Melancholyman Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I hate to say, you all failed at this topic. I am not talking about what you hate or dislike, I am talking about releases that people THINK are psy/goa but does not have the elements of it at all. BPC is a perfect example of this for ME. If you hate KoxBox, that is one thing, but I think that KoxBox has way more psychedelic elements than alot of the music released at the time of the first few KoxBox releases. Please, do not make this topic a "I hate Etnica, so I do not think they made a milestone" take REAL milestone releases that are considered psy, that do not have the PSY elements. Cant find one?! Dont let your taste drift this topic apart from what it is /Das Bast00rd Well the topci says releases that are seen as milestones but aren't. It doesen't say anything about the release being psychedelic or not. Only I can think of is like someoen mentioned earlier, OTT- Blumenkraft. Sure there are psychedelic elements in it, but it's not my cup of tea. Now I don't know if it's considered to be a milestone or not. But, yeah this topic is very vague and hard to categorize. Like Nemo is saying, I've tried really really hard to appreciate Pleiadians - I.F.O, very psychedelic stuff. But I don't like it. But it's definately a milestone. And also, how are we to define milestone? Buy sales? Buy popularity? No RAH, I was just fucking about Sorry.. oh and you got that line over the o, very neat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melancholyman Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Hey Nemo.BOFH , why don't you give us a release considered to be a milestone, then we can argue for and against. And give good evaluated answers to why that release should be fried or honoured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 Well the topci says releases that are seen as milestones but aren't. It doesen't say anything about the release being psychedelic or not. Only I can think of is like someoen mentioned earlier, OTT- Blumenkraft. Sure there are psychedelic elements in it, but it's not my cup of tea. Now I don't know if it's considered to be a milestone or not. But, yeah this topic is very vague and hard to categorize. Like Nemo is saying, I've tried really really hard to appreciate Pleiadians - I.F.O, very psychedelic stuff. But I don't like it. But it's definately a milestone. And also, how are we to define milestone? Buy sales? Buy popularity? No RAH, I was just fucking about Sorry.. oh and you got that line over the o, very neat Maybe if you read what I said in my initial post, you would get it? Stop being a nitpicker Hey Nemo.BOFH , why don't you give us a release considered to be a milestone, then we can argue for and against. And give good evaluated answers to why that release should be fried or honoured. Uhhhh, I DID!?! IMO, BPC - Overbloody Flood EP on UFK does NOT class as PsyTrance or is not even close to being Goa. Why? Well, have a look at other labels like Eye-Q or Harthouse, and you will hear why. It has none of the elements of Goa/Psy, but it does have ALL the elements of classic Trance. Yet we say in our scene it belongs to our scene. How weird isn't that? I mean, this track was probably less played in Goa than Vernons Wonderland, but yet Wonderland is not tagged Oldschool Goa Now you go! (I have a couple of other objections as well) :wank: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melancholyman Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Well you know I'm an amateur, so maybe you could give a release someone know about? I don't know any of those releases or labels you mention. Hmm, maybe, I should stay away from this topic if I'm such a retard regarding those areas of discussion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malevol3nt Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Fine, I'll just add FULLON to the list of things that shouldn't be considered psy trance at all. my bloody opinion. Bring on the skazi army! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 Well you know I'm an amateur, so maybe you could give a release someone know about? I don't know any of those releases or labels you mention. Hmm, maybe, I should stay away from this topic if I'm such a retard regarding those areas of discussion... Maybe you should listen to the release, and then make your mind up. The thing is that you just replied to a topic, with no knowledge of even what I was talking about, which is pretty damn fucking sad. I mean, come ON, if you do not even know the track, and then you ask me for an EXAMPLE, that is pretty damn LAME if you ask me. Here you go: (Found it on YouTube LOL) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEV7ulWsxus (Wonderland) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGZ9h4s03Z0 (Overbloody Flood) and then compare to: (Genetic - Transmission) Or that Listen to the so called elements, the ones that we try and identify as being goa or psy... Just try and feel what is the difference..?? And I am not trying to be a cunt about this, I am trying to have an INTELLIGENT discussion about how some tracks or even acts ended up being "Psy" but are clearly not. Not that I mind in any sense, I still love the music... (yes 3 of them above are some of my fav tracks EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVER!) Hint to you: Listen to the mainline coming in at 3.17 of the genetic track, such elements were the typical ones for "Goa" or "Psychedelic Trance" back then... Analyze, and then get back to me pliz?! I mean, I do not even mind if you argue against me, maybe I am totally wrong about things here, but for ME the 2 first posted tracks are clearly built on the "same formula" whilst the 3rd track is NOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 D-Nox & Beckers!!! Every progressive freak loves them, they are clearly a milestone, I don't see a link with psychedelic trance anymore... it bored me to death and it was not psychedelic, neither trance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 D-Nox & Beckers!!! Every progressive freak loves them, they are clearly a milestone, I don't see a link with psychedelic trance anymore... it bored me to death and it was not psychedelic, neither trance... But still not seen as a PSY milestone. You are still talking about TASTE here. Not about what the MOREPART of our scene has seen as a milestone and clearly is not even psytrance. I think D-Nox and Beckers were more seen as a BREAKOUT part from the psy scene, and has made it very far aside from the scene.. No? Just like the latest Ticon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 But still not seen as a PSY milestone. You are still talking about TASTE here. Not about what the MOREPART of our scene has seen as a milestone and clearly is not even psytrance. I think D-Nox and Beckers were more seen as a BREAKOUT part from the psy scene, and has made it very far aside from the scene.. No? Just like the latest Ticon? There's a huge difference between Ticon and D-Nox & Beckers IMO. Ticon started as a psytrance group. Minimal, techno-ish yes, but they were part of the psy scene. The same with Skazi, the same with IM. From the other hand D-Nox & Beckers were never a part of the psy scene. Just a housey-techy group that some labels ''brought'' in the the psy scene. Sorry for the off topic btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 There's a huge difference between Ticon and D-Nox & Beckers IMO. Ticon started as a psytrance group. Minimal, techno-ish yes, but they were part of the psy scene. The same with Skazi, the same with IM. From the other hand D-Nox & Beckers were never a part of the psy scene. Just a housey-techy group that some labels ''brought'' in the the psy scene. Sorry for the off topic btw. Yes, true that. I can not argue against it. However, you can not argue that D-Nox and Beckers were ever considered a PSY milestone. You can argue that fans of "Electro House" became more aware of the whole other scene with D-Nox and Beckers or other similar artists. That Trentemoller is taken up in this topic is also totally out of my comprehension to be honest. Trentemoller might be psychedelic to me, but has absolutely nothing to do with PSYtrance imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melancholyman Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Maybe you should listen to the release, and then make your mind up. The thing is that you just replied to a topic, with no knowledge of even what I was talking about, which is pretty damn fucking sad. I mean, come ON, if you do not even know the track, and then you ask me for an EXAMPLE, that is pretty damn LAME if you ask me. Here you go: (Found it on YouTube LOL) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEV7ulWsxus (Wonderland) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGZ9h4s03Z0 (Overbloody Flood) and then compare to: (Genetic - Transmission) Or that Listen to the so called elements, the ones that we try and identify as being goa or psy... Just try and feel what is the difference..?? And I am not trying to be a cunt about this, I am trying to have an INTELLIGENT discussion about how some tracks or even acts ended up being "Psy" but are clearly not. Not that I mind in any sense, I still love the music... (yes 3 of them above are some of my fav tracks EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVER!) Hint to you: Listen to the mainline coming in at 3.17 of the genetic track, such elements were the typical ones for "Goa" or "Psychedelic Trance" back then... Analyze, and then get back to me pliz?! I mean, I do not even mind if you argue against me, maybe I am totally wrong about things here, but for ME the 2 first posted tracks are clearly built on the "same formula" whilst the 3rd track is NOT! Well first of all the first two tracks you linked to are quite boring. There's a big difference between them and the other two you linked. The latter two, resembles much more what I call psytrance or goa. I would agree that the first ones sound much more like generic trance. I mean as an amateur, I can only tell the "feeling" when hearing the tracks, and the first two are definitely not what I feel goa or psytrance would sound like. I actually feel that wonderland lacks any psychedelic element. The second track Overbloody is a more tough call. I won't make any statement on that one, but the first Wonderland is clearly to me not psychedelic nor goa or psy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 I hate to say, you all failed at this topic. I am not talking about what you hate or dislike, I am talking about releases that people THINK are psy/goa but does not have the elements of it at all. BPC is a perfect example of this for ME. If you hate KoxBox, that is one thing, but I think that KoxBox has way more psychedelic elements than alot of the music released at the time of the first few KoxBox releases. Please, do not make this topic a "I hate Etnica, so I do not think they made a milestone" take REAL milestone releases that are considered psy, that do not have the PSY elements. Cant find one?! Dont let your taste drift this topic apart from what it is /Das Bast00rd So you mean which in YOUR opinion are NOT (Milestones or Psy?) For not psytrance Love Juno Reactor albums and most are classed as Psy-Trance but I don't really think Transmissions or Labyrinth are. But then it is hard to define Psy as I find both albums very psychedelic but not so fitting in with the goa/psy image. for not milestones though Before I mentioned Hallucinogen - The Lone Deranger, considered by many to be a milestone in Psy just like his first release Twisted. Although I find twisted groundbreaking I just don't get what was so fresh & amazing about TLD. People hark on about it like it was the second coming but I found it very average, not nearly as psychedelic as twisted and I have to say too cheesy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Ah, now I see what you mean. But it is a bit of a paradox: musical genres aren't defined by a specific sound as much as people's perceptions of the music. When I understood what the original intent was I immediately thought of The Muses Rapt - Spiritual Healing. Undeniably a psytrance milestone, but is it psytrance? I've never been sure. You could say the same for early Platipus releases... but this is very murky territory to be exploring. I mean, if you're going to identify BPC's early work, why not that of Eat Static or Juno Reactor? It seems a bit pointless since all this stuff is considered to be a part of psytrance history... and it has less to do with the technical sound you observe but the feeling of the music--a highly subjective response. There is this sense that the stuff that is considered to be psytrance somehow goes together. And that, I think, is sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visine Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Ah, now I see what you mean. But it is a bit of a paradox: musical genres aren't defined by a specific sound as much as people's perceptions of the music. When I understood what the original intent was I immediately thought of The Muses Rapt - Spiritual Healing. Undeniably a psytrance milestone, but is it psytrance? I've never been sure. You could say the same for early Platipus releases... but this is very murky territory to be exploring. I mean, if you're going to identify BPC's early work, why not that of Eat Static or Juno Reactor? It seems a bit pointless since all this stuff is considered to be a part of psytrance history... and it has less to do with the technical sound you observe but the feeling of the music--a highly subjective response. There is this sense that the stuff that is considered to be psytrance somehow goes together. And that, I think, is sufficient. My thoughts exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travbrad1001 Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 A lot of this is going to come down to personal taste/opinion basically. If there are certain styles of psy you don't like, you'll probably have a hard time seeing them as milestones. Plus, a lot of us only recently got into psy too (I discovered it around 2002), so I think it's hard to tell how groundbreaking some of the older stuff is. I mean to me Astral Projection or Etnica honestly don't sound that special (I await my ban ), but I'm sure it was amazing back when it was released. A lot of the psy I like now probably wouldn't even exist without those early innovators. Ott - Blumenkraft Say what you want, I don't like it. The first song is good, yeah. But the rest not IMO. Never understood the fuss that chill fans made about this one... Have to agree here (at least partially). I thought it was good, but certainly not great. Not only that, but the more I listened to it the less I liked it (usually not a sign of a groundbreaking album) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 Ah, now I see what you mean. But it is a bit of a paradox: musical genres aren't defined by a specific sound as much as people's perceptions of the music. When I understood what the original intent was I immediately thought of The Muses Rapt - Spiritual Healing. Undeniably a psytrance milestone, but is it psytrance? I've never been sure. You could say the same for early Platipus releases... but this is very murky territory to be exploring. I mean, if you're going to identify BPC's early work, why not that of Eat Static or Juno Reactor? It seems a bit pointless since all this stuff is considered to be a part of psytrance history... and it has less to do with the technical sound you observe but the feeling of the music--a highly subjective response. There is this sense that the stuff that is considered to be psytrance somehow goes together. And that, I think, is sufficient.Ok, so what you are saying is, that the formula does not have to apply? Dont get me wrong here, but the formula was pretty clear back in the days imo. Indian sound, alien sounds and not so "straight forward" as all the other "trance". You are talking about Juno Reactor, I would say, it is more tech trance, than Psy trance (when speaking about formula) and would not classify as Psy/Goa in my book, and that might be my mistake as well. As for Eat Static, it had more of the formula than for instance the Platipus stuff. For me, the platipus stuff fit well into a goa set, but not necessarily sounding like psy or goa. It had some really nice ACID TRANCE but the formula was not there. Of course, it is in the ear of the beholder to chose, and I might be out on a limb here. I might be totally wrong about what I say -well not wrong, but just not agreeing with what 90% of the others say- but still if you listen closely to tracks that are released in the same time, BPC for instance, is a total break apart from the goa/psy sound, but still was/is considered one major release in this scene. I mean, in the days, way back then in the 90s, you had "goa" djs spin everything from Vernons Wonderland, Energy 52 to stuff from Planet Rhythm. The first 5 releases on Planet Rhythm were back then considered as major releases in the Psy Scene, but for me it was more Tech Trance than anything else. Which later then became Techno. Today they are considered Techno Releases... This discussion however, is not about right or wrong, it is about releases that were misplaced in our genre, and made a milestone, even though it was not really a Psy Release. And its nice that you mentioned Platipus, I mean, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn6RJKXejtw One of the most epic TRANCE tracks that I have ever heard, also seen as one of the milestone tracks in psy, but by other scenes seen as as something else.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUQR-qIrXso...feature=related (Remixed by one of the finest Techno Producers out there) Ok, OK! I know that the sound was way broader back then, and that at Techno Parties -or raves- there was a lot of variation... I am trying to look back and see... not what was back then, but what is today... in a way... Cause the particular track, is by the TRANCE SCENE seen as a major milestone for its genre today! (scene wars?!) Edit: What about this track? What is that? (One of the MOST PLAYED tracks on Psy Parties in Sweden back then) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 you said D-Nox & Beckers are not a milestone in trance, well, the progressive people in Belgium won't agree, they all say they are the godfathers of modern progressive psychedelic trance... The problem is, I have no idea if that is true as I don't follow it at all... Else I agree with Basilisk, that of course the early releases are not per sé goa/psy trance "pur sang", but they are part of the evolution towards goa/psy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxime999 Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 what is it with psytrance fan always wanting to be non-mainstream, even within the genre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted December 9, 2008 Author Share Posted December 9, 2008 what is it with psytrance fan always wanting to be non-mainstream, even within the genre?Who is trying to be non-mainstream here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padmapani Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 overbloody flood does have trance like song structure but a very distinct goa feel to it. genetic - transmission also uses a lot typical trance elements, but surely is goa. it gets really hard to draw a line when we get to union jack though. cactus even uses the typical psy-kick. still the whole album has a very light, transparent feel so i'd rather classify that as acid trance rather than goa. it gets even worse when listening to cygnus x - synchomism. it has a rather progressive, trance-like structure but just as much goa feel as overbloody flood. why is it not considered goa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistopheles Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 ....pffff...... I never really liked GNOTR.........don't find find rock bitch mafia that good, i mean perhaps it's quite innovative for that period but i fail to listen to it nowadays......actually, i got it back in 1997 and i never really ever got back to it after the first three listens.....too...noisy....?.....i don't know why but their my leist favourite (oldschool)"goa" acts.....: great but...... ......too...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistopheles Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 ....but all things considered.....they remain a milestone [edit 26/12/08 0u50: ... that has aged poorly, hearing it back these days ]......... ... ... ...no more no less......... [edit 26/12/08 0u55: I just do not like this album, that's why it's not a personal milestone, however I can imagine it could be one in general..... Just wanted to add that I was unaware of this unwritten law, apparantely written now ; there were never supposed to be 2 posts, just one....; all apologozies Rah....] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 You can't contradict yourself in the same thread Mephisto... least of all in the post afterwards. it's an unwritten psynews rule. You can however contradict yourself in the same post, but you must explain why, and the exact hour of the edit must be provided. Going back to the topic. Rock bitch mafia is either in or out, please make decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemmiwinks Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 IMO, BPC - Overbloody Flood EP on UFK does NOT class as PsyTrance or is not even close to being Goa. Why? Well, have a look at other labels like Eye-Q or Harthouse, and you will hear why. It has none of the elements of Goa/Psy, but it does have ALL the elements of classic Trance. Yet we say in our scene it belongs to our scene. How weird isn't that? I mean, this track was probably less played in Goa than Vernons Wonderland, but yet Wonderland is not tagged Oldschool Goa Now you go! (I have a couple of other objections as well) well that's pretty hard to judge IMO since goatrance didn't really officially exist in 1993 when Overbloody Flood was released... and most of the trance played in Goa in the early 90s WAS stuff from Eye Q and Harthouse... as a general rule I see that artists who released stuff later on as psytrance get their earlier stuff called psytrance as well even if it had nothing even remotley psytrance in them... Personally I always like to play some old Dimension 5 to people and see their reaction Scatterbrain's Infernal Angel :o too shocked to say anything :o I hate to say, you all failed at this topic. I am not talking about what you hate or dislike, I am talking about releases that people THINK are psy/goa but does not have the elements of it at all. BPC is a perfect example of this for ME. If you hate KoxBox, that is one thing, but I think that KoxBox has way more psychedelic elements than alot of the music released at the time of the first few KoxBox releases. Please, do not make this topic a "I hate Etnica, so I do not think they made a milestone" take REAL milestone releases that are considered psy, that do not have the PSY elements. Cant find one?! Dont let your taste drift this topic apart from what it is /Das Bast00rd ok if you put it that way... ALL PROGRESSIVE PSY!!!! I've been on a personal crusade to wipe psygressive out of the psytrance genre for years now. It has NONE of the elements that made goa/ psytrance stand out as a genre: no climaxes, no tension-release, no multi-layering, no acid lines, no melody changes, no atmospheric pads, etc etc etc Also Eat Static, Bamboo Forest, Joujouka, Juno Reactor and new XDream:) Also, the stuff that was called Nitzhonot as to make the difference with "serious" goatrance in the 90s is a lot more psytrancy than most full-on made today, not to mention new IM... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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