it's Pointless to express ANYTHING ELSE than that, because anyone can determine the rational stuff by themselves.

 

And also, if we keep putting up signs as to what things are, rational ideas that its either this or that, people Will be affected by that and postpone their date with the postrational beyond dualistic viewpoints.

 

we have come to a point where there's a static absolute opposits where...

"its ultimately a drunk guy throwing paint on a canvs vs a guy drawing boxes. your eye likes it or it does not. "

And to leave those points of opposits hanging is not progress, the dance isn't finished. if we Don't use this to our advantage and twist and turn this endless rubicks cube....

What else are we going to fucking do? Hang our i like this i like that's out on a forum BASED on the idea of TALKINGA BOUT MUSIC? when most here seems to talk about themselves. not in concrete terms, but from behind their fortress of internet identity, closely guarded by quick answers and easy bottomlines.

 

There's a way of keeping all we've gained in insight as to what we like and dont like. but there's more to explore now, and that's really all i want to point out and try to make people aware of.

This is Problely my most coherent text on this thread am I right?

[Darkarbiter]

Smart stuff

+1

"I CANT HANDLE CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM QQ

I DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK QQ"

is not something I want to see in the production forum

[Verb]

First of all, people, it's "genius". Not "genious." Thanks. Pet peeve of mine.

 

Verb, I hear you. I've also been an art student in the past - art undergrad, architecture grad - and I also write music. We're clearly the sensitive, creative types. If we can't or don't create we go crazy. I hear you.

 

I just want to respond by saying that there's a very good, and very complex, reason why we create. And I don't think it's an act entirely insulated from the outside world. I don't believe you when you say you don't care about other people when you make melodies. I don't believe you because the expression of art is, I believe, a form of communication. Sure, you may not be attempting to communicate with everybody, but you are attempting to make contact with those you consider worth contacting. Maybe it's five people. Maybe a hundred. But they're the ones you essentially want as friends or allies. They're your kind, your spiritual nodes, if I may be so flaketastic. Our art, I really believe (and I admit I could merely speaking for myself), is the attempt to reach people like ourselves. Artists are alone in the world because there are so few of us. We and the philosophers are the tip of the iceberg of humanity (Schopenhauer). And it's that lonliness that causes us to reach out to those who just might understand and appreciate us in the way we prefer to be understood and appreciated, and we're just not going to get that sort of contact with 99.99% of people.

 

So I can't help but feel that your complaints - which I can certainly relate to to an extent - are caused by existential lonliness, from getting heckled by the void. Your only option, seems to me, is to toughen up and get better at creating. Climb to the mountain cave, hang out for as long as it takes, and when you're ready, come back down and share what you've learned with the people.

You understand my motivations but not my concern, i've been motivated about this for several years, but haven't found a way to understand how it could be possible, i've just sortof hung around in a bubble and realized there's no real way to "get out of it". but you're saying that you can't. and i've found out that you really Can. So i have diffrent intentions than just releiving my aloneness or artistic frustration.

 

I also like the idea of art as a form of communication, actualy i embrace the idea that most things is communication. (did you notice my name...)

However, i really mean that i dont care about other people, For Me, as a subjective experiencer, it's about Me and expressing what I like, not taking in what other people like and adjusting to it. there's a big difference. I understand and See what others want, but i've always been one of those people that won't give you what you wished for for christmas, you'll get something better, something that'll make you Look at me and See that I See, and so that we can put rationality, duality and that sortof stuff aside and really Spend Time Together, like human beings as a first, and all the rest coming in on second third.

 

i've always enjoyed that quote from schopenhauer. and i think it problely is loneliness. But im also a bit jungian, so for me, it's My deepest bottomline and view of the world that is who i am, and how i experience things is how they are for me. so adapting to a worldview where I am not really what i feel and experience myself to be is... it's just not an option. So until i've realized whatever there's to realize for me im not going headfirst into a behaviour or attitude that will just twist me and make me feel awkward to the world.

 

 

 

I must be tired 'cause I am not sure what you're trying to say.

 

You think that people shouldn't express their opinions? That if someone doesn't like a particular track or melody then it's wrong for them to say so? If someone likes something then they also shouldn't say anything? You think sharing opinions is wrong because a lot of people can't form their own opinions & blindly follow what others say?

 

I can't say that I agree if this is what you mean! People that can't form their own opinions are never going to. If I write a review that merely says you should listen to it & find out for yourself people with no ability to think for themselves are just not going to bother. Whereas if I write a really opinionated review, people that can form their own opinions are not just going to blindly follow mine.

 

Stifling people's opinions because they might be negative is a bit overly hippyish IMO. If an artist doesn't want their work to be judged then they shouldn't release it to the public. I like seeing how other people's opinions differ from my own & I like sharing my own opinions too, not sure why but I do so why should I stop? Because you don't like it? Nah, you have a different opinion than me about this subject but that doesn't make you right, it doesn't make me right, it's opinion.

 

Sorry if I completely missed the point. It's been a long day

I think you did sortof miss the point. or some lines anyway i really think i said something like "but that doesn't mean it's wrong to say so" at problely every turn. i can hardly express something without expressing how it's not exactly so, and that there's more ways than one at looking at it. And that's sortof what i wanted said, (well one way of looking at it anyway hahaha)

 

That there's diffrent ways of aproaching things and maintaining communication. that it's Not pointless to go beyond rational bottomlines like you dont like this or i dont like that.

I just want more views than this statical one that's been ruling our society and lives for so many years. And i think that the real pointlessness is in JUST being rational.

 

EDIT: And the fact that Psychedelic Trance usualy explores beyond rationality, there's a reason to incorporate deeper meaning however crappy we are at it, and however unreasonable and unrational they seem (using a rational viewpoint) The only thing that makes things irrational is using a rational viewpoint. there are deeper stages of awareness, and states of conciousness, than rational viewpoints. and i'm not unrational to asume that most people on this forum has had these experiences and states. incorporating them and developing and finding oneself outside of the States of conciousness and progressing through Stages is however not very common among drugusers who tend to get obssesed with states of consiousness rather than the absolute self who's always there nomatter what state you're in. (this is foremost the general ideas of Ken Wilber that i've come to enjoy alot lately) but that's generaly speaking.

[technosomy]

pollock

great movie

thats all i have to say

[Basilisk]

Some of it is art. Most of it is just dance music. And I am not much of a drug user. I listen to psychedelic trance because it fires up my imagination naturally. I review and critique psychedelic trance because it develops my way of understanding and interacting with music. I publish my opinions because some people appreciate reading what I have to say. Listening to music is a subjective experience, so I don't think its something you can be "right" about... but there is value in having a guide to this vast labyrinthine world of sound, and it sure helps if you have a finely honed ability to express yourself... in some small way, writing a good review could be seen as an act of second creation.

[Verb]

Some of it is art. Most of it is just dance music. And I am not much of a drug user. I listen to psychedelic trance because it fires up my imagination naturally. I review and critique psychedelic trance because it develops my way of understanding and interacting with music. I publish my opinions because some people appreciate reading what I have to say. Listening to music is a subjective experience, so I don't think its something you can be "right" about... but there is value in having a guide to this vast labyrinthine world of sound, and it sure helps if you have a finely honed ability to express yourself... in some small way, writing a good review could be seen as an act of second creation.

Humbly put!

 

Yup, is all i have to say to that. =)

 

btw, whenever i have the money i'll problely buy a big bunch of vinyl from you hehe

[slyman2.0]

Okay, im not gonna jump right back at you as a simple reaction, i've read it through, and as i sortof mentioned in my texts also there's a certain way to aproach things which is either prerational rational or postrational.

honestly man, i tried to read what you wrote past this statement but it all became gibberish to me. Some people post serious pyschedelic blowhard bullshit on here but please take me at my word that is not what i'm going for here.

 

The idea of "prerational rational" and "postrational" strikes my what i would like to believe to be "rational" mind as an art way of saying "irrational". "irrational" has been beat to death, its not 1939 right now and your in some surrealist movement in spain. It seems to me for some reason art never moved passed that into rationality to say that warhol soup cans or a guy throwing ketchup on toys is just fucking shit.

 

The best education on art i've ever run across is i got in 1999 this documentary on Francis Bacon at the library , he's the star of it, he was still alive when it was made. Track that down, there is nothing more to say about art than what he says in that himself.

 

 

bom

[Verb]

Well im conveying it rationaly, so ofcourse it would seem like im just being rational in disguise.

 

And btw, this isn't an artthing im talking about really.

 

no really.

 

And what im talking about needs to be recognized practically before you can understand what i mean. and that's not an elitist way of putting i know more than you do.

 

But im really suggesting that there is something postrational here. that there's a way to aproach things, thoughts, feelings, and everything, that is Not rational, that's more like transrational. which would be a more hippiesh way of putting it. so instead of just like, arguing with me, you people should maybe look into it. for real.

putyourself at a question that leaves you with no answers, and Dont fucking think. and see how rationaly you can express that experience.

infact compare the one comparission "i sat on the ground and my eyes were closed. it was cool" to a long essay as someone made an effort to point out (which would be the extreme i guess).

and see how you feel, do you understand more from the one or the other?

can you explain that sense of understanding something? is it just stupid brain trying to make sense of the world, or is it something real?

 

This whole thing is basicaly me proposing that Yes it is real. and in that regard we should change or develop our capacity to exchange understandable communication about this.

This truly subjective experience which in this case involves listening and writing about music. we really aren't just apes going about our business. and neither are apes.