The cancers of todays Psy scene

[Rotwang]

btw did you guys know that Eskimo looks exactly like the Joker on the new recent Batman Arkham Asylum game?

 

 

 

So he does. May I take this opportunity to strongly recommend that everybody buys said game?

[amithaba_buddha]

 

 

So he does. May I take this opportunity to strongly recommend that everybody buys said game?

 

Conclusion : call batman to make psytrance because joker's on the scene and he's evil.

what do you mean by "everybody buys said game" ?

[Rotwang]

what do you mean by "everybody buys said game" ?

 

The context was "[I] strongly recommend that everybody buys said game". I mean that everybody should buy Batman: Arkham Asylum, because it's very good indeed.

[ariScotle]

I think you get into some dangerous territory when you start to classify things in terms of how you think they make people feel.

Darker, more "evil" or "twisted" tones in music sometimes has a more psychedelic type of effect for some.

For example - with me, I absolutely love when the darker, colder (more doomy) weather comes.

Most people tend to get more depressed, sad or otherwise messed up when the sun goes away.

Here in the US, places like Seattle have super high suicide rates because its dark and rainy there all the time.

But its perception - I LOVE THE DARK, COLD, DREARY weather, and in fact, become a little more testy when the sun comes out.

In this same way - darkpsy, or maybe suomi, or psycore etc, may make some people have a much better psy experience than others.

This is why I think its healthy for psytrance to explore a lot of ground, because while there are the masses (of which I am part) that love the traditional Goa Trance

sound and style, many others are finding their home with other exploratory avenues of psytrance culture.

That being said, I still listen to about 90% stuff from the 93-97 era Goa Trance, but I also have much appreciation for Darkpsy, Psyprog, Suomi, Twilight, Minimal, IDM & Techno.

For what its worth, those are some of my thoughts.

 

Long live Goa, long live Psy, long live dance culture.

b00m

[Rotwang]

I think you get into some dangerous territory when you start to classify things in terms of how you think they make people feel.

Darker, more "evil" or "twisted" tones in music sometimes has a more psychedelic type of effect for some.

For example - with me, I absolutely love when the darker, colder (more doomy) weather comes.

Most people tend to get more depressed, sad or otherwise messed up when the sun goes away.

Here in the US, places like Seattle have super high suicide rates because its dark and rainy there all the time.

But its perception - I LOVE THE DARK, COLD, DREARY weather, and in fact, become a little more testy when the sun comes out.

In this same way - darkpsy, or maybe suomi, or psycore etc, may make some people have a much better psy experience than others.

This is why I think its healthy for psytrance to explore a lot of ground, because while there are the masses (of which I am part) that love the traditional Goa Trance

sound and style, many others are finding their home with other exploratory avenues of psytrance culture.

Very well put IMO.

[ariScotle]

Very well put IMO.

 

Much appreciated. Its refreshing to see someone who doesn't come back with insta-attacks.

Psy-culture has been overrun with hate and disrespect these days a lot of the time these days.

I did try to give my best input and its good to see it was received well by at least one.

Cheers to you for being a good part of psy.

[supergroover]

I equate such things to the general state of society. In the pre-millennial days, it was about hope and anxiety towards the new millennium. The fear generated wasn't that of life or death, but that of urgency that if we don't get our affairs in order the "machines" will take over. Or if anything, all those technological luxuries that we have generated for ourselves will likely be gone. But Y2K was a fraud. The clocks turned just like any other day. No financial breakdown, no total shutdown of society as we knew it. The anxiety we gathered was for nothing.

 

Now, a decade later... a different mindset has been fostered. 9/11, Bush, and the economic downfall of the American nation has developed a generation that knows only fear. And this fear isn't the same as 15 years ago. This fear is a fear of the unknown. A dark, dismal fear that has grown to contempt in many young people. I see it in my own children. My 18 year old son love punk rock, but it's not the same punk I used to listen to at his age. My punk rock was about revolution and fighting the system. His punk rock is about the opposite... "Fighting for what's right is a waste because nobody's listening anyway."

 

I think psytrance music is on that same level. Many of the overtones are punk rock without the revolution. Dark, broody and hard... But coming off as chaotic and dismantled. Then there's the drug factor... I don't know about you, but I rarely see real hallucinogens out there anymore. There's more amphetamine based chemicals going around than psychotics. These substances tend create much more rigid vibrations than their mind-altering counterparts. I saw this same thing happen to the rave scene in the early '90s. Ravers were trading MDMA in for Speed. Tie in all this with the sense of life or death and unknown certainty. Well, you have a formula for some seriously dark overtones.

 

Music evolution is such a complex story that it is difficult to say something useful about it. But in general I think you can indeed say that society or parts of society can be seen back in the music that is produced or in the partyscene and thus back into the music.

 

I don't think a change in scene is because of one sub genre of a genre, but needs to be seen in a wider context like twisted duo just did. Also psytrance has gotten broader and broader and now has quite a few sub genres that are getting further and further away from each other. So a split is inevitable, but not something bad. people into the 128 bpm housy side of psytrance do not tend to enjoy the 160+ bpm dark stuff and vice versa.

 

 

Other factors that can change music can be for example: technology, inspirational musicians within that and other genres, etc

[iTranscendence]

I think you get into some dangerous territory when you start to classify things in terms of how you think they make people feel.

Darker, more "evil" or "twisted" tones in music sometimes has a more psychedelic type of effect for some.

For example - with me, I absolutely love when the darker, colder (more doomy) weather comes.

Most people tend to get more depressed, sad or otherwise messed up when the sun goes away.

Here in the US, places like Seattle have super high suicide rates because its dark and rainy there all the time.

But its perception - I LOVE THE DARK, COLD, DREARY weather, and in fact, become a little more testy when the sun comes out.

In this same way - darkpsy, or maybe suomi, or psycore etc, may make some people have a much better psy experience than others.

This is why I think its healthy for psytrance to explore a lot of ground, because while there are the masses (of which I am part) that love the traditional Goa Trance

sound and style, many others are finding their home with other exploratory avenues of psytrance culture.

That being said, I still listen to about 90% stuff from the 93-97 era Goa Trance, but I also have much appreciation for Darkpsy, Psyprog, Suomi, Twilight, Minimal, IDM & Techno.

For what its worth, those are some of my thoughts.

 

Long live Goa, long live Psy, long live dance culture.

b00m

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said there.

 

When I was referring to darkpsy I wasn't speaking so much of the more melancholy stuff, as the darkpsy that has violent death metal type overtones to them.

[Ormion]

Saying Darkpsy is Psy-Trance is like saying that the shitty bleep bloop tech/electro house "Trance" artists are spinning today is Trance.

 

Sure some of the fullon may be a little cheesy or lovey dovey, but so was some of the psychedelic rock of the 60's and 70's. That's kind of the point, who wants to take a heavy dose of hallucinogens and listen to some dark evil tortured shit? Some sick, twisted people, that's who, which only proves the point being made in this thread that it's a different scene. The Psy scene has moved into the chillout world as a refuge from the hateful garbage that's infecting psy-trance exempli gratia: St. Posford doing shpongle.

 

Edit: I'd just add that there is nothing wrong with writing some stuff that's emotionally darker, but it's been taken to a whole other eschelon.

 

what???

 

1) Ppl who believe that darkpsy is only about dark evil tortured shit HAVE NO idea about darkpsy.

2) If you think that this dark evil tortured shit is something new to the scene then you're wrong. Couple years ago The Delta made an album called Schizoeffecive with a skull on the cover and tracks made to scare you. No one seems to bitch about that.

3) Bad trips exist too man. Actually darkness and negative feelings are closer to a trip than any uplifitng experience.

4) The reason psytrance kicks ass is exactly cause it can go from cheesy morning uplifting experience to dark, depressive, evil emotions.

5) Why don't you admit from the start that this rad against darkpsy is because you simply dilsike the music? It would save you some time.

[Elysium]

Never ending debate regarding dark "psytrance".

 

Let's cut it down to the essence of what's missing these days in the scene. "trance"!!!! And here I am thinking about "the state of trance" the music could put you in. This essential and fundamental ingredient has gone missing general speaking with exceptions - IMO.

[ariScotle]

what???

 

1) Ppl who believe that darkpsy is only about dark evil tortured shit HAVE NO idea about darkpsy.

2) If you think that this dark evil tortured shit is something new to the scene then you're wrong. Couple years ago The Delta made an album called Schizoeffecive with a skull on the cover and tracks made to scare you. No one seems to bitch about that.

3) Bad trips exist too man. Actually darkness and negative feelings are closer to a trip than any uplifitng experience.

4) The reason psytrance kicks ass is exactly cause it can go from cheesy morning uplifting experience to dark, depressive, evil emotions.

5) Why don't you admit from the start that this rad against darkpsy is because you simply dilsike the music? It would save you some time.

 

big + 1 here *gives scizoeffective a spin with lightening speed*

I also think of Cassandra's Nightmare - same kinda thing, and its regarded as a classic. May have even invented the darkpsy scene (don't hold me to that)

The bottom line is that rhythmic dance music can be hypnotic, light, dark, deep, melodic, scary, experimental etc AND STILL BE TRANCE & PSYCHEDELIC

there's a lot of dance music that is neither psy or trance and I get that - but I have to say I've had quite enough of the new schoolers saying old goa is lame, or technoheads saying psytrance is dead,

the battles between darkpsy and goa, the anti-prog crowd calling anything less than 140bpm non psychedelic, people who say suomi is just too "out there" to be psytrance,

or old schoolers saying only stuff from the 90s is psy. Like there is anyone who is just THE definitive authority who gets to decide what qualifies as psy music. Really I'm sick of it.

If everyone would stop trying to make definitive classifications of what the music is or is not, AND JUST LISTEN TO MUSIC AND LIKE WHAT YOU LIKE, we would have a scene without all the cancer.

[iTranscendence]

big + 1 here *gives scizoeffective a spin with lightening speed*

I also think of Cassandra's Nightmare - same kinda thing, and its regarded as a classic. May have even invented the darkpsy scene (don't hold me to that)

The bottom line is that rhythmic dance music can be hypnotic, light, dark, deep, melodic, scary, experimental etc AND STILL BE TRANCE & PSYCHEDELIC

there's a lot of dance music that is neither psy or trance and I get that - but I have to say I've had quite enough of the new schoolers saying old goa is lame, or technoheads saying psytrance is dead,

the battles between darkpsy and goa, the anti-prog crowd calling anything less than 140bpm non psychedelic, people who say suomi is just too "out there" to be psytrance,

or old schoolers saying only stuff from the 90s is psy. Like there is anyone who is just THE definitive authority who gets to decide what qualifies as psy music. Really I'm sick of it.

If everyone would stop trying to make definitive classifications of what the music is or is not, AND JUST LISTEN TO MUSIC AND LIKE WHAT YOU LIKE, we would have a scene without all the cancer.

 

 

It's human nature. What do we observe that we don't try and quantify.

[ariScotle]

It's human nature. What do we observe that we don't try and quantify.

 

True. I do it too. Just don't like it when it turns ugly.

Logical statement though.

We do quantify.

[supergroover]

3) Bad trips exist too man. Actually darkness and negative feelings are closer to a trip than any uplifitng experience.

It's kinda OT but this is not true. A trip consists of all kinds of emotions. None is more real than any other. It might even say that uplifting experiences are more common than dark negative ones

[iTranscendence]

I think some people definitely "exercise the demons" so to speak when they are tripping if they have some serious emotional issue they were already working through at the time.

[iTranscendence]

True. I do it too. Just don't like it when it turns ugly.

Logical statement though.

We do quantify.

 

 

I don't either, I know what I said was pretty inflammatory but I guess Darkpsy doesn't really fit the psy I was referring to, may be deathpsy is a better classification.

[Ormion]

It's kinda OT but this is not true. A trip consists of all kinds of emotions. None is more real than any other. It might even say that uplifting experiences are more common than dark negative ones

 

That's true yes. But a bad trip can be (and most of the times is IMO) much more ''intense'' than a normal trip.

 

 

 

For me darkpsy that deals with negative emotions, depression, nihilism etc. (which is only the 5% of darkpsy) is simply trying to express all of these through music.

I can't understand why can we have tracks about love, but not about hate. Tracks about happiness, but not about depression etc.

 

The problem starts when cheesiness and corniness enter. If a track has samples about virgins sacrifice, or Satan fucks God etc. then yes it's so cheesy and stupid and all the artist's effort to create something really dark fail miserably.

 

But when it's made in a good way I can't understand why bash these artists for exploring the dark side of life.

[ariScotle]

That's true yes. But a bad trip can be (and most of the times is IMO) much more ''intense'' than a normal trip.

 

 

 

For me darkpsy that deals with negative emotions, depression, nihilism etc. (which is only the 5% of darkpsy) is simply trying to express all of these through music.

I can't understand why can we have tracks about love, but not about hate. Tracks about happiness, but not about depression etc.

 

The problem starts when cheesiness and corniness enter. If a track has samples about virgins sacrifice, or Satan fucks God etc. then yes it's so cheesy and stupid and all the artist's effort to create something really dark fail miserably.

 

But when it's made in a good way I can't understand why bash these artists for exploring the dark side of life.

 

I think there are just a lot of "anti anything new in psy that isn't old school goa" people in the scene who are just never going to accept change.

And while that's ok for them, I think they are missing out.

IMO some of THE BEST PSY (and yes old school heads, PSY) stuff out there these days is darker, more twisted, glitchy and full of energy.

Can't get enough of a lot of the stuff coming out of Germany, Russia, Japan and obviously South Africa drops bombs all day long.

Psy has many faces now - let it be what it is and stop bashing new artist's exploration.

Just enjoy

[Elysium]

I think there are just a lot of "anti anything new in psy that isn't old school goa" people in the scene who are just never going to accept change.

And while that's ok for them, I think they are missing out.

 

I disagree.

 

For me the essence of the debate is if today's psytrance should be called trance according to the way I understand the meaning of trance music (the roots of the term trance and the point that it's supposed to put you into a state of trance). I can only debate out from a personal view. It's a matter of why you as a person entered/enter into this scene. I can with 100% accuracy say I would never enter into this scene today if I initially had been introduced to today's dominant genres of this scene (opposite of how the music was and what it stood for when I discovered this scene). Hands in the air and big buildups and mainstream pop psytrance is just not compliant with my personal believes or why I entered into this scene so many years ago. Yes things change and the World moves on but some things are essential and can not be debated. And here I think about the term "trance". Trance is trance and when trance is removed from the music it's no longer trance. Simple as that. I would even stretch it so far and debate that 9/10 tracks in this scene has very little to do with "trance".

 

Of course there is still trance music released but let's be honest. It's very hard to enter into a state of trance when you constantly are being interrupted by the next "wow factor" break and "The God" on stage all people are looking at and worshiping instead of dancing. And this lead me to another point. The music and the scene has lost it's essential vision. It's not about fame and fortune (Shpongle get's Euro 100.000 these days, the right clothes, chasing girls, getting drunk, snorting coke but all about dancing and being free of all those things society put down our throats.

 

I am sure many disagree with me, especially those who did not experience the early scene and by that have no comparison. But this is my view on the scene today. Should I just give up and leave then. Maybe. But I still love trance in it's pure form and believe things can change. Maybe I'm just being naive

 

And I produce and listen to so much other new music so I disagree that I'm one of those who never accept changes. But changes are only good if it bring on something better!

[Ormion]

I disagree.

 

For me the essence of the debate is if today's psytrance should be called trance according to the way I understand the meaning of trance music (the roots of the term trance and the point that it's supposed to put you into a state of trance). I can only debate out from a personal view. It's a matter of why you as a person entered/enter into this scene. I can with 100% accuracy say I would never enter into this scene today if I initially had been introduced to today's dominant genres of this scene (opposite of how the music was and what it stood for when I discovered this scene). Hands in the air and big buildups and mainstream pop psytrance is just not compliant with my personal believes or why I entered into this scene so many years ago. Yes things change and the World moves on but some things are essential and can not be debated. And here I think about the term "trance". Trance is trance and when trance is removed from the music it's no longer trance. Simple as that. I would even stretch it so far and debate that 9/10 tracks in this scene has very little to do with "trance".

 

Although I kind of agree with you, we always get the classic question.

Is a kind of music something that stays stale or something that it's evolving and may end up into something that has little to do with its original form?

 

If we agree that Trance is Trance and stays as Trance then yes, 9/10 of today's psytrance isn't trance.

But if Trance has evolved in all those years then a big majority of today's music is indeed Trance.

 

Here is an example. In the new comp. Freaks United Alien Mental wrote ''...to create some of the most original and unique trance music on the planet today''.

Now Freaks United is an extreme darkpsy compilation.

For someone who knows Trance as Trance then calling that comp Trance music would sound ridiculous.

For me who I was present in all those years of evolution this comp indeed sounds as Trance despite the lack of melodies or rhythmic loops.

 

I hope you get what I mean.

 

After all which kind of music stays the same? Rock todays has nothing to do with the Rock in 60's or 70's, but it's still Rock, isn't it?

[Elysium]

Although I kind of agree with you, we always get the classic question.

Is a kind of music something that stays stale or something that it's evolving and may end up into something that has little to do with its original form?

 

If we agree that Trance is Trance and stays as Trance then yes, 9/10 of today's psytrance isn't trance.

But if Trance has evolved in all those years then a big majority of today's music is indeed Trance.

 

Here is an example. In the new comp. Freaks United Alien Mental wrote ''...to create some of the most original and unique trance music on the planet today''.

Now Freaks United is an extreme darkpsy compilation.

For someone who knows Trance as Trance then calling that comp Trance music would sound ridiculous.

For me who I was present in all those years of evolution this comp indeed sounds as Trance despite the lack of melodies or rhythmic loops.

 

I hope you get what I mean.

 

After all which kind of music stays the same? Rock todays has nothing to do with the Rock in 60's or 70's, but it's still Rock, isn't it?

 

 

I know what you mean and agree but I think you misunderstood my point. I do not want music to stay the same (here I think regarding sounds, production, melodies etc.) but when it comes to getting people into a state of trance" (without use of drugs), which is the whole idea and center point in trance music, then you can not call non-hypnotic music for trance any longer. And 9/10 tracks in this scene is not even close to hypnotic with all the big hands build-ups and 20 break-downs in 6 minutes or way too fast bpm's. To get into a state of trance you need a bpm not too fast simply because a faster heart rhythm caused byt too fast bpm's will do the oposite and prevent you from getting into a state of trance - NATURALLY

 

That was my point edited down to a very simple explanation

[ariScotle]

I know what you mean and agree but I think you misunderstood my point. I do not want music to stay the same (here I think regarding sounds, production, melodies etc.) but when it comes to getting people into a state of trance" (without use of drugs), which is the whole idea and center point in trance music, then you can not call non-hypnotic music for trance any longer. And 9/10 tracks in this scene is not even close to hypnotic with all the big hands build-ups and 20 break-downs in 6 minutes or way too fast bpm's. To get into a state of trance you need a bpm not too fast simply because a faster heart rhythm caused byt too fast bpm's will do the oposite and prevent you from getting into a state of trance - NATURALLY

 

That was my point edited down to a very simple explanation

 

Good point. Well said. I think I get more of what you mean now.

 

Curious... did you see this? Elysium click here

Really would like to see your thoughts on this one.

Thanks for your time

 

 

Cheers everyone

[Twisted D*U*O]

I disagree.

 

For me the essence of the debate is if today's psytrance should be called trance according to the way I understand the meaning of trance music (the roots of the term trance and the point that it's supposed to put you into a state of trance). I can only debate out from a personal view. It's a matter of why you as a person entered/enter into this scene. I can with 100% accuracy say I would never enter into this scene today if I initially had been introduced to today's dominant genres of this scene (opposite of how the music was and what it stood for when I discovered this scene). Hands in the air and big buildups and mainstream pop psytrance is just not compliant with my personal believes or why I entered into this scene so many years ago. Yes things change and the World moves on but some things are essential and can not be debated. And here I think about the term "trance". Trance is trance and when trance is removed from the music it's no longer trance. Simple as that. I would even stretch it so far and debate that 9/10 tracks in this scene has very little to do with "trance".

 

Of course there is still trance music released but let's be honest. It's very hard to enter into a state of trance when you constantly are being interrupted by the next "wow factor" break and "The God" on stage all people are looking at and worshiping instead of dancing. And this lead me to another point. The music and the scene has lost it's essential vision. It's not about fame and fortune (Shpongle get's Euro 100.000 these days, the right clothes, chasing girls, getting drunk, snorting coke but all about dancing and being free of all those things society put down our throats.

 

I am sure many disagree with me, especially those who did not experience the early scene and by that have no comparison. But this is my view on the scene today. Should I just give up and leave then. Maybe. But I still love trance in it's pure form and believe things can change. Maybe I'm just being naive

 

And I produce and listen to so much other new music so I disagree that I'm one of those who never accept changes. But changes are only good if it bring on something better!

 

^^^

QFT

 

I agree Elysium... I began trancing out in the mid/late 90s. I just can't trance out to the sounds of a drilling 909 kick drum at 150bpms.

 

What got me into psytrance was that I could listen to the music under different mindsets. If I felt like getting lost in my head, I could do it. But if some euphoric rush came to me then the same music moved me to move my dancing feet. For me psytrance was MENTAL music (ie: psychedelic). Today's psytrance (at least a limited amount of it) has lost its mental-ness and focus on the body rush. Hard, fast rhythms aren't designed to send your mind whirling, they're designed to up your heart rate and get you dancing.

[Drosophila]

I know what you mean and agree but I think you misunderstood my point. I do not want music to stay the same (here I think regarding sounds, production, melodies etc.) but when it comes to getting people into a state of trance" (without use of drugs), which is the whole idea and center point in trance music, then you can not call non-hypnotic music for trance any longer. And 9/10 tracks in this scene is not even close to hypnotic with all the big hands build-ups and 20 break-downs in 6 minutes or way too fast bpm's. To get into a state of trance you need a bpm not too fast simply because a faster heart rhythm caused byt too fast bpm's will do the oposite and prevent you from getting into a state of trance - NATURALLY

 

That was my point edited down to a very simple explanation

 

I agree on the fast bpm's "psycore" is no really trance inducing. And taking about psycore, I can find it entertaining for a while at parties but I usually get tired of being in the "death dome" (regarding the spiralling effects lot's of artist use) after 30-45 min, then it becomes "trivial" and then annoying. And yes that is simply because I really can't stay in my state of trance! It's like (just an analogue) being pulled out of my sleep just after reaching it's intoxicating effects, it really just doesn't do the trick for me in the long run! But that said I can definitely feel the psychedelic effect, but in the end I would like to avoid the feeling of bleeding out of my ears!

 

For darker trance, I by far prefer forest trance (scando style, what ever you want call it), and that is because it is base on hypnotic rhythms and sounds, with out the breaks every 10-15 seconds, and bpm's usually in the 145-152 range! I started listing to psy/goa/trance in the mid-nineties (not only because of that of course) so totally get the whole trance=hypnosis thing

[NDM]

I honestly don't have a problem with all the influences from techno, tech house, and progressive house; also, I think the wide tempo range is a cool aspect of the genre. Actually, I think that getting into modern psytrance has helped me begin to appreciate pretty much every kind of EDM under the sun. It's a melting-pot genre, meant for the open-minded.