visine Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 The limited number of people and the the saturation of trainwrecking caused a severe drop in record sales. And, ultimately, I believe led to the death of Psytrance. It is possible that I was the only one that recognized the sacralige. Quite possibly......yes..... you may very well be the only one that recognized the "sacralige" Did you attend Psytrance parties in the late nineties? If you did, what do you think happened? Yep, in the late 90's NHJO HYENNRO released his famous "I Try Die You" hit on Twisted records and the Psy world has never been the same ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Tbh maxfaxtor1995 I can't understand how mixing out of sync can destroy a music genre. I wouldn't go so far as to say that bad mixing killed psytrance or anything (it didn't) but I actually agree with the general sentiment expressed in Max Factor's rant. I think we can all agree that good mixing is desirable... but I would argue that good mixing is particularly important for psychedelic trance, and it isn't purely a matter of aesthetics (i.e. that it sounds good). Now, at the risk of sounding a bit mystical, trance parties are somewhat different in that there is this presumption that we gather to access different states of consciousness. This can be achieved through drugs, dance, or other stimuli, but in its most basic form the idea is to enter into states of hypnosis, heightened awareness, or liminality (a state of being in between, or on the threshold of, important life stages or decisions). I suspect it is the same sort of place accessed by the whirling dervishes, self-flagellating monks, or other seekers that employ repetitive trance-inducing actions to short circuit everyday awareness to have a spiritual (or at least insightful and rewarding) experience. The problem is that bad mixing breaks the spell. The dervish trips and tumbles. If you were zoning out you will be sucked back into the here and now. It reduces the trance experience to something mundane: just another party with a DJ playing some hot tunes. For this reason, I feel that psytrance DJs have a responsibility to take what they do seriously. That seriousness should be in proportion to the seriousness of the event. If it's your mate's house party then whatever... but for those jocks that play for crowds of thousands at peak moments it is rather important to mix as well as possible. Surprisingly, there are a lot of big names that regularly botch mixes. That's bad, but there are also the petty tyrants of local scenes: the hotshot organizer that gets wasted and trainwrecks his or her way through peak time. Sometimes you have to work with these people but you know something about the event is going to be way off for a good number of people. Not much you can really do except impress upon others the importance of good mixing. It isn't just because it sounds nice... good mixing counts for a lot in this culture--or at least it should. One final note: at least I can say that the mixing situation has improved over the years. Psytrance certainly isn't dead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nectarios Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Goa Gill did not kill the psytrance scene. I do not like his music taste, and he lacks a lot of skill mixing tunes together and building up a set, but he did not kill the psytrance scene. Bad mixing in general did not kill the psy-trance scene. There have been many people mixing tunes seamlessly, on the beat, from 1994 till 2011, from my experience. Also, psy-trance is not dead. Just look at Adriana Lima. That is not proof? http://mpala.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/adriana-lima.jpg On that note, I agree Peace out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Psytrance was killed around 1998-2000 when fluffy full-on entered the scene. From that point and forward it all went downhill for psytrance (Notice I only mention psytrance as I think a lot of other good music was made and is being made). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nectarios Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Psytrance was killed around 1998-2000 when fluffy full-on entered the scene. From that point and forward it all went downhill for psytrance (Notice I only mention psytrance as I think a lot of other good music was made and is being made). That is 99% the case. The other 1% are the artists that did make the odd good tune. Most artist became too commercial for me to listen to, all conformed to the israeli cheese fest in order to get gigs? who knows...I can't positively speak for them anyway. But I don't think psytrance is dead. Its still alive, its just not getting played at psy-trance parties much anymore. I used to get frustrated by listening to a lot of shit music at psytrance parties. Then I simply got really selective about where I would go to avoid disappointment. Which still meant me going to a lot of parties, just that I would actually be at the dancefloor a lot less than in the '90s. Peace out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsu Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Psytrance was killed around 1998-2000 when fluffy full-on entered the scene. From that point and forward it all went downhill for psytrance (Notice I only mention psytrance as I think a lot of other good music was made and is being made). Interesting to see how taste differs. For me this was the music I first heard (well, older stuff too of course since I also love the old real goa stuff) when I got into the psy scene. We just didn't call it full-on but israelitrance. I was really thrilled but soon after the progressive and minimal stuff came and parties were no longer interesting for me. I still went obviously but I was disappointed most of the times. One or two years later the fluffy sound made a return and until now for me personaly the scene is more alive than ever. Mainly because there is so much different stuff being released. From SA hard full-on to progressive that is actually psychedelic (I have to admit I never got into the old prog stuff, not even now and not even on psychedelid drugs. but that's a problem of my own perception I think) to commercial full-on (fluffy you say ) to neo-goa, there is forrest trance, ambient... Obviously there is also a lot of rubbish (for my taste that means) is being released but if I do take the time to dig through the new releases I am able to find stuff that I consider as must haves. And same for the parties. You can find nearly any style here and you can choose from small gatherings that are so underground only few people know about it and the real big thing with the commercialy known names. And everything inbetween. So psytrance is dead? Here and for me it's definitely not and I'm damn happy about it. I take it you can guess that, coming back to the original topic, for me the best music was NOT released before 2000. There are some classics and stuff like Hallucinogen is still among my favourites. But since new stuff is not Goa but psy/prog/full-on/whatever I can't even compare the old stuff to the new one. But a track like 1987 is for me on the same level as LSD for example. Music evolves and for me this is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Psytrance was killed around 1998-2000 when fluffy full-on entered the scene. From that point and forward it all went downhill for psytrance (Notice I only mention psytrance as I think a lot of other good music was made and is being made). Actually minimalism killed* the scene before fluffy full on. Full On became mainstream around 2000-2001. 1-2 years before that minimalism (lack of melodies,more techno elements, progressive sound etc) was the main reason that psy-goa lost its original quality. *psytrance never died but IMO 2000-2003 was by far the worst period of psytrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nectarios Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Actually minimalism killed* the scene before fluffy full on. Full On became mainstream around 2000-2001. 1-2 years before that minimalism (lack of melodies,more techno elements, progressive sound etc) was the main reason that psy-goa lost its original quality. Examples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Examples? Ticon, Son Kite, Digital Structures you know stuff like that. I remember that in 2000-2001 listening to a melody was actually a rare thing. Then Full On came and became the new trend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pr0fane Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Ticon, Son Kite, Digital Structures you know stuff like that. I remember that in 2000-2001 listening to a melody was actually a rare thing. Then Full On came and became the new trend. It's only natural with these kinds of cycles in music - not just for the psytrance scene. The more minimal and techno-influenced music from the likes of Son Kite (and earlier on: X-Dream, The Delta etc) was a counter-reaction for the increasingly more euphoric and melodic goa/psytrance. Then there was the full-on explosion around 2001-2002 which again was a reaction to the minimal/progressive sound - and later on we've had many more counter-reactions which has lead to the scene being more diverse than ever. Son Kite, Ticon and Digital Structures certainly didn't kill the scene - on the contrary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 It all comes down to taste. According to my taste Full-on totally ruined the scene for me personally as I saw many of the old pioneers converting into fullon artists not because they liked they music (as they admitted when you talked behind the curtains) but because its where the money was at.. This blatantly selling out made me realize that the scene was down the drain IMO. I think the scene is slowly getting back some of what it lost the last 10 years. Personally I would love to see more tribal getting back into the scene. But I would not hold my horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 It's only natural with these kinds of cycles in music - not just for the psytrance scene. The more minimal and techno-influenced music from the likes of Son Kite (and earlier on: X-Dream, The Delta etc) was a counter-reaction for the increasingly more euphoric and melodic goa/psytrance. Then there was the full-on explosion around 2001-2002 which again was a reaction to the minimal/progressive sound - and later on we've had many more counter-reactions which has lead to the scene being more diverse than ever. Son Kite, Ticon and Digital Structures certainly didn't kill the scene - on the contrary! I'm not saying that these groups, labels etc are responsible for anything. Like you said every music has its turns and minimalism was one of them. I'm just saying that before Full On there was minimalism and how much it influenced artists. In just 2 years everything from the old days (melodies, multiple layers, euphoria, maximality, mystical samples etc) dissapeared. And like I said Psytrance never died. And yes you're right that without these cycles Psytrance couldn't be as diverse as it is today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abasio Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Psytrance never died but crappy euro-pop trance started using the name psytrance and the real stuff got lost in the sea of crappy imposters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmaxfactor1995 Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 "The introduction of techno; In 1999 a group of unknown artists played exclusively Detroit Techno and Chicago House at the venue known as 'Laughing Buddha' (formally known as Klinsons) in Baga, Goa. These artist were the first people to play Techno in Goa on a regular basis. The introduction of mixing on turntables using vinyl was a first for Goa at that time. Until that point 'DJs' mainly used 'MiniDiscs', 'D.A.T' and CDs, without 'beat matching' the mixes." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_trance According to this paragraph from wikipedia, I was accurate in my assessment. It also shows that the trainwrecking was so overwhelming, it took seven years for real DJ's to even play in Goa. As a fellow "vinyl beat-matching" DJ, I had already finished spinning psytrance in 1998. These guys must have been as disgusted as I. So much, that they went to Goa to mix vinyl. I really love how the author uses the words, "DJ and without beat-matching," in the same sentence. THAT IS NOT A DJ. THE FIRST THING A DJ LEARNS IS TO BEAT-MATCH. SO, THESE HIPPIES WERE LIKE DRAG QUEENS, EXCEPT, MANY THOUGHT THEY WERE ACTUALLY WOMAN. In the immortal words of Eric Cartman. "God Dammit! I HATE HIPPIES!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I actually did beat-mix with DAT's in the 90's (It is possible). I counted the bpm's on every tune I got and arranged the DAT tapes after Bpm's and then it took some home-learned technique to make the music sync in beat. But then again I was a vinyl Dj (Acid House scene) in London before DJ'ing in the goatrance scene and had used countless hours training my beatmix skills. I would never DJ without at least making sure the tunes fit harmonically and IF at the few parties where I did not beatmix I made sure the transitions was floating and not sudden changes as example Goa Gil does so blatant wrong. Today there's absolutely no excuse not to beatmix. Unless you simply have no skill as a DJ and by that should not work as a Dj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmaxfactor1995 Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I actually did beat-mix with DAT's in the 90's (It is possible). I counted the bpm's on every tune I got and arranged the DAT tapes after Bpm's and then it took some home-learned technique to make the music sync in beat. But then again I was a vinyl Dj (Acid House scene) in London before DJ'ing in the goatrance scene and had used countless hours training my beatmix skills. I would never DJ without at least making sure the tunes fit harmonically and IF at the few parties where I did not beatmix I made sure the transitions was floating and not sudden changes as example Goa Gil does so blatant wrong. Today there's absolutely no excuse not to beatmix. Unless you simply have no skill as a DJ and by that should not work as a Dj. Amen, Brother. I agree with you that it is possible to beat mix DATs... But that takes great skill, especially if you are doing Psytrance... and as, you said, you have to make sure that the tracks have the same bpm. and then you have to figure out how to drop in and get the beats in sync... And, yes with psytrance, the beginning and end are usually very long and airy (no percussion). And, as you know that had to be in sync, as well. But, that beautiful ambiance was killed by those hippies, I don't know about you, But the arrogance that these hippies displayed was as ugly as the mixing. They acted aloof and intelligent, yet they never noticed that each individual track of a psytrance song was in sync. And that the song wasn't trainwrecking, so why would the dj. Absolutely, as far as today, shit, It is so much easier to mix with Virtual DJ than with actual vinyl.. NO EXCUSE. I am so glad you replied...I think you are the first DJ to comment. Maybe, most people don't understand what we are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 All along the years I've been active as an artist and Dj in this scene I've argued that those who did not beatmix or even worse train-wrecked did/does not know the first thing about what trance is all about. It's about "getting into a state of trance" ignited by first and mostly the BEAT and if you are constantly presented with train-wreck mixing or no flow then you will snap out of your state of trance and it will ruin thew whole experience. But it's been like talking to a brick wall simply because people lost sight in what trance is all about. I still hope we will see a revival of the true meaning of trance but I have my doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pr0fane Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 "The introduction of techno; In 1999 a group of unknown artists played exclusively Detroit Techno and Chicago House at the venue known as 'Laughing Buddha' (formally known as Klinsons) in Baga, Goa. These artist were the first people to play Techno in Goa on a regular basis. The introduction of mixing on turntables using vinyl was a first for Goa at that time. Until that point 'DJs' mainly used 'MiniDiscs', 'D.A.T' and CDs, without 'beat matching' the mixes." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_trance According to this paragraph from wikipedia, I was accurate in my assessment. It also shows that the trainwrecking was so overwhelming, it took seven years for real DJ's to even play in Goa. As a fellow "vinyl beat-matching" DJ, I had already finished spinning psytrance in 1998. These guys must have been as disgusted as I. So much, that they went to Goa to mix vinyl. I really love how the author uses the words, "DJ and without beat-matching," in the same sentence. THAT IS NOT A DJ. THE FIRST THING A DJ LEARNS IS TO BEAT-MATCH. SO, THESE HIPPIES WERE LIKE DRAG QUEENS, EXCEPT, MANY THOUGHT THEY WERE ACTUALLY WOMAN. In the immortal words of Eric Cartman. "God Dammit! I HATE HIPPIES!!!" I no doubt agree with you that there's no excuse for not beatmixing (especially today), but saying that lack of proper beatmixing is what killed psytrance is an overstatement. The psytrance-scene has definitely always had a bad reputation when it comes to DJ-skills, but nowadays I don't think it's true. There's a lot of really good technical DJ's out there in the psytrance-scene. On the other hand I even to this day still hear sets with world-famous house and techno-DJ's with lots of trainwrecks. It's not only in the psytrance scene that some people can't distinguish a good mix from a mediocre one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 There's loads of really good technical DJ's out there in the psytrance-scene. On the other hand I even to this day still hear sets with world-famous house and techno-DJ's with lots of trainwrecks. It's not only in the psytrance scene that some people can't distinguish a good mix from a mediocre one. hmmm When I played live at Antaris Project in 2009 I heard a lot of really bad mixing going on from the popular "star" Dj's. Yes some did very well (mostly those playing psytechno) but the rest was IMO awful trainwreck mixes or bad flow in the mixes. I was really surprised that such bad mixing was still been looked at as OK in 2009. I agree that top House and Techno names also screw up but that does not make it an excuse for Psytrance Djs to follow that trend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pr0fane Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 hmmm When I played live at Antaris Project in 2009 I heard a lot of really bad mixing going on from the popular "star" Dj's. Yes some did very well (mostly those playing psytechno) but the rest was IMO awful trainwreck mixes or bad flow in the mixes. I was really surprised that such bad mixing was still been looked at as OK in 2009. I agree that top House and Techno names also screw up but that does not make it an excuse for Psytrance Djs to follow that trend Yeah, I'm not saying that trainwrecks doesn't (still) happen, but it's not really an exclusive thing for the psytrance-scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@reyu Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 When some Dj at a party starts doing those "trainwrecks" like you guys described, that's usually the time when I leave a party. It kills the atmosphere for me. Luckily I haven't encountered it all too much, all in all two times in over 13 years. A good Dj should take you on a journey through psytrance with a nice build up and flow throughout the set to the point where the crowd gets really ecstatic, IN TRANCE. But that's just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visine Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I no doubt agree with you that there's no excuse for not beatmixing (especially today), but saying that lack of proper beatmixing is what killed psytrance is an overstatement. Exactly ! I think many people will agree that good mixing is desirable, but to say poor mixing killed psytrance is ridiculous. Elysium i hope you'll agree with this. Let's also not forget the cheesy full on tracks made of like 10 climaxes and breakdowns with no flow whatsoever. There was a party where the DJ was beat matching flawlessly, but he spun such tracks. Then you see the crowd dance for a minute, then stand idle during the breakdown, then euphorically dance again after the first climax, then 1 minute later another breakdown... ..I kind you not it was start, stop, start, stop every minute or two...no flow whatsoever even though they were all beat matched perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drosophila Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Exactly ! I think many people will agree that good mixing is desirable, but to say poor mixing killed psytrance is ridiculous. Elysium i hope you'll agree with this. Let's also not forget the cheesy full on tracks made of like 10 climaxes and breakdowns with no flow whatsoever. There was a party where the DJ was beat matching flawlessly, but he spun such tracks. Then you see the crowd dance for a minute, then stand idle during the breakdown, then euphorically dance again after the first climax, then 1 minute later another breakdown... ..I kind you not it was start, stop, start, stop every minute or two...no flow whatsoever even though they were all beat matched perfectly. I totally agree, while bad mixing can be annoying and disrupt "a trance", it is nothing compared to actual tracks with constant breaks in the flow! I think this trainwreck theory is blown "a bit" out of proportions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I think many people will agree that good mixing is desirable, but to say poor mixing killed psytrance is ridiculous. Elysium i hope you'll agree with this. I agree as I have never said that psytrance died because of bad mixing But too much bad mixing (and other factors too of course) has caused the scene to abandon what it's all about - "TRANCE" - and has evolved into a scene where very few people know what Trance is supposed to be like I totally agree, while bad mixing can be annoying and disrupt "a trance", it is nothing compared to actual tracks with constant breaks in the flow! I think this trainwreck theory is blown "a bit" out of proportions. I have to disagree here. IMO trainwreck mixing is a equally big problem in the psytrance scene and it ruin the experience on the dance-floor just as much as those tunes (usually full-on) that stop and start all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drosophila Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I have to disagree here. IMO trainwreck mixing is a equally big problem in the psytrance scene and it ruin the experience on the dance-floor just as much as those tunes (usually full-on) that stop and start all the time. I can see how it is a problem, but to say it is a equal cause of de-trancification of the psy-trance is imo an overstatement (trying to see beyond individual preferences). Mixing is "just" a part of a set, the content (the tracks) are in my book what really determines the "TRANCE" of a scene, I mean does some lousy dj/bookers determine a scene? And if your theory should be correct were there ever a "TRANCE" scene (by your definition)? If not, then we better find the drums, steel-skinned hands and bonfires and start some real trance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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