mars Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I'm opening this thread following that one : http://www.psynews.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=50210 Jon Cocco, Sideeffect, Ormion and I agreed this album should be reelased on cd. I thought this was a nice matter of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 That's agreat album. Although some tracks don't stike in the mind, it's great old school-ish Goa. To Infinity is indeed a fantastic track with great melodies. Pure uplifting experience. Painful Stories is awesome too. It has a melancholc feeling in it, especially when the key changes. Overall 9/10 +1 New Goa must be released in cd format. It's the only way to recognition IMO. it's for free so I guess psyshop or saiko can't charge distribution money cause everyone can download the full wave... + who pays the cost of the album cover printing and etc... going a bit off topic here but seemed interesting... still love it , marvellous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 it's for free so I guess psyshop or saiko can't charge distribution money cause everyone can download the full wave... + who pays the cost of the album cover printing and etc... going a bit off topic here but seemed interesting... still love it , marvellous I actually meant that albums like that must be released in cd format by their labels. They could print less copies if they're afraid for low sales. I'm not talking specifically about this one, since I know the story of Metapsychic, but to have a new goa rebirth we need more cd releases IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I actually meant that albums like that must be released in cd format by their labels. They could print less copies if they're afraid for low sales. I'm not talking specifically about this one, since I know the story of Metapsychic, but to have a new goa rebirth we need more cd releases IMO. +1 indeed was just considering some variables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 very nice and interesting discussion indeed and here's it's not off topic still have the same question, who will pay for the distribution and pressing ? the mastering sounds a bit cheap imo wondering why ? for the money or just not well done... no harm in asking , I had never heard of them, are those the same guys of the 1997 fluollizard album If I remember correctly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I'm opening this thread following that one : http://www.psynews.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=50210 Jon Cocco, Sideeffect, Ormion and I agreed this album should be reelased on cd. I thought this was a nice matter of discussion. Not just Mindsphere, but every new Goa release. Check out the overall quality of Golden Vibes 2 compilation. These albums/comps must be released in cd format. I don't run a label, nor have any idea about financial stuff, but I believe that if the labels manage to find the perfect amount of how many copies must be printed they can make profit. I understand that releasing a cd in our downloading era might be risky, but I believe that is easier for small labels, since they don't have to pay a lot of money to famous artists. I have spoken with guys that run very small labels, releasing 500 limited copies cds and they said that they still make a good profit. So, I don't know if it's so risky at the end. About Mindsphere I know the story of Metapsychic, so it would be awesome if another label could release it. Imagine it with a great mastering and a shiny digipack. I know that many young Psyheads are interesting in Goa. You can see that even in the review section of Isratrance. Filteria's second album gained a hell of alot attention in a site known for its killargh comments in random crap. Like I said before, the only way to have a new Goa trance rebirth, is to have cd releases. Downloadng and sharing stuff is an extremely easy way to make the music known, but it won't last. It's gonna be a fad, a trend, before some other genre takes the lead. But having a cd release it changes everything. It's official! Ppl will look for it in the future. I'm afraid that most of the downloading music (of every kind) will be forget in the listeners' hard drives after some years. So yes, I'm with Mars here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Not just Mindsphere, but every new Goa release. Check out the overall quality of Golden Vibes 2 compilation. These albums/comps must be released in cd format. I don't run a label, nor have any idea about financial stuff, but I believe that if the labels manage to find the perfect amount of how many copies must be printed they can make profit. I understand that releasing a cd in our downloading era might be risky, but I believe that is easier for small labels, since they don't have to pay a lot of money to famous artists. I have spoken with guys that run very small labels, releasing 500 limited copies cds and they said that they still make a good profit. So, I don't know if it's so risky at the end. About Mindsphere I know the story of Metapsychic, so it would be awesome if another label could release it. Imagine it with a great mastering and a shiny digipack. I know that many young Psyheads are interesting in Goa. You can see that even in the review section of Isratrance. Filteria's second album gained a hell of alot attention in a site known for its killargh comments in random crap. Like I said before, the only way to have a new Goa trance rebirth, is to have cd releases. Downloadng and sharing stuff is an extremely easy way to make the music known, but it won't last. It's gonna be a fad, a trend, before some other genre takes the lead. But having a cd release it changes everything. It's official! Ppl will look for it in the future. I'm afraid that most of the downloading music (of every kind) will be forget in the listeners' hard drives after some years. So yes, I'm with Mars here. +1 but where did it go wrong (wrong with " " ), the artist didn't want money, labels weren't interested ? touching in the dark here imho still the smallest thing online psyshops could do is announce the cd and instead of a pre listen you can download it + the cover in good quality for printing, but then again it'll cost them hosting and etc... this is totally not my territory , I have zero knowledge about this process but would like to know some more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 The problem: there are risks involved in manufacturing physical products. Usually 500 is the bare minimum for CDs--and at that price they aren't all that cheap. Once they're printed you need to actively go out there and sell them, ship packages, handle orders, and do a whole bunch of time-consuming stuff. These days many commercial CDs are not selling more that 200 or 300 copies. The current distribution model simply isn't all that profitable. Ah, but some of you may know that I've been working on this problem for some time now soon I will be launching a new system designed to address these issues... and at that time I will come back to this thread to shed a little light on this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mars Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 We can take this topic on a theoretical point of view (although I would really like to have this album properly mastered on a real cd in my collection). Let me stress that I'm wirting this as a Psynews member with some knowledge of releasing constraints, NOT as the Suntrip CEO. Since everyone can download this release now, some pressing would only interest a few people, or those looking for some added value (remastering is an obvious one). 1) Since Metapsy looks dead now, the first matter would be to know who owns the tracks' rights and whether the owner would agree on releasing this. This is surely a delicate matter. 2) Distribution is imo impossible to organize because A ) everyone can download B ) because there is no more label to interface with the distributor. So, assuming 1) is fulfilled, an unofficial release - juridically only as a promo, without any cat number - could be sold on a non-profit business model and on a small amount of copies. Psynews.org for example can give it a bare juridic legality, just like Metapsychic could, these are the same kind of structures. But this is not important. "Promos" are legally tied to almost nothing. 3) there is artwork (at least partial). Cost: 0. 4) Mastering would cost between 350 and 400 euros. 5) Pressing depends entirely on the number of copies pressed and the degree of finishing (shrinnk wrap or not, number of colors on the cover/cd, clear jewel case or not or digipak, etc. The cheapest would be jewel case, and let's say with shrink wrap cause there are some maniacs: 1000 copies cost 925 euros / 500 copies 870 euros / 200 copies 670 euros / 100 copies 600 euros. Yeah fixed costs are huge that's why pressing small quantities still have a high price. 6) Now Psynews is the place for this, ensure 1) is fulfilled and everyone agrees, test how many people ould buy with a poll, extrapolate, open a specific paypal account for that for example, let people order and pay, then go to the press and send each order Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mars Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 I must add some little things : 7) you can add 150 euros for shiping the pressed cds from the factory to your place 8) I didn't count any artist fee, neither advertising costs (woudln't be convenient on an out of hand model without a catnr, etc)........... 9) If you're distributed you'll get 6.2 euros / cd sold and if you're selling out of hand or just yourself you can get an appealing price at 10 euros. So if you do the accountancy over 500 cds, the global cost is 1400 euros and you should sell 140 out of hand (that is, not officially distributed, and i believe is the good economic model on such low volumes and regarding issues in 1) and 2)) to reach a break even situation. Low you'd say ? Yeah all the more as Psynews has a lot of Goa fans, and there are still places where one can sell such cds (Belgium, Sweden, Canada, Israel...). But there are risks too...oh yeahhh (people saying they'll buy and eventually don't, bad online advertisement, unexpected costs, juridic issues...) Now if some of you guys wanna start such an enterprise, as a Goa fan, I'm 100% enthusiastic, and i'd be ready to collaborate a lot from my Suntrip knowledge (mastering/pressing contacts) without involving the company itself, and provide with everything needed (google docs, calendar, emails infrastructure and mailing lists on the Psynews backend). But don't ask me to help more if you see what I mean. I think Basilisk also has a mine of infos to help in such enterprise. Who would be entrepreneur enough to do the hardest step, step 1) ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike A Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I doubt that there is a point in releasing this album on a pressed cd. First of all, like people have said here already, it's free for download as wav. This puts it low on my "to-buy" list, even if I like the music. I already have it, better buy something I don't have. I'm sure there are people who will buy this just to support the artist, label and cause but those people are a minority. You still have to sell it to cover the expenses, else you're throwing your money away. Second, IMHO the production quality is not enough for a commercial release. The mastering is not good enough and it will be hard to sell it as a new label. If an established label is doing it (and the only label I see doing it is Suntrip), they are risking losing a lot of money. IMO better wait for the 2nd Mindsphere album. Just leave this one as it is. Do you want to support the artist? Book him for a gig. As an artist, I can tell you this will be greatly appreciated. As to the general idea of releasing goa, the amount of releases will increase in 2008. There is my own label (Cronomi) with the first release coming soon, by spring I hope and I think I'll be able to put out another release in 2008. Maybe even a third one, depends on my time and financial resources. First two are compilations, the third is an album - no idea by whom yet. There is also Phototropic which seems like it's going to release some goa (Pandemonium album etc). Shivlink will have 2 albums from Astrancer and Liqiud Flow as well. There is a future to goa :posford: ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 ...what Mike says. I as a consumer would think four times about buying an album that is avaliable for free via download. And I won't do it even at the first time ... okay, there are exceptions (the S-Range release, which is in a way in that same situation, hehe), but not many. You won't get big support off the consumer side except selling maybe 50 copies to poeple who really are behind it, maaaybe 100 if you are good. I would not count on more, I'd rather count less. Does this justify costs and effort? Nah, forget it IMO. There is no real point in releasing stuff available for free, you won't even play in the pressing costs from the factory. The customer wants and needs something more, something that he/she doesn't have yet and what he/she can not just download and burn. Don't say cover artwork or mastering now, I'm talking about more. To really get the money back that you throw out to press the discs (and nothing more, don't ever expect real profit!) you have to give them new and previously unreleased tracks, because only that will persuade them to buy it. Although not the whole disc needs to be new tracks, but about half of it ... everything below wouldn't be good. Unreleased tracks, special fresh remastered hand numbered limited digipak edition with extra amount of artwork, that would be it! This way you'll attract both people who have the release already in digital form and people that have never heard of it likewise ... and when you're lucky and the music is good you'll eventually really get rid of the huge amount of pressings you made and step out of it without red digits. That's the road to success in my eyes. And I have no clue of that release, it's only what I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mars Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 I don't agree and I would like to mitigate some things. I said : Since everyone can download this release now, some pressing would only interest a few people, or those looking for some added value (remastering is an obvious one). And later: ... i'd be ready to collaborate a lot from my Suntrip knowledge (mastering/pressing contacts) without involving the company itself... When I mentioned added value, it meant a new mastering, cause this release definitely needs it. Also Suntrip would never be involved in such an enterprise. On the contrary, I mentioned a very simplified release process cutting all possible costs to reach a very low break even situation (usually a break even on a 1000 copies print Goa album is > 500 copies sold, here 140). For your information, we manage to sell > 100 copies of every Suntrip release, just out of hand, just in Belgium! It's not so hard to sell 140 copies and reach a break even when you know where Goa addict people are. Not mentioning our releases are always out on p2p's the same day they are released in the stores (even earlier sometimes). Based on that I think a 500 copies pressing wouldn't be a loss of money and I would recommend a serious poll here on psynews or on psychedelic.be to know what to expect. Anyway this is all theoretical and would need people of good will to make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen dream Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 i made a smashing master version of filteria - navigate 2007 live mix and i'm playing it in germany in three weeks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malevol3nt Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I don't think metapsy have any 'rights' to this album as it was released free over the internet? It's not like Ali 'mindsphere' actually signed a paper contract did he? I wouldn't know, just asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindsphere Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Hi everyone,first of all thank u again for good suggestions for my album inner cyclone where i thank people on other topics. Please change topic name from: The "Minsphere should be pressed on cd" ----- not Minsphere ( Mindsphere ) and a short answer from me to everyone about why inner cyclone released free !! God gives me a gift to understand and making this music and this is a gift from me to all Goa trance music scene. Thats all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I don't have a clue about business stuff but all I can say is that I personaly would buy an album I allready own from (legal) downloading if I really like it. Even more when I know that it has been released by some "freaks" who really love that music. I've also payed 15 Euros far a demo CDs from Electrypnose. Lots of MP3, no cover art and for sure he didn't push me to, he justed added his card and asked for a donation. I love my music and I don't mind paying for it. And about Mindsphere: I'm downloading the album atm, this thread made me very curious about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mars Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 Hi everyone,first of all thank u again for good suggestions for my album inner cyclone where i thank people on other topics. Please change topic name from: The "Minsphere should be pressed on cd" ----- not Minsphere ( Mindsphere ) and a short answer from me to everyone about why inner cyclone released free !! God gives me a gift to understand and making this music and this is a gift from me to all Goa trance music scene. Thats all Ah here's the main person to this affair. Hello, hello. Title: done, sorry Since it all started with this question "why was it not released on cd", thanks for replying. As for the rest, it was not about making money, really, but rather thinking about having "the real thing" with a "real mastering" that deserves its place in a Goa collection. The problem is I'm not sure it would be convenient, or if you would approve to a limited "promo" pressing with professional mastering, just for the pleasure of a few people to have it in their hands. I tried to show it wouldn't be such a risk to do it, uner certain conditions, and was wondering if many people from here would like the idea or would like to get involved. It doesn't seem so until now and it's a shame because the cd deserves it ! I added a poll btw...really curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rino Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 my answers: 1) YES - objectively speaking, Mindsphere's album is good enough to merit a proper CD release. It fairs well enough in comparison to other modern goa trance outputs, and thus I see no particular reason for it not to eventually recieve a physical release. 2) NO - since I never considered myself an expert in sound engeneering/post production sound/production vaults/whatever, mastering and sound quality was never an issue I payed attention to. Music is NOT an art of perfecting a billion technical flaws and details. Music is not physics and methamatics: the album sounds as it sounds. Period. No point in further discussions IMHO. 3) NO- Now that I have it in WAV format, now that I know what it sounds like, I would not buy a proper CD release. WAVs do it more than fine for me, plus there are numerous other releases I'd buy before this one. One other thing is that I, with all fairness and honesty + all due respect to the artist, don't find this album a masterpiece some hail it as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Cocco Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Yes this is strong enough to be released on CD, re-mastered, etc. It isn't a masterpiece in my opinion (it's proof that the second album has potential to be) but it sure is great. With improved mastering, I don't know what could be done because I haven't heard an improved, re-mastered version. But generally speaking, what Suntrip did to D5's debut (2007 re-release) was certainly noticeable in a positive way. And I love that album. I'm not familiar with the mastering aspect of music. I used to sound engineer as a passion. I cut an experimental album back in the early 21st century. Through this I gained the general process. - Studio recording, cutting an album. (Editing, mixing) - Copyrighting material. (Through the Library of Congress, here in the United States) - Cover: (Inside flip, / tracklist, marketing catch i.e: the cover look, etc. this stuff is the last part, and easy to do) The next provess we never developed was: - Having various quantities of the album pressed and copied as Mars mentions above. Distribution. He is aware of this process and I enjoyed reading what he wrote above. For our album (comedy) I got in touch with mp3.com and put up a web page via mp3.com for around a year. This page included the case picture, synoposis, tracklist, samples, ordering info, (and more) for the album. There was no charge to have this site page but Mp3.com would take a small profit from any sale. In return they barcoded my album for free, however I could not sell this barcoded album anywhere other than (privately maybe) mp3.com. I sent the link to many people I knew. I printed up thousands of bright orange and yellow flyers and posted them on peoples cars all over mall parking lots. I sat on the curb with friends and watched as random strangers approached their cars, often times ripping them off from underneath their windshield wipers. The reactions sometimes were hilarious like someone going, WTF!!! Suddanly I broke out in laughter. It was too funny to take seriously. - Our album was a comedy album, not Psy/GOA album which has a faithful, loyal base of Goa lovers. - No one told me how to advertise an albume. It forced me to be creative and not give up. But I was painting in the dark, so to speak. - I never spent or made 1 dollar on my album other than the several copies I bought. Take it from me what not to do. If an album is good enough, get it copyrighted and then contact a label. Mindsphere should go directly to a label available of releasing his debut online, in stores, etc. If a label wants to simply release Mindsphere's debut "as is," well there's a chance I don't buy it, because I have it, "as is." If an aware person/label distributes this along with great mastering values on CD via psyshop, saikosounds, whatever.. I'm more likely to buy it. Sure. It's a great, post 21st century GOA album. Goa people like it. There's a market for it. This artist needs to play gigs and promote the album that way too, in my opinion, if he is able to and willing. I've seen artists giving our their promo's for free. I learned that when you have connections to something, it makes life easier. If you know where the audiance is, how to reach them, and if you have a good product, (as Mindsphere's debut is for Goa people, it will sell. Albums can go like hotcakes at parties, especially after a live gig! But look at what I did above as what NOT TO DO, generally speaking. Mars is a strong example of someone many people can learn from on how to become more aware of this scene. I've seen people sell their album at parties, DJ's sell albums after spinning sets, and more. The key is to get your name out there. This Mindsphere album is getting a nice start by being "out there" for free. Unfortunately it could sound better production/mastering wise and it is great enough to be selling on CD too. Either way this debut is self-marketing itself by being on sites like these. This is creating a stable foundation for a potential sequel down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melancholyman Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 It does deserve a cd release, and mastering is a must I would say, and now that I voted that I will buy it I am obliged to do so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideffect... Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Hi everyone,first of all thank u again for good suggestions for my album inner cyclone where i thank people on other topics. Please change topic name from: The "Minsphere should be pressed on cd" ----- not Minsphere ( Mindsphere ) and a short answer from me to everyone about why inner cyclone released free !! God gives me a gift to understand and making this music and this is a gift from me to all Goa trance music scene. Thats all nice to see you on board... and thanx for the music, it is a gift and the answer is what I hoped it would be, keep up the good work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen dream Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 too bad a better mastering won't be possible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mars Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Thanks Jon. What I secretely expected was that some dudes out there would dare to say "ok i'll contact the right owner and see what he says" What I more secretely expected was the owner would say "ok, anyway it was planned to be released as a CD in the first place, and as long as it's just for the sake of a better mastering and non-profit, I'm fine with it". What I even more secretely expected was that some dudes out there would dare to say "ok, even for non-profit, I'm ready to take the risk, be fully transparent to the artist, spend a lot of time and work, and sell this album to the happy few who wanted it". This was more about making Psynews more than a single forum, but something more collaborative, much like in the begining. I wouldn't have got involved more than into advice & contact giving. With Psynews backing it, money wouldnt have ben a real problem (and remember Psynews is non-profit too). Strydr: Nah, with the mp3s we have we can't get a better mastering. With some uncompressed/unprocessed wavs, believe me, I know someone who can make it sound killlah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maden Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Not listen to it yet ... it will come soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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