Progressive vs.Psy

[Elysium]

Continuing from this top 10/debate I find it interesting to debate if the so-called Progressive "Psy" Trance really has much to do with Psytrance these days?

 

In my opinion and only by focusing on the analysis of their releases/music (lifestyle etc. is another debate) labels such as Iboga and Tribal Vision (to mention a few examples) no longer can be categorized as Progressive "psy" trance labels. I know the people behind the labels and many of their artists originate from the psytrance scene but IMO this does still not make their releases "psy".

There are notable differences in the way the music is composed and where psytrance is more "wild" and focus on faster BPM, yes it can also be more slow but in general we see 145+ BPM, and an overall "trippy" atmosphere (in a perfect world) Progressive trance is first of all more slow, yes some early progressive "psy" trance was faster but not really anymore, and focus much more on harmonies (big harmonic stabs etc.) and a more "sophisticated" sound (not to be misunderstood as being better in any sense). Furthermore a notable percentage of Iboga and Tribal Visions releases are Techno and Tech House these days (especially the remixes they release). Shops such as Beatport add their releases into the Progressive House section because this is what the majority of people outside the psy-trance scene hear when they listen to their releases.

 

Of course taste is different from person to person but I hope we can keep the taste factor out of this debate as it's not what I am aiming at. Let's keep it down to a matter of differences contra similarities between these two genres.

 

So is it correct or even fair to keep categorizing labels, who once release psy-trance and progressive Psytrance (Did Tribal Vision ever release psy at all?), as Progressive Psytrance labels just because their artists once a long time ago released psytrance?

 

IMO no!

 

PS! I like a lot of Iboga and Tribal Vision's releases so it's not a debate if I like them or not. Keep that in mind please

[visine]

There are some labels still releasing Psytrance?

 

Off the top of my head, I can't think of many that still do, and by "psytrance" I mean

the mind twisting stuff that still has an element of innovation and surprise to it that really moves you.

 

The last one I heard attemt to do somehing like that is Gi'iwa with their Free Form Human album, but they are no longer in business.

Gregh on Earth's T3 album seems like he's trying something unique and so is Cybernetika's Atropos (is it a coicidence that's actually free to download?)

 

Old heroes haven't fared well lately I must say. Koxbox has released some mind blowing music, really pushing the envelope in the past, their newer releases, including U-turn conform much more to the "standard".

 

I hope you decide to really, REALLY push the envelope, because I know you can and you have the talent necessary unlike many others...not sure if you will want to as you have concentrated on either groovin' house or down to earth chillout, but I hope you decide to roll up your sleeves and deliver psychedelia

Play Koxbox first album and see how it makes you feel. (I don't want another Koxbox copy, one Filteria copying Etnica is enough I think)

I would love to hear you attept to use every tool and ounce of your energy to create that feeling in people again....the kind of beat, melody or effect you choose is totally up to you....it'd be silly to telly you to sound like anything you produced before or anyone else.

 

 

Anyways, as far as your Psy vs Prog debate, I agree in principle. There is a difference between the two although sometimes it's hard to draw the line

when listening to people like Prosect/Sonify.

[Guest antic]

Yeah, I agree most of that stuff has nothing to do with 'psy'.

 

Although there are some exceptions (IMO): Tetrameth, Sensient, early Beat Bizarre, Saiko-Pod, Shakta's "Feed The Flame", Bigwigs' "National Heroes..." all got this housey vibe, but heavily take from psychedelic trance sounds, techniques, aesthetics, etc.

[Imba]

IMO proggy is to funky and easy that i will never call it proggy psy.

 

I can listen in only on parties because here in my city 'psy' scene isnt so good, we have only proggy and sometimes some old psy like Bizzare Contact and 1200 Mics from 2002-2006

[Ormion]

For me progressive psy was never psy.

There are only a few exceptions that pop in my head. Sentient, old S>Range, old XV Kilist, Tegma.

95% was never psy for me.

Nowadays there are more clubby and gay that House itself.

[ariScotle]

Yeah, I agree most of that stuff has nothing to do with 'psy'.

 

Although there are some exceptions (IMO): Tetrameth, Sensient, early Beat Bizarre, Saiko-Pod, Shakta's "Feed The Flame", Bigwigs' "National Heroes..." all got this housey vibe, but heavily take from psychedelic trance sounds, techniques, aesthetics, etc.

 

I agree that most of the Zenon stuff seems very psy to me. Edgy, trippy, experimental, progressive for sure, but still psychedelic.

Big ups to Sensient for a top class label with great artists.

 

@Elysium

curious... where do you fall with music from labels like Timecode, Nexus Media, Yabai, Insomnia, Exogenic, Hadra, Glowing Flame?

Psytrance or some newer evolved form of something else? Trying to really get a stronger grasp on where you're at with Psy or not.

 

Great topic btw - glad this forum has opened its own path.

 

b00m everyone!

[Rotwang]

Yeah, I agree most of that stuff has nothing to do with 'psy'.

Not really on-topic for this thread, but if anybody is looking for something which is both proggy and psychedelic, may I take this opportunity to mention Elea - Stellar Connection again (my review)?

[Elysium]

@Elysium

curious... where do you fall with music from labels like Timecode, Nexus Media, Yabai, Insomnia, Exogenic, Hadra, Glowing Flame?

Psytrance or some newer evolved form of something else? Trying to really get a stronger grasp on where you're at with Psy or not.

 

 

Timecode: I think they have some cool psychedelic and deep stuff even though I really do not like most of the releases use of Full on bass lines. This drags down their releases a lot for me.

Nexus Media: Well to be honest this is not my Cup Of tea. Way too many of their releases sound like something I have heard a million times the last 12-14 years.

Yabai: Again overuse of Full on Bass lines. Not for me.

Insomnia: Again why all these Full On bass lines? It completely ruin the otherwise interesting use of sounds.

Exogenic: Def. something different and experimental but The Suomi sound never caught my attention. Too weird for the sake of being different IMO.

Hadra: I have not checked them out due to their extensive spam bombs on emails.

Glowing Flame: Again all I hear are the well known Full On Bass lines. A good example is their (i think) latest release Braincell "Frequency Evolution". Nothing spectacular here IMO.

 

I guess when it come to psychedelic for me I am pretty Old school and into deep tribal stuff like Shaolin Wooden Men and a lot of those old releases on Psy-harmonics as well as early KoxBox, Psychic Warriors Ov Gaia. This music is way more psychedelic than most of today's Full on cloned psytrance. But this has turned into my own personal opinion of course and is quite off-topic:)

[kathmandu]

"United we stand. Divided we fall."

[ariScotle]

Timecode: I think they have some cool psychedelic and deep stuff even though I really do not like most of the releases use of Full on bass lines. This drags down their releases a lot for me.

Nexus Media: Well to be honest this is not my Cup Of tea. Way too many of their releases sound like something I have heard a million times the last 12-14 years.

Yabai: Again overuse of Full on Bass lines. Not for me.

Insomnia: Again why all these Full On bass lines? It completely ruin the otherwise interesting use of sounds.

Exogenic: Def. something different and experimental but The Suomi sound never caught my attention. Too weird for the sake of being different IMO.

Hadra: I have not checked them out due to their extensive spam bombs on emails.

Glowing Flame: Again all I hear are the well known Full On Bass lines. A good example is their (i think) latest release Braincell "Frequency Evolution". Nothing spectacular here IMO.

 

I guess when it come to psychedelic for me I am pretty Old school and into deep tribal stuff like Shaolin Wooden Men and a lot of those old releases on Psy-harmonics as well as early KoxBox, Psychic Warriors Ov Gaia. This music is way more psychedelic than most of today's Full on cloned psytrance. But this has turned into my own personal opinion of course and is quite off-topic:)

 

I'm still mostly an old school guy as well. More melodies, more layers, more atmosphere, more soul - this is the stuff I love most.

Though I can dig the new stuff as well. I've begun to see more your point about progressive trance vs psychedelic trance.

Picture becomes a little more clear when you compare the styles.

 

So on topic...

Zenon - prog - psy, or both?

[Ake]

Zenon Records' music clearly "deserves" to be called progressive psytrance. and as i mentioned in other posts already, also:

 

Bio-Sine Records

Cosmic Conspiracy Records

Electric Power Pole Records

Mind Tweakers Records (at least MTRCD02)

 

and probably also the new and/or upcoming labels:

 

Glitchy Tonic Records

Polyphase Records

Solar Records

[Drosophila]

Zenon Records' music clearly "deserves" to be called progressive psytrance. and as i mentioned in other posts already, also:

 

Cosmic Conspiracy Records

Electric Power Pole Records

 

 

I agree with you on these ones (I haven't heard releases from the other labels you mention) but definitely psy(prog) to my ears.

 

And I also agree with the Elysium that Iboga, Tribal Vision (well maybe expect for the Kino Oko release(s?) has nothing to do with psy-prog anymore, maybe once they had but that's definitely in the past! I mean releases such as Beat Bizzare - Lewd, VA - Ethnobotany, FREq - Strange Attractors were pretty psychedelic, but that's in the past!

[ariScotle]

I agree with you on these ones (I haven't heard releases from the other labels you mention) but definitely psy(prog) to my ears.

 

And I also agree with the Elysium that Iboga, Tribal Vision (well maybe expect for the Kino Oko release(s?) has nothing to do with psy-prog anymore, maybe once they had but that's definitely in the past! I mean releases such as Beat Bizzare - Lewd, VA - Ethnobotany, FREq - Strange Attractors were pretty psychedelic, but that's in the past!

 

Yup - a lot of "prog" used to be a lot more psy, now its just more house/trance or whatever.

 

Loving the stuff from Bio-Sine and Power Pole - thanks for the recos Goa-Getter!!

[ariScotle]

Just heard this - definitely progressive AND psychedelic

great stuff

agree? disagree?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxZL8p5Ydo0

[RTP]

interesting debate...

 

In my opinion that what people nowadays refer to as psyprog could be called Progressive Trance and not Progressive Psy-trance ... I'd have nothing against that

In fact I'm calling it like that myself already.

 

But even if everybody would do that, where would the line to be drawn? There are releases which are psychedelic and progressive aswell - ergo real Progressive Psytrance. What to do with them?

Plus, if we would take out the "Psy-" syllable entirely, the term would probably be too neutral ... the connection to the psy scene, where this music not only originates, but still has a not to be denied close connection to, gets lost that way IMO.

 

In addition to that, the genre definitions are fixed already in so many heads. Even though this forum is rather at the centre of the scene and probably even could initiate such a change, you'd still have lots of confusion...

[Elysium]

Nice to see such a balanced debate with some interesting thoughts

 

Of course there will always be tunes that are hard to categorize and who borrow from other genres and ends up as a hybrid between Progressive and Psychedelic trance. But when 99.5% of all progressive "psy" trance in this scene has left the psychedelic factor behind then I believe it's wrong to keep calling it psychedelic. It's similar to the debate about technoish music (I call it Technoish because it's not really pure Techno) entering into the scene while the parties still gets categorized as psytrance parties or festivals. Where does it end or does it not matter anymore what it's called?

 

To me the psychedelic trance roots of this scene are important and I also feel it's totally misguiding to call non psychedelic music for psychedelic (Even though when it comes to some technoish it's quite trippy because of the repetitive patterns). Well when it comes to Festivals it's ok I guess as there usually are more stages, unless the main stage focus on technoish/progressive and still call the Festival a psytrance Festival. Then I believe it's not only misguiding but also false marketing.

 

Again I have absolutely nothing against technoish or progressive trance. I just believe we should refer to the genres the way they are supposed to be referred to. I can imagine a newcomer ending up thinking releases such as those on Iboga and Tribal Vision (again just examples) are the essence of psychedelic trance because that's what it's referred to in our scene today.

[iTranscendence]

The lines between progressive house, trance and psy-trance can be easily blurred as they all share some commonalities. I think this is why it's so important to correctly identify as closely as possible where a song or album is. I also agree that you can't call a label a specific style of music if they are releasing other styles, you have to try and identify all the styles they are releasing and clarify what they have released and what they are currently releasing.

 

I think a good example of the blurring unrelated to the labels in question is an album like Earthshine where you have songs that could as easily be labeled progressive house and/or trance, as much as progressive psy.

[Twisted D*U*O]

First, I'd like to say that really resent (and resist) using the term "progressive" on any genre. Including psytrance. Progressive is a term devised by A&R reps to sell more records. They simply attach it to any genre in which they want to express that it is a different variation of the original. Progressive isn't really a genre type, it's a description or adjective.

 

But in relation to the original topic...

 

After reading the posts, Infected Mushroom comes to mind. Yes, they once produced great psytrance. The created music that could easily be placed in any trance set. Today, they play mainstream raves, super-sized stadiums, and mega-clubs. And their sound is neither psychedelic or trance. Yet they still wave the banner of psytrance.

 

Like others here... I'm pretty old-school. I like hearing multiple layers, samples, and the utilization of different noises to create a singular, psychedelic composition. Once you minimal-ize, take away the samples, and "normalize" the soundtrack, it becomes less psychedelic and more "progressive".