MattMan Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I'm reading through the latest posts and I see good argumentation and bad argumentation. There's a pretty twisted morality that says 'stealing from the rich is less immoral than stealing from the poor' - I remember discussing this with Ott on isratrance where he claimed downloading his album was morally worse than downloading Britney's latest. Another thing; the "oh so poor, romanticized music lover who just can't seem to scrape together money for *ANY* of the music they so happen to have to download illegally" is a farce at best. Give me a break. I can use myself as an example - downloading movies and apps - I couldn't care less. I can afford it, but I just couldn't care less to buy it. Now, for music - I could never ever download an album illegally,- I guess I'm emotionally attached, obliged, something. The compact stick could never beat the CD in popularity as it doesn't offer *anything* that the CD doesn't have - this is contrasted between LP's and CD's, and the difference between those. Legal downloading doesn't offer anything different either - except accessability. NEMO: At the end of the day though, people that can not afford music are no harm to the industry, cause they do not pirate cause they do not want to contribute, they just can NOT. If everyone in the world would be able to pay the crazy prices we do for music, Piracy would not exist. By this you're saying that piracy DOES exist because *few/none* of the people in the world CAN afford the "crazy prices" for music. I think this is overtly naïve. Piracy exists because people's relationship with aquiring music is now through downloading. PAYING for music just doesn't enter the average person's mind nowadays. That's why we have piracy. I'd say 1-2% of people downloading do it because they really, really can't afford the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malevol3nt Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Some of them will try to find 100 excuses to convince us/me that there's nothing wrong about that. Well there is! Do you disagree with that?I'm not going to try to figure out what everyone else thinks, but in my general view of objects in life - and this goes way beyond this topic: If it's painless to reproduce, then share it for free. From a music perspective let's see the following statement: Artist releases music. Expects money in return so he can own more of his needed objects (one example: food). Now, if food was an object that was painlessly reproduced, then food would not cost money. In that case you would not need money for buying food, and the statement above would now be: Artist releases music. Does not expect money in return because he can own more of his needed object (food) for free. ---- Of course, food isn't free. And many more 'objects' aren't free either. --- Basically, we're half-way thru to free duplication of objects. We found a way to store information digitally and their duplication is easy. Now all we need to do is find a way to make real-life objects duplication easy. The thing is, people have allready started to love the fact that they can own something virtually free. And the problem is, everything else that is non-digital is not yet easily reproduced and is thus not free. The question is: Do we find a way to make life necessities easily redistributable, easily duplicable? Or do we find a way to deny access to anyone that ever tries to own an object or information for free, even tho it's easily duplicable? -- It seems to me that free ownership of objects and information is a natural part of our evolution. The money system we live in these days was forced upon us. Did you ever have a choice weather to accept or not the system we live in today? Why shouldn't there be a choice? Shouldn't that be a fundamental right for everyone - to have the ability to choose their own way of living? People assume that they should do what the majority of people are allready doing. But that's no way of living a life, not in my book. - To answer your question (in my case) of weather or not it's wrong to download material that could lead to the loss of money for the author of that material: If the money system was something that actually worked, in a way that it awarded people who genuienly give their efforts for something that is considered a 'good deed', then the answer would be: Yes, it's wrong to download something which has a price tag on it. However, it's the exact opposite. And my answer is No, it's not wrong. I'll contribute in any other way that I know of and when I can. I'll rather have friends then mercenaries. And I'm not selfish, I allways help out whenever someone needs that help and when I know I can give the help that's needed. Feeding the system with more money would, in my view, only contribute to an even greater addiction to the money system, which is corrupt in it's every form. So this whole downloading issue for me has alot to do with my principles, my view on money itself. I hope you can understand that. If not.. well that's allright, I won't judge you. But I had to make this clear. ~Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattMan Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Malevolent. I love your idea of duplicating other necessities for humans. I've dwelt in that theory myself, mainly because it *perfectly* illustrates the reality and problem with illegal downloading. Here goes. You've got a duplication machine in your pocket - you enter the grocery store, fill your bags with duplicated groceries and leave everything as it was in the store, but also leaving with full bags of groceries. The work put in producing the original groceries is unrewarded - and through the capitalist system, you have not deserved what you've left with. The grocery store has lost profit, but not *money*. This is a direct parallell to p2p - it circumvenes capitalism, and since that's the system that everything else is based on - whatever you may feel about capitalism - that's what we've got, and that's what we ultimately have to bend to. I'm a born realist, and a pragmatist. And if the goal is to change our capitalist ways, then you've got to do it from the ground up, not from the top. It seems to me that free ownership of objects and information is a natural part of our evolution. Hmm.. Evolution.. Science.. Communist utopia.. I'm not sure how they're *naturally* in harmony. Care to elaborate? Why shouldn't there be a choice? Shouldn't that be a fundamental right for everyone - to have the ability to choose their own way of living? People assume that they should do what the majority of people are allready doing. But that's no way of living a life, not in my book. (Here comes the pragmatist again): Sure, people may choose whatever lifestyle they like; and if they would want to completely get out of the capitalist society -fine, but don't expect me to pay for your unemployment, your hospital bill, your snowshoveling or anything else.. There should equally be a balance between those who contribute and not - of course with the exception of those who can't. If the money system was something that actually worked, in a way that it awarded people who genuienly give their efforts for something that is considered a 'good deed', then the answer would be: Yes, Huh? Why doesn't it work? Be very careful when comparing the "money system" and the people using it... Capitalism in principle is great - it's people's greed that messes it up. That goes for many other things too. However, it's the exact opposite. And my answer is No, it's not wrong. I'll contribute in any other way that I know of and when I can. I'll rather have friends then mercenaries. And I'm not selfish, I allways help out whenever someone needs that help and when I know I can give the help that's needed. Feeding the system with more money would, in my view, only contribute to an even greater addiction to the money system, which is corrupt in it's every form. What gives you the right to pick and choose how and when to "help out" and "contribute"? Considering p2p downloading - that's an option you have because you *CAN* download music. If you *COULD* steal the orange juice in the grocery store, you could equally tell the clerk that - no, today I choose not to support and help you out, but tomorrow I might! Don't you see that downloading gives an artificial 'choice' that should never be there? p2p and corruption in capitalism is just the same - it's controlled by human greed, because there's an option to do so. Note: i use the "you" form as objective "you". (a person). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 By this you're saying that piracy DOES exist because *few/none* of the people in the world CAN afford the "crazy prices" for music. I think this is overtly naïve. Piracy exists because people's relationship with aquiring music is now through downloading. PAYING for music just doesn't enter the average person's mind nowadays. That's why we have piracy. I'd say 1-2% of people downloading do it because they really, really can't afford the music.LoL, I do not think that you have any concept of how much poor students and people there are in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattMan Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 You've narrowed down this group of people as they've got both a computer and internet. As a student, or a person with an internet bill, probably a job or a student loan. Where there's an income there are priorities. That's why buying CD's could be prioritized over something else. That's why I don't buy your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 You've narrowed down this group of people as they've got both a computer and internet. As a student, or a person with an internet bill, probably a job or a student loan. Where there's an income there are priorities. That's why buying CD's could be prioritized over something else. That's why I don't buy your argument.You see, I do not know where you are from, but most student homes have free internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 You see, I do not know where you are from, but most student homes have free internet. Well, I started my music collection when I was a student, and I even had to pay my OWN students home, for years I got 0.0€ from my parents, neither from the governement. So I workd on saturday AND on sunday... and that gave me the chance to buy music... it's simple As a student it is a matter of willing and priorities... i didn't go and sit in a bar, I rather spend my time and money listening my music at home btw; we don't have free internet here at a students home, damn, that would be great... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Sorry for the belgians then, but in Sweden, Germany, Denmark and Spain they have free internet. I am also very sorry that you never got to see the outside world cause you chose to sit at home instead of being social with people. Another question that is really bugging me (and I know I am going to step on some toes here, but I feel no other choice at the moment); What about those labels and record shops that actually PROVIDE the rips to the mp3 groups? I doubt they will ever admit, publicly, but I know for a fact around 20 labels, 6 record shops and about 2 distros that do it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Sorry for the belgians then, but in Sweden, Germany, Denmark and Spain they have free internet. I am also very sorry that you never got to see the outside world cause you chose to sit at home instead of being social with people. I was enough social, don't worry, but not in bars... We had boardgame-evenings at my place, with music Another question that is really bugging me (and I know I am going to step on some toes here, but I feel no other choice at the moment); What about those labels and record shops that actually PROVIDE the rips to the mp3 groups? I doubt they will ever admit, publicly, but I know for a fact around 20 labels, 6 record shops and about 2 distros that do it... That pissess me off, but as I know this exists, I can only say... it is the way it is, and I hope it is good advertisement and people buy if they like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO.BOFH Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I was enough social, don't worry, but not in bars... We had boardgame-evenings at my place, with music That pissess me off, but as I know this exists, I can only say... it is the way it is, and I hope it is good advertisement and people buy if they like Really? It pisses you off? And if I told you some really big labels actually do this, you would be surprised?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psytones Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 offtopic: .. whats up with the tension above? As a student it is a matter of willing and priorities... i didn't go and sit in a bar Like Matt mentioned, it's all about priorities. 3 beers in a bar where I live now, I could order one CD Including shipping, haha Same goes for 2 packs of cigarettes. I don't smoke cigarettes except for joint fillers, and I enjoy beer with friends in a bar 3-4 times a month. Living in general costs a lot of money, especially in my country. You should try going to a restaurant, you don't wanna know how many Cd's you could get instead of a nice served meal.. this would be the extreme example :drama: When someone who smokes nicotine is Really broke, they always for some funny reason have cigarettes or tobacco. Because it's about priorities, je? Something worth mentioning is that many people who Loves music doesn't have to have the need to have original Cd's or to Pay for the DL. They just want the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Really? It pisses you off? And if I told you some really big labels actually do this, you would be surprised?! Well, that's their choice... it will be available p2p anyway the day it is released, if they didn't do it, others would... Thats the internet reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Another question that is really bugging me (and I know I am going to step on some toes here, but I feel no other choice at the moment); What about those labels and record shops that actually PROVIDE the rips to the mp3 groups? I doubt they will ever admit, publicly, but I know for a fact around 20 labels, 6 record shops and about 2 distros that do it... You know, I keep finding Ektoplazm releases on P2P networks released by groups like "MLP" or "ZAiK" or "iND Team." All they do is download the releases, strip out anything that would actually lead people back to the Ektoplazm web site, and call it their own. Any advice on how to get these clowns to at least leave a link in there somewhere? It seems so very very lame... I thought "the scene" had some rules, but it doesn't seem to stop these groups from doing their thing. I guess that based on what you're saying I'd be interested in finding some way of "leaking" releases to the groups... but correct me if I'm wrong, would any group with real credentials actually take it? Or am I in the unique position of not having anything discerning pirates would want to distribute Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Basically, we're half-way thru to free duplication of objects. We found a way to store information digitally and their duplication is easy. Now all we need to do is find a way to make real-life objects duplication easy.Nanites and replicators, huh? Your whole theory is interesting, but wouldn't the replication of objects actually void us of our reason to live? If eveything was available for free and you really could have every object you wanted freely, wouldn't that render billions of people without work, without anything they can do, without goals to achieve and such? Because don't forget, work is actually a man's reason to live ... you got no work and no goals, you become depressed and empty (not in some days, but after a few months!). However, that's actually too far offtopic already... As a student it is a matter of willing and priorities... i didn't go and sit in a bar, I rather spend my time and money listening my music at home Yeah, a matter of priorities indeed. I chose getting drunk with mates in some shady bar as my priority And I think if there was no p2p it wouldn't have been different! I just wouldn't be a big fan of psy music right now ... I would have become one of these "customers you can't lose" because I wouldn't have become a customer! So whatever money you put into me (by providing me with free p2p releases), now looking back it was good because there was no money to lose for anybody back then because I'd not have spent a cent on anything ... and now I do buy stuff and do bring money! Another question that is really bugging me (and I know I am going to step on some toes here, but I feel no other choice at the moment); What about those labels and record shops that actually PROVIDE the rips to the mp3 groups? I doubt they will ever admit, publicly, but I know for a fact around 20 labels, 6 record shops and about 2 distros that do it...Aha, interesting. Who's doing that? I think if a label is doing it, I respect it (and go get the thing illegally) ... because it's apparently supported by the label! That's good! Everybody involved gets their money and they provide it for free. Good That's actually a leading example how I imagine a perfectly working scene! Everybody is happy and satisfied, there's enough money AND the release is free! Like Matt mentioned, it's all about priorities. 3 beers in a bar where I live now, I could order one CD Including shipping, haha Same goes for 2 packs of cigarettes. I don't smoke cigarettes except for joint fillers, and I enjoy beer with friends in a bar 3-4 times a month. Living in general costs a lot of money, especially in my country. You should try going to a restaurant, you don't wanna know how many Cd's you could get instead of a nice served meal.. Around here it's about the same. 3 beers in a bar = 1 CD incl shipping. And if you go in the more expensive bars it's 2 beers = 1 CD. And never go into a restaurant or anywhere, that's going to cost you a fortune! Until recently I probably washed 8 CDs a month down my throat... I remember a class meeting in a restaurant two months ago .. and I went there with like 20 Euros and said "I'm not going to eat anything, have maybe two beers and go home with 10 Euros" ... yeah, haha, I drank all the 20 down and still wanted more and cursed that I had not more. Lol! That was 2 CDs I drank down there in one evening, with no food! I could easily have made that 5 CDs, with food It's just too freakin' expensive! Everything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkarbiter Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Well I don't generally drink beer anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caffein:me Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 First of all, TL;DR, i didn't read all of the posts bought i hope for a bright future of the Compact Stick... I bought Vibrasphere's album as a Compact stick, and i would rather buy the compact stick than i would buy a cd, i just hope the prices would even out a bit. I can't tell how many times i lose my cd's anyway... And mostly i just like cd's for the extra material sometimes... (i take out the covers and put em on my wall, (got a whole wall plastered with all my cd covers and whatever stuff i get with my cds (posters etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 I can't tell how many times i lose my cd's anyway...but when you already lose CDs, isn't it even more likely that you will lose even more CompactSticks? I'm not talking of the few sticks available now, you can count them on one hand, probably not gonna lose any if you have just a few ... but when their numbers get bigger, won't it be even more disorganized? Sticks lying everywhere and such? I mean okay, they don't get scratched like CDs if you let them lie around, but that would make the problem of disorganisation even bigger IMO because you have no motivation anymore to put the stuff back into the cover. I ain't got any organisation problem with CDs. I have a shelf for them, with two glass doors so they don't get dusty. But with sticks? I wouldn't wanna put them to the CDs since they can't be played on he Hifi and I want the shelf organized, so I'd let them lie around or whatever and so I'm sure I'd lose them. With one or two sticks it wouldn't be a problem, I'd stick them to my keychain or somewhere ... but when they get more I'm quite sure it will result in major disorganisation... By the way, CompactStick website is updated. Looks way more professional now. The project is getting bigger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caffein:me Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 but when you already lose CDs, isn't it even more likely that you will lose even more CompactSticks? I'm not talking of the few sticks available now, you can count them on one hand, probably not gonna lose any if you have just a few ... but when their numbers get bigger, won't it be even more disorganized? Sticks lying everywhere and such? I mean okay, they don't get scratched like CDs if you let them lie around, but that would make the problem of disorganisation even bigger IMO because you have no motivation anymore to put the stuff back into the cover. I ain't got any organisation problem with CDs. I have a shelf for them, with two glass doors so they don't get dusty. But with sticks? I wouldn't wanna put them to the CDs since they can't be played on he Hifi and I want the shelf organized, so I'd let them lie around or whatever and so I'm sure I'd lose them. With one or two sticks it wouldn't be a problem, I'd stick them to my keychain or somewhere ... but when they get more I'm quite sure it will result in major disorganisation... By the way, CompactStick website is updated. Looks way more professional now. The project is getting bigger It might bother me that they quickly would dissapear in the mass of sticks lying around, but truth is that i would still feel more secure having sticks around as you state they don't scratch. the only thing bothering me might be that unlike the cd it isn't analogue, which would mean that the quality of the sound might be worse than a cd. i don't have my head into all the format battles so i still prefer my sound at least 192.mp3 files, i mostly rip my cds in 320, but im thinking of going down to 256. Just a quick sidestep there, so as i was saying with sticks i'd feel more secure. but it might not have the same collectors value as a cd. I coulnd't imagine sticks going on discogs for the same price as the rare cds. And i still hope that all the pamplettes will get included as in the cd- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psytones Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 So, I guess the whole 'save our enviroment' discussion just died. I like the idea, and it's super nice that you get a lot of extra bonus tracks, webpag links, artwork and this and that on the stick. What I really dislike is the thought of loosing a format I'm in love with for unreasonable reasons. I would hate to replace all of my CD's which I have spnt a lot of money and work on buying. It would be ducked up IF they would manage to remove all CD-players from the marked, if they would freeze 'us' out of the market. But lucky for me, and as mentioned many times before, as long as there are DJ's, mediums like Vinyl and CD will (i hope) never dissapear. No self respecting DJ will ,,spin" with CS, or an iPod (you hear that Astral Projection! =P). So I don't think I have anything to fear. CD's will always have a place in the marked, and in our hearts. This is a tep forward for the major players in distrubution, to make the option of buying, to spend money on music more lucrative. But what about cutting down on the plastic used? Is the format, the cover size so important to match the CD? To get back to the bonus sides for those who wants to spend money on music (CompactStick) Example: Atmos - Tour de Trance ( Spiral Trax , Dec. 2008 ) 1. Stay Awake 9:16 2. Skintrade 8:11 3. 46 DAZ 7:41 4. To What My Mind Attend 8:06 5. Ride the Flow 8:10 6. Nick of Time 8:00 7. Power On 4:35 8. Into the Groove 8:31 9. Jellybean 8:02 Compact Stick bonus tracks: 10. Rhythm Is 8:07 11. Runner Up 8:00 12. Instant Cargo 9:03 13. Codename Bruno 8:30 14. Persian Chiller 8:23 15. Stay Awake (The Delta remix) 6:21 input REVIEW here. PS: The Compact Stick is really worth it: 6 new tracks (1 super awesome track, 1 awesome chill track, 4 very good ones) and cool other stuff, including live video. (i take out the covers and put em on my wall, (got a whole wall plastered with all my cd covers and whatever stuff i get with my cds (posters etc.) Picture please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritual Carnage Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 It might bother me that they quickly would dissapear in the mass of sticks lying around, but truth is that i would still feel more secure having sticks around as you state they don't scratch. the only thing bothering me might be that unlike the cd it isn't analogue, which would mean that the quality of the sound might be worse than a cd. i don't have my head into all the format battles so i still prefer my sound at least 192.mp3 files, i mostly rip my cds in 320, but im thinking of going down to 256. Just a quick sidestep there, so as i was saying with sticks i'd feel more secure. but it might not have the same collectors value as a cd. I coulnd't imagine sticks going on discogs for the same price as the rare cds. And i still hope that all the pamplettes will get included as in the cd-CD isn't analogue, it's 16 bit/44.1 khz digital And yeah let's see that wall of yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai-Q Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Why not a DVD with all the MP3, Wave and movie files? Because many DVD players and recorders suports MP3, AVI and MPEG. You can directly play the DVD on the DVD player and/or recorder. And a DVD has more storage capacity from 4.7 up to 8.5 GB, instead a CS with 2GB. There is enought place for AVI or MPEG files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bit-Head Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 sorry guys but "compact *gulp* my stick"? i didnt quite get this... nothing better than the old vinyl . not kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damon Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Hey Nemo I have a question for you: what's your opinion on rapidly growing server farms/data centers which need more and more energy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reger Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Id rather MicroSD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supergroover Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I think the cs is fucking annoying. It is more work to actually listen to the files and play them if you want than cd. And I cant dj with it unless i burn em on a cd. The whole reason for me to buy cd's is to get a copy that i can actually play in 10 years time as well. Sure i can buy the cd. But then i ll miss out on the extra tracks that i want to have as well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.