Female artists

[buzzman]

 

This I don't understand. My girlfriend, pretty much like my previous girlfriends, is totally devoid of any logic. I am on the other hand far too logical. She's really creative though & can make anything if she puts her mind to it (she's really into animation & she's good at it).

 

I think there are not that many women producing psy because there are not that many women that are really into psy!

Whenever I go to a party it's mostly guys there & the women I do meet are there becasue of their boyfriends. Of course there are girls there who love psy but then again as lauryn illustrated the are women producing also. The percentage is smaller but I think it reflects the ratio of men:women that are really into psy!

 

Personally I don't know any ladies into psy I'd love my bird to be really into it but she merely tolerates it

I was saying the same thing about logic!

 

But good take on it Shure there is lots of girls at a psy party, but do they keep listening troughout the week... search the market for new music or show any interest in it? You have a good point there

[Tatsu]

Tatsu, you think that because that women couldn't vote 50 years ago, this has something to do with this? Caus MANY artists arent a day older than 30, so this shouldn't really have affected them shouldn't it`?

 

And isn't that sexist to say? That is the same thing as saying all men is feeling superior to women, and that all men is depressing womens tatents? We could go on and on with this i see

I've allready explained in my very first post why I think it's related in a way:

 

One part of the answer is pretty simple: less than 100 years ago women got a different education and were also not allowed to work in the same jobs than men (if they were allowed out of the kitchen at all if you know what I mean ). Because of that it's imho not exactly a surprise that it takes some time for the women to catch up. If you check out the statistics from today and from 20 years ago you can see (at least here in Switzerland) that the % of women gets higher, so give it some time and hopefully there will be better figures to show in some years (imho of course).

Again, do you (Ormion I'm talking to here but if anybody else can help me with it I gladly accept) have any official reports showing that men are more creative than women? I'm googling about the subject and being at work while doing it is not exactly making it easy. Still, so far the gender studies I've found are not backing you up at all... Here is one, I will have to read it at home but how I understand it so far there are differences in the way of being creative but so far nothing is said about one gender being extremely more creative than the other:

 

http://www-usr.rider.edu/~baer/Baer-APA-05.doc

 

I've also downloaded a pdf about the subject called "Self-Repordred Differences in Creativity by Ethnicity and Gender" by James C. Kaufman. I also have to read this when I'm off work but from what I understand after scaning it, it also says that there isn't a gender that is more creative than another. I don't have the link anymore but I can upload it if you want.

 

It might very well be that I just can't find the studies you are talking about since google is no friend of mint but so far I have to say your opinion is a personal opinion and quite far from being an actual fact proved by science.

[buzzman]

I know you explained it Tatsu, and now im asking you a new question:

 

Do you seriously believe that because of something happened many years ago, it has something to do with women who haven't even lived in that age?? I don't understand that

 

And ormion don't meen women have no creative talent at all, just not when it comes to music(that is hes oppinion) and then you don't have to find anything that profes he's wrong... Caus he allready admitted that womens creativity is superior to mens in some ways... Just not music

 

Stop twisting it more

[Ban jhankri]

damn i'm getting bored with all these male feminazi heroes...the guy just said his opinion about something he observed...he doesn't mean that women have NO imagination at all he said that maybe men have more (as men are better in sports than women, am i sexist for saying that?)...he didn't want to offend, it is clear that he is wondering himself and he wants just to have a mature discussion on the subject...his answer can give an explanation in his question...an other good answer is what abasio said "women producers are less in psy because there are less women interested in psy in general"...an other answer is what tatsu said...so instead of attacking him can we have a mature discussion on the subject ?

 

for example i've heard many women saying that the best cooks in the world are men...(i don't know if tatsu agrees with this view but i know many who agree)...so the question is why? is it because women are less interested in cooking? or because they were repressed and they were not allowed to cook until recently? or in fashion for example....there are many big male names too...

 

and for those who are saying "hey ormion you have no proof for what you are saying so you are ignorant"...well...do you have any proof that what he is saying is NOT true? if you have i'm sure he will be more than happy to accept it...(but we are talking about a real proof...)

[Tatsu]

I was saying the same thing about logic!

 

But good take on it Shure there is lots of girls at a psy party, but do they keep listening troughout the week... search the market for new music or show any interest in it? You have a good point there

I agree with both of you here. I know far less women who are as obsessed with electonical music (or music) in general in the same way than guys are. Also if you check parties you see (at least here) more men than women. In psy the ratio is not as extreme as in other forms of electronical music from what I can tell. Still, I can't give an explanation for that. Maybe it's in the different way of thinking and with being interested in more diverted kind of things instead in just one big thing? I really can't tell, especially because I'm rather obsessed with collecting cds and vinyls myself...

[Anoebis]

I didn't read the whole discussion, but I just wanted to add it is proven that the reason why there are less females in music is because of:

 

- They have less obsession in things... So also in music... The reason why men are obsessive is because they need to prove themselve in 1 thing to be able to catch a woman (well, thats the biological history)... So with music Only very few girls are very obsessive with music, and THAT is the reason why the psyforums are 90% male Girls often like talking, partying,... more then music as well on those forums We, men, seem to listen to music as like it was a godly creation (and it often is )

[buzzman]

I agree with both of you here. I know far less women who are as obsessed with electonical music (or music) in general in the same way than guys are. Also if you check parties you see (at least here) more men than women. In psy the ratio is not as extreme as in other forms of electronical music from what I can tell. Still, I can't give an explanation for that. Maybe it's in the different way of thinking and with being interested in more diverted kind of things instead in just one big thing? I really can't tell, especially because I'm rather obsessed with collecting cds and vinyls myself...

Your one in a million

[buzzman]

I didn't read the whole discussion, but I just wanted to add it is proven that the reason why there are less females in music is because of:

 

- They have less obsession in things... So also in music... The reason why men are obsessive is because they need to prove themselve in 1 thing to be able to catch a woman (well, thats the biological history)... So with music Only very few girls are very obsessive with music, and THAT is the reason why the psyforums are 90% male Girls often like talking, partying,... more then music as well on those forums We, men, seem to listen to music as like it was a godly creation (and it often is )

Makes perfect sense

[Anoebis]

Makes perfect sense

actually it's science

 

And i'd love to have more girls in the scene, but well... We never ever had 1 promo on Suntrip from a girl

 

Also, the few Belgian djs that were female djs mostly got booked often because they were female, not even because they could play that well... (and now they are mostly history because of that)

[Tatsu]

I know you explained it Tatsu, and now im asking you a new question:

 

Do you seriously believe that because of something happened many years ago, it has something to do with women who haven't even lived in that age?? I don't understand that

 

And ormion don't meen women have no creative talent at all, just not when it comes to music(that is hes oppinion) and then you don't have to find anything that profes he's wrong... Caus he allready admitted that womens creativity is superior to mens in some ways... Just not music

 

Stop twisting it more

Twisting his words?! WTF man, that's what he has said, no need to twist it...

 

OMG! Two! That's a huge number man!

The problem is that apparently you can't read.

I never said that women are stupid or a lower kind, I said that most women don't have imagination. Simple as that.

They prefer logic more. Modern science prove it as well.

 

You want song writers, painters, architects, poets, sculptors, writers? Men are most. Even today that women have they same opportunities as men (in modern countries have most actually) men's work in arts are more significant.

 

If you can't see it, it's not my problem.

 

And please cut the crap about ''men don't let women'' and blah, blah. We live in 2007!

Sorry but if you generalise a whole gender you don't have to be surprised if people ask to back it up. Especially if you also say that there are studies that proof what you are saying:

 

Okay that's your opinion. I have mine. Is that a bad thing? Does this gives to anyone the right to call me pig?

After all you are a woman and I can understand why you got offended.

I believe that gender has something to do with creativity. Scientific researches prove it, but I don't care about them really. I say what I see.

Like I said women are better in logic. Also it seems that women have better memory than men. I'm a man and I don't get upset about that. I believe it.

Just like I believe that the black race is superior to any kind of sports. And don't say to me that black people had or have the oppportunities to prove that.

So, I'm a racist against white ppl?

 

No one have answered to my question though.

Why dnon't we have more psy girls?

Do you think that labels or listeners sabotage them?

damn i'm getting bored with all these male feminazi heroes...the guy just said his opinion about something he observed...he doesn't mean that women have NO imagination at all he said that maybe men have more (as men are better in sports than women, am i sexist for saying that?)...he didn't want to offend, it is clear that he is wondering himself and he wants just to have a mature discussion on the subject...his answer can give an explanation in his question...an other good answer is what abasio said "women producers are less in psy because there are less women interested in psy in general"...an other answer is what tatsu said...so instead of attacking him can we have a mature discussion on the subject ?

 

for example i've heard many women saying that the best cooks in the world are men...(i don't know if tatsu agrees with this view but i know many who agree)...so the question is why? is it because women are less interested in cooking? or because they were repressed and they were not allowed to cook until recently? or in fashion for example....there are many big male names too...

 

and for those who are saying "hey ormion you have no proof for what you are saying so you are ignorant"...well...do you have any proof that what he is saying is NOT true? if you have i'm sure he will be more than happy to accept it...(but we are talking about a real proof...)

So if I'm asking about the researches Ormion mentiones I'm a feminazi hero? Way to go... You ask me about a proof I have, read my older post and the link I've posted to the studies I've found on the internet. Sure it's only on the internet but at least I offer something instead of generalising things.

 

And to get back to your question Buzzmann: read the link I've posted. They talk about a similar subject (at least from what I can tell now, I will have to read it when I'm back home) when it comes to the different evolution of males and females. So yes, I do think that it has an effect on the females of today that they don't have the same history as males when it comes to education in the past and what not. And when I say this I'm talking about the general effect it has, not about the effect for the psyscene, we are quite far a way from that.

[fluffymushi]

boys like this, girls like that. nothing wrong with a bit of sexism now & then.

[buzzman]

Tatsu, your looking at ONE thing Ormion misinterpredet, insted of looking at the overall picture of what we've talked about... Ormion loves women, you can clearly see that in all the other things he wrote... And he admitted that women are far more creative in other stuff So stop it here please

[Tatsu]

Tatsu, your looking at ONE thing Ormion misinterpredet, insted of looking at the overall picture of what we've talked about... Ormion loves women, you can clearly see that in all the other things he wrote... And he admitted that women are far more creative in other stuff So stop it here please

What exactly did Ormion missinterpret, could you please explain that?

[Gnome]

Instead of these 5 pages of pointless discussion between realists and pseudo-hippies,you could just google it and find that study about it.

It actually proves that women are not that good with tasks like music architecture and science (with a lot of noticeable exceptions of course,no theory about the brain is even close to perfect) and also why they arent.Its all about the brain and how it works.

[buzzman]

What exactly did Ormion missinterpret, could you please explain that?

Hahaha, typical women

 

Please just stop, Ormion likes women, and it was just a personal statement he had of why women don't make psy... He didn't mean it as a degrading of women in any way, he just said he new it for a fact that womens creativity level in serten things is lover than males... I think Anoebis explained it quite perfectly

[buzzman]

Instead of these 5 pages of pointless discussion between realists and pseudo-hippies,you could just google it and find that study about it.

It actually proves that women are not that good with tasks like music architecture and science (with a lot of noticeable exceptions of course,no theory about the brain is even close to perfect) and also why they arent.Its all about the brain and how it works.

:clapping:

[Tatsu]

Hahaha, typical women

 

Please just stop, Ormion likes women, and it was just a personal statement he had of why women don't make psy... He didn't mean it as a degrading of women in any way, he just said he new it for a fact that womens creativity level in serten things is lover than males... I think Anoebis explained it quite perfectly

Because he likes women he can state that "most women don't have imagination"? and make this a fact? Sorry but that's a rather funny point of view. I like women so I can say about them whatever I want and this makes it true? WTF I'm out of here, have fun guys.

[buzzman]

Because he likes women he can state that "most women don't have imagination"? and make this a fact? Sorry but that's a rather funny point of view. I like women so I can say about them whatever I want and this makes it true? WTF I'm out of here, have fun guys.

It's difficult to disguss in perfect manners and way of speach when english isn't your first language... Don't take it so serious, he allready said afterwards that women have imagination and creativity in other levels... other things, other ways

 

And if you believe that women have no imagination at all because he says so, if you believe he's talking about imagination about everything, then you arent thinking very clearly.. .sorry to say it

[buzzman]

And to get back to your question Buzzmann: read the link I've posted. They talk about a similar subject (at least from what I can tell now, I will have to read it when I'm back home) when it comes to the different evolution of males and females. So yes, I do think that it has an effect on the females of today that they don't have the same history as males when it comes to education in the past and what not. And when I say this I'm talking about the general effect it has, not about the effect for the psyscene, we are quite far a way from that.

Sounds exiting... please share with me when you get home and have read it

 

I would like to know more about this... In some way i can see what you mean.. That because of the continuoes degrading of women in the past, womens brains haven't evolved in the same degree as males or what? Maby i misunderstood

[Tatsu]

Sounds exiting... please share with me when you get home and have read it

 

I would like to know more about this... In some way i can see what you mean.. That because of the continuoes degrading of women in the past, womens brains haven't evolved in the same degree as males or what? Maby i misunderstood

I can give you a short summary about the theory I'm talking about if you like. How I understand the subject in general (and related to art the study implies the same somehow but as I've said, I really have to read it before I make a final judgement) and other stuff I've heard it it's not that women's brains are degraded because of their social position in the the past. But for example men are used to doing stuff like politics and science since, I don't know exactly but let's say, the 15th or the 17th century (probably even way longer) for example while women are not. Because of that it is imho not a surprise that there are less women that are interested or involved in science and politics right now. It seems (to me at last) that women have to get used to the rather new possibilities they have. Another thing is that in northern europe at last the society was dominated by males during the last few hundreds of years, I mean if you read history books all the conquerors, the military and most of other important figures were males (with some exceptions of course) and besides that there were very clear roles for each gender, some parts of that role still exists, for the better or worse of both genders (like men don't cry and what not). To me it makes actually sense that it takes some times for the women to get used to the new subjects or possibilites since men had way more time to find a way that works for them and pass that knowledge from generation to generation. What backs up that theory for me is that if you see statistics you see more women the longer the more in non-stereotypic roles. And also men in non-stereotype roles like and this is a good thing imho.

 

We're quite far off from the original topic right now but maybe I was finaly able to explain a little bit better what I've meant in my first post anyway...

[Anoebis]

I can give you a short summary about the theory I'm talking about if you like. How I understand the subject in general (and related to art the study implies the same somehow but as I've said, I really have to read it before I make a final judgement) and other stuff I've heard it it's not that women's brains are degraded because of their social position in the the past. But for example men are used to doing stuff like politics and science since, I don't know exactly but let's say, the 15th or the 17th century (probably even way longer) for example while women are not. Because of that it is imho not a surprise that there are less women that are interested or involved in science and politics right now. It seems (to me at last) that women have to get used to the rather new possibilities they have. Another thing is that in northern europe at last the society was dominated by males during the last few hundreds of years, I mean if you read history books all the conquerors, the military and most of other important figures were males (with some exceptions of course) and besides that there were very clear roles for each gender, some parts of that role still exists, for the better or worse of both genders (like men don't cry and what not). To me it makes actually sense that it takes some times for the women to get used to the new subjects or possibilites since men had way more time to find a way that works for them and pass that knowledge from generation to generation. What backs up that theory for me is that if you see statistics you see more women the longer the more in non-stereotypic roles. And also men in non-stereotype roles like and this is a good thing imho.

 

We're quite far off from the original topic right now but maybe I was finaly able to explain a little bit better what I've meant in my first post anyway...

interesting... But the reason WHY that is, is simply what I explained earlier on... Men have to conquer women... So because of that men have to proove themselves (NOT the other way around!!!!!), and because of that we (men) are better in obsessive things... Now, because of being obsessive we managed to improve alot of things like architecture, maths,...

 

Another reason why men are better in maths/logistics is because for hundred and thousands of years men had to hunt for food, and find their way back, which made them think more logical and because of that they also were brain trained to find solutions to these dangerous hunts...

 

Because women got kids, and we, humans, have the problem of having kids that still need 10 years of work before they are adult, they were always linked with eachother (the womaninstinct) => And that is the reason why so many women had to stay home...

 

Ok... I had alot of lessons about this

[Tatsu]

interesting... But the reason WHY that is, is simply what I explained earlier on... Men have to conquer women... So because of that men have to proove themselves (NOT the other way around!!!!!), and because of that we (men) are better in obsessive things... Now, because of being obsessive we managed to improve alot of things like architecture, maths,...

 

Another reason why men are better in maths/logistics is because for hundred and thousands of years men had to hunt for food, and find their way back, which made them think more logical and because of that they also were brain trained to find solutions to these dangerous hunts...

 

Because women got kids, and we, humans, have the problem of having kids that still need 10 years of work before they are adult, they were always linked with eachother (the womaninstinct) => And that is the reason why so many women had to stay home...

 

Ok... I had alot of lessons about this

Yes exactly. I never had lessons about it, just read and heard some stuff. From what I can tell things like those given roles and the outcome of that roles are slowly shifting, and I think this is very interesting.

[NEMO.BOFH]

The guy who killed his ex-wife last week, he also loved his woman very much. he even told her on TV that he wanted her back 2 weeks before. she said no, and then he killed her. (And this is not an attack on you Ormion, its FACT.) Loving women and treating them as EQUAL are not the same things.

 

This is not about if you like women or not. Yes, there is less women in the scene. Yes there is less women in the scene because maybe psy trance does not attract women that much as electro, house or even other forms of electronica. But to GENERALIZE, that they should be something less that us, and that is why there are less women in our scene, is just simply wrong.

 

No buzzocks, its not Ormions fault that there are less women on this board, its the general output of this board (to which I am also contributing of course) that scares them away, I THINK. Look at TC and MC, even they are posting less. Its pretty sad. Lauryn does not post that much either (and she is a dj, and from what I gather makes music as well?). Or it is just that we have many female lurkers, and they laugh their asses off at us, and are too damn smart not to join, to get sucked into endless discussions of nonsense.

 

And to say that what was 100 years ago, does not happen anymore cause most of us are around our 30s just does not add up. Maybe my child will be free of a womanizing world, but not us. We still have grandparents and parents that think in very weird ways.

 

I know that I was pretty much shocked when I came down to Spain for instance. There are a lot of woman beaters here. I saw one guy beating up a woman on the street the other day, luckily the police came. Another woman got beaten in the South of Spain 4 days ago, beyond recognition.

 

Example from real life. My grandmother is extremely creative. She was a housewife her entire life, and was TOLD what to vote by her husband until they came past 60 or something. He never beat her, and he was a super kind person to her. He loved her very much, but she HAD to stay in the house and cook. She playes the guitar very very good, but never got to play when he was around... She wanted to paint but got to hear "Bah, you dont have time for that, you are too busy with the house!!" But he LOVED her with his whole heart. I loved that guy, he was my hero. He still is one of the persons I love the most, but I sincerely think he robbed my grandmothers life. Heck, he never took her out either, always going alone on the piss. And this is happening all over the world still, even if you think it does not.

 

Now is the time for us to rectify that problem which exists, and yeah it is getting better, but it is far from good. How many of your grandparents had a woman that worked? BE HONEST! Cristina my girlfriend, her Mother never worked. (She is Spanish). ALL the moms of my Greek friends (Sorry Ormion) dont work, they are housewifes. Sad. Cause I bet you a million, that they all WOULD love to have a job, earn their own money, be creative, etc etc.

 

The majority of Hairdressers I KNOW are men, by ze way!

 

Anyways, this is my last post for a while here. Not because of the discussion, but I need to get some things sorted in my life, my fucking girlfriend has put me on kitchen duty, the BITCH! (just kidding of course)

[Anoebis]

And to say that what was 100 years ago, does not happen anymore cause most of us are around our 30s just does not add up. Maybe my child will be free of a womanizing world, but not us. We still have grandparents and parents that think in very weird ways.

 

I know that I was pretty much shocked when I came down to Spain for instance. There are a lot of woman beaters here. I saw one guy beating up a woman on the street the other day, luckily the police came. Another woman got beaten in the South of Spain 4 days ago, beyond recognition.

 

Example from real life. My grandmother is extremely creative. She was a housewife her entire life, and was TOLD what to vote by her husband until they came past 60 or something. He never beat her, and he was a super kind person to her. He loved her very much, but she HAD to stay in the house and cook. She playes the guitar very very good, but never got to play when he was around... She wanted to paint but got to hear "Bah, you dont have time for that, you are too busy with the house!!" But he LOVED her with his whole heart. I loved that guy, he was my hero. He still is one of the persons I love the most, but I sincerely think he robbed my grandmothers life. Heck, he never took her out either, always going alone on the piss. And this is happening all over the world still, even if you think it does not.

 

Now is the time for us to rectify that problem which exists, and yeah it is getting better, but it is far from good. How many of your grandparents had a woman that worked? BE HONEST! Cristina my girlfriend, her Mother never worked. (She is Spanish). ALL the moms of my Greek friends (Sorry Ormion) dont work, they are housewifes. Sad. Cause I bet you a million, that they all WOULD love to have a job, earn their own money, be creative, etc etc.

 

The majority of Hairdressers I KNOW are men, by ze way!

 

Anyways, this is my last post for a while here. Not because of the discussion, but I need to get some things sorted in my life, my fucking girlfriend has put me on kitchen duty, the BITCH! (just kidding of course)

But all that is NOT the reason why there are less women in the scene today right!?

I mean, this explaines why there are less creative people of 30-40+, but how many girls of 25 stay in the house to cook etc? Well, I know NONE... All the people I know of my age and that are able to work, work... Girls and boys... And still they are not as active in making psy trance!? So, that's not the reason for sure...

 

As a teacher I am confronted with youth in general, my school is partly a fassion school, and girls there are very creative, but not one (of the 150 I teach) is interested in making music... (I talk alot about that in my classes), while the 2 boys that are doing fashion as well are busy with it... 1 is a hip hop producer, the other drummer... Coincedance? Naaah...

[buzzman]

I can give you a short summary about the theory I'm talking about if you like. How I understand the subject in general (and related to art the study implies the same somehow but as I've said, I really have to read it before I make a final judgement) and other stuff I've heard it it's not that women's brains are degraded because of their social position in the the past. But for example men are used to doing stuff like politics and science since, I don't know exactly but let's say, the 15th or the 17th century (probably even way longer) for example while women are not. Because of that it is imho not a surprise that there are less women that are interested or involved in science and politics right now. It seems (to me at last) that women have to get used to the rather new possibilities they have. Another thing is that in northern europe at last the society was dominated by males during the last few hundreds of years, I mean if you read history books all the conquerors, the military and most of other important figures were males (with some exceptions of course) and besides that there were very clear roles for each gender, some parts of that role still exists, for the better or worse of both genders (like men don't cry and what not). To me it makes actually sense that it takes some times for the women to get used to the new subjects or possibilites since men had way more time to find a way that works for them and pass that knowledge from generation to generation. What backs up that theory for me is that if you see statistics you see more women the longer the more in non-stereotypic roles. And also men in non-stereotype roles like and this is a good thing imho.

 

We're quite far off from the original topic right now but maybe I was finaly able to explain a little bit better what I've meant in my first post anyway...

I think i get it now... interesting view on it you got there... I like it Maybe a big part of it is how women is being raised, where the old "world order" still shines through in the homes around the world?

 

Makes me think of that women from saudi arabia whos getting wipped 200 times for getting raped... Shockin...

 

Well, that is an extreme example, but it shows that the surpression of women is still a part of the world.. Maybe in much smaller degree, but it still hangs around, even in "high society" contries...

 

Yeah, far from topic, your right

 

But