And the Winner is!

[Elysium]

I'm only talking about the change in rules.

 

And I was not replying to you but to tripper. I respect your opinion but it wont change the result. Please respect our opinion too.

[tripper]

Goa spirit is in our souls....Most of us here listen Goa from 93-94 and we have given our lifes for this spirit...

[LuisBSF]

And I was not replying to you but to tripper. I respect your opinion but it wont change the result. Please respect our opinion too.

 

I am not disputing the winner remix. The rules were very clear and specific, binding both artists and organisers therefore not subject to opinions of any description.

 

This:

9. Sheyba reserves the right to cancel or amend the terms of this competition at anytime without prior notice. Any changes will be posted within the rules on Facebook and other web partners / press.

is a non enforceable clause due to being abusive. Put it simply, you cannot change unilaterally a contract and expect the other part to be held by it if they don't agree. This clause opens the door at changing the rules to "by entering this competition you transfer the copyright of all your past, present and future music compositions to us", to name one extreme example.

[LuisBSF]

Congratulations to the winner btw, just heard the remix and it's some chunky tune. Also a big fan of Radical Distortion and Space Elves versions, well played!

[Elysium]

I am not disputing the winner remix. The rules were very clear and specific, binding both artists and organisers therefore not subject to opinions of any description.

 

This:

 

is a non enforceable clause due to being abusive. Put it simply, you cannot change unilaterally a contract and expect the other part to be held by it if they don't agree. This clause opens the door at changing the rules to "by entering this competition you transfer the copyright of all your past, present and future music compositions to us", to name one extreme example.

 

 

You have totally misunderstood what a remix competition is and the legal aspects behind a remix competition. Its NOT a contract! Its a competition with some very clear legal binding rules and remix material being used OWNED 100% BY THE ORIGINAL ARTIST OR LABEL. The legality behind the competition is indeed validated by a danish law firm (used by my record label the last 5 years and used in other competitions too) and the rules can indeed be changed by the organizer of the competition. The only contract that ever will be made is with the winner of the competition prior to the release of the remix. Read the rules again and also read the paragraph stating that any artist entering into the competition accept the legal binding rules and are bound to respect them!

 

Every participating artist had the right to withdraw themselves from the competition IF they did not agree to the changed rules regarding the number of winners. None complained or asked to be withdrawn from the competition when we announced the changed rules. Only after the result the complaints started

[Agneton]

is a non enforceable clause due to being abusive. Put it simply, you cannot change unilaterally a contract and expect the other part to be held by it if they don't agree. This clause opens the door at changing the rules to "by entering this competition you transfer the copyright of all your past, present and future music compositions to us", to name one extreme example.

 

I was just about going to mention this as well, it's what we call the 'potestatieve voorwaarde' in dutch law, and it it causes a lot of legal issues (let's say it's forbidden in 99% of the cases). This wouldn't have been the case if you had been more specifically about the circumstances under which the contract could change. Of course, there's probably hundred of other remix competitions with the same foggy and dodgy rules, but that doesn't make it any more legitimate...

 

I'd say article 9 should be read together with article 11, which has a way more concrete basis. Article 11 mentions the 'unforeseen circumstances' (while article 9 mentions nothing at all). Thus article 11 might be applicable here. Giving two of the remixers an alternative price is the solution!

 

And oh, a competition is clearly a contract too, there's a consent between several parties. Who told you that this aint the case?

[Elysium]

I was just about going to mention this as well, it's what we call the 'potestatieve voorwaarde' in dutch law, and it it causes a lot of legal issues (let's say it's forbidden in 99% of the cases). This wouldn't have been the case if you had been more specifically about the circumstances under which the contract could change. Of course, there's probably hundred of other remix competitions with the same foggy and dodgy rules, but that doesn't make it any more legitimate...

 

I'd say article 9 should be read together with article 11, which has a way more concrete basis. Article 11 mentions the 'unforeseen circumstances' (while article 9 mentions nothing at all). Thus article 11 might be applicable here. Giving two of the remixers an alternative price is the solution!

 

And oh, a competition is clearly a contract too, there's a consent between several parties. Who told you that this aint the case?

 

 

Whatever you think you know. Peace with it! The bitching continues and probably will until the sun never rises again Nothing you say will change a thing though.

[amithaba_buddha]

You have totally misunderstood what a remix competition is and the legal aspects behind a remix competition. Its NOT a contract! Its a competition with some very clear legal binding rules and remix material being used OWNED 100% BY THE ORIGINAL ARTIST OR LABEL. The legality behind the competition is indeed validated by a danish law firm (used by my record label the last 5 years and used in other competitions too) and the rules can indeed be changed by the organizer of the competition. The only contract that ever will be made is with the winner of the competition prior to the release of the remix. Read the rules again and also read the paragraph stating that any artist entering into the competition accept the legal binding rules and are bound to respect them!

 

Every participating artist had the right to withdraw themselves from the competition IF they did not agree to the changed rules regarding the number of winners. None complained or asked to be withdrawn from the competition when we announced the changed rules. Only after the result the complaints started

 

Not picking sides here but , I must say that Elysium is right , it's HIS competition so that's the way it works , if you guys didn't agree with him changing the rules whenever he felt to , simple , don't participate.

Same as getting in his place , he runs it the way he wants whenever you like it or not.

He specified everything on the rules so that's 1st thing to do is to read them.

Sorry everybody.

[LuisBSF]

Its NOT a contract!

I'm sorry but you are mistaken there. Contracts can take many forms, paper & signature being just one of many. Why do you think companies are bound by law to respect their advertisement, for example?

 

The bitching continues

There's indeed no place for personal attacks on anyone on an adult debate. Please let's not lose our manners.

[Agneton]

Whatever you think you know. Peace with it! The bitching continues and probably will until the sun never rises again Nothing you say will change a thing though.

 

Well, being a law student the discussion suddenly started becoming interesting for me, that's why I mentioned the possible legal issues ...sure Danish law might have different options and jurisprudence could have differing opinions on this matter. Also, you hold the copyright claim, I don't think anybody here could discuss that.

[PharaOm]

Forgot my roots? Give me a break. What do you people know about Goa-trance roots? It's hardly in spirit of the roots of the Goa scene to be jealous, nitpicking and complaining because one of your favorite remixes did not win. On the contrary the spirit is to accept things as they are and also to welcome diversity which is hardly what some of you so called "openminded" people accept these days. So please do not speak to me about forgetting my roots.

 

 

Sorry but this is getting totally stupid and the amount of bitching is never ending! END OF STORY!!! I am really done here with this debate. keep bitching and being sour grapes! It wont change a thing. It was not a so-called Goa track who won and so what!

 

Sectarian remarks now ?

This is nothing more than music chill out, we are not guru we are PEOPLE....

[Elysium]

Also, you hold the copyright claim, I don't think anybody here could discuss that.

 

 

Seem that's a huge issue in this "debate". Some even seem to think they own the copyright to Sheyba's original material in their remixes

 

By the way Its interesting to see no one bothered to respond to what I wrote:

 

"I am pretty sure if it had been a "Goa" remix who won NO ONE would have said a word about 3 winning remixes. And no one would have complained Just my observation in the posts where people complain. It's quite evident they are upset because it's not a "Goa" remix that won!"

 

Would be nice if people would be honest about why they complain. Because as said before No ONE complained (or asked to be withdrawn from the competition) until the winner was announced

[Arronax]

Why is it bitching if someone doesn't like the fact that Sheyba turned from top-goa classic to minimalistic style? That's like changing your horse for a duck. But yeah, it's all about "taste"... However, I must state that sometimes even the finest taste fades out. I have a friend here who also listened to goa in his younger days, but later he switched to full-on and stuff like that. He explains it with "a change of taste which comes with years". So, according to that, Filteria is still a child even he has 30+ years

 

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I like both the melodic and non-melodic psy trance, but sincerely, it takes a lot less time to create a remix which Disco Hooligans made. I'm not saying that their remix is bad or something, I'm just saying that it's easier to compose. Maybe that's why many people are complaining here.

 

I also think it's stupid to argue about tastes, but sometimes people have a taste which is beyond logic

 

 

[Elysium]

Why is it bitching if someone doesn't like the fact that Sheyba turned from top-goa classic to minimalistic style? That's like changing your horse for a duck. But yeah, it's all about "taste"... However, I must state that sometimes even the finest taste fades out. I have a friend here who also listened to goa in his younger days, but later he switched to full-on and stuff like that. He explains it with "a change of taste which comes with years". So, according to that, Filteria is still a child even he has 30+ years

 

What are you rambling about? FACT???? Sheyba turned to minimal? As far as I know we did not make any Sheyba tracks since 1998! And it's quite purist to put down other peoples taste as being faded out! It's such statements that makes me wonder how openminded some of you really are? Seem to me some of you only accept your own taste and see your taste as superior to other people's taste. This is, as i said earlier, not the spirit of the TRUE Goa-trance movement!

 

And why are you mentioning Filteria? What does he have to do with this debate or competition?

 

And your edited remark regarding Disco Hooligans remix is not only very insulting to Disco Hooligans and their skills. It's also plain stupid and must come from someone who got no clue whatsoever when it come to creating music.

 

I am sorry your remix did not win and that you need to put down Disco Hooligans and our (Sheyba) decision. But a good advice to you is. Live with it and stop the sour grapes attitude. It really does not suit you very well!!!!

[Arronax]

What are you rambling about? FACT????  Sheyba turned to minimal?  As far as I know we did not make any Sheyba tracks since 1998! And it's quite purist to put down other peoples taste as being faded out!  It's such statements that makes me wonder how openminded some of you really are?  Seem to me some of you only accept your own taste and see your taste as superior to other people's taste.  This is, as i said earlier, not the spirit of the TRUE Goa-trance movement!

 

And why are you mentioning Filteria? What does he have to do with this debate or competition?

 

And your edited remark regarding Disco Hooligans remix is not only very insulting to Disco Hooligans and their skills. It's also plain stupid and must come from someone who got no clue whatsoever when it come to creating music.

 

I am sorry your remix did not win and that you need to put down Disco Hooligans and our (Sheyba) decision. But a good advice to you is. Live with it and stop the sour grapes attitude. It really does not suit you very well!!!!

 

OK, maybe I've pushed a little bit too far with this comment. I didn't make a proper introduction to the thing I was going to say and now I got you fired up on me too, which I didn't want of course. I have no clue in creating music, I'm sorry, you must be right.

 

And the remix was not (only) mine, it was the three of us actually. I didn't want to insult Disco Hooligans either, I already congratulated on their fair win. That was merely an observation of a producer who has no clue about music making, so I'm sure they won't get offended. Also, I'm sorry on behalf of the whole psynews community for being so closed-minded to your open-minded statements. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Elysium]

OK, maybe I've pushed a little bit too far with this comment. I didn't make a proper introduction to the thing I was going to say and now I got you fired up on me too, which I didn't want of course. I have no clue in creating music, I'm sorry, you must be right.

 

And the remix was not (only) mine, it was the three of us actually. I didn't want to insult Disco Hooligans either, I already congratulated on their fair win. That was merely an observation of a producer who has no clue about music making, so I'm sure they won't get offended. Also, I'm sorry on behalf of the whole psynews community for being so closed-minded to your open-minded statements. 

 

 

Take it as a man and face up to the fact you insulted Disco Hooligans and stand out as someone who think other peoples taste is "faded out". And yeah I also went a bit too far, I apologize for that, on the comment on your skills but really, I am not the one who wrote the things you wrote

[Elysium]

It's with great sadness we have decided to cancel the Trance Africa Express competition. We thought it would be a fun and good idea to organize this competition. Not only for us but also for you. But after the amount of complaints and various accusations against us and in some cases disrespect and insults regarding the winning track, and that we changed the number of winning remixes from 3 to 1, we feel this is no fun any longer. The reason why we changed the number from 3 to 1 was because we only received 8 remixes (out of 500+ remix package downloads). It was simply not enough tracks for us to choose 3 winners. We also did not feel we received remixes, except for the winning remix, we felt was right for our release

 

We could have hired established names and not bothered to include any of you but we felt it would be nice to include you. Now we feel that it was a wrong decision.

 

When we changed the number of winning remixes none of you contacted us with complaints or asked us to withdraw you from the remix competition. Only when the winner, Disco Hooligans, was announced the complaints started and keep going as we write this email - all in all from a small group of the participants and their fans (mainly from the New-School Goa movement). We could of course just keep the competition going and ignore those who keep complaining but as we said. It's just no fun for us anymore.

 

So this is our decision and it's a final decision.

 

You are all welcome to use your tracks the way you like but it must be without our original bass-line, copy of our original melodies and the samples provided. In the case of any release (by yourself or a 3rd part) of you remix or exploitation of the remix without our written agreement will not be tolerated and will be seen and treated as a violation of our copyright. You are of course welcome to promote your remix as it is now on Myspace, Facebook etc. As long as you do not make it available for download.

 

It's really sad things have come to this and we are aware some of you are very disappointed. And again we want to stress that we really appreciated all contributions regarding of taste issues.

[Arronax]

By the way Its interesting to see no one bothered to respond to what I wrote:

 

"I am pretty sure if it had been a "Goa" remix who won NO ONE would have said a word about 3 winning remixes. And no one would have complained Just my observation in the posts where people complain. It's quite evident they are upset because it's not a "Goa" remix that won!"

 

Would be nice if people would be honest about why they complain. Because as said before No ONE complained (or asked to be withdrawn from the competition) until the winner was announced

 

I will take a short time and bother to reply to that what you wrote. I am 95% sure that people wouldn't complain about the winner or anything if a goa track won the competition. Why? Because Sheyba's original track is Goa trance. A classic tune that many people loved and still love. Many people have made a special bond to that track, a special feeling while listening to it. And now, all of a sudden, when everyone was expecting a quality newschool goa remix would win, which would be a logical thing to happen since newschool goa is following the same lines as the original track did, there comes a winner which doesn't belong to that style and many people get frustrated. Why frustrated? Probably because you gave yourself a right to call other remixes not good comparing to the Disco Hooligans' track. If, by any case, you decided to put 3 tracks on the release (as you announced at the beginning), there would surely be at least one newschool goa track participating, and that would satisfy many people in their hearts and minds (especially if it's a good track).

 

So, I am trying to understand this. You're choosing this "not adequate quality" issue as an argument for reducing the winners from 3 to 1. If you have 8 tracks in a pool, and you choose only one, it means the other 7 tracks are not quality enough. Maybe that's what made other people to disagree with your choice. I personally have respect toward every true artist who makes music from their heart, and I'm not saying that the winner was chosen unfairly, but it's just what makes the whole thing smell fishy.

 

It turns out that no other track is good enough comparing to the winner's track, which in my opinion is not true. Of course, you have the full right to decide who will win, because it's your track in the first place, and I respect your choices, I was just saying that I believe you involved your personal taste above objectivity, and hence, you chose to exclude other participants from the contest.

 

 

P.S. I see that you've decided to cancel the whole thing. I'm sorry to hear that. However, I wish you all the best with your release, as I stated in my first post in this thread on page 1.

[Imba]

Im sorry to hear that. Make deadline +6 months and you will have better results...

 

Sorry

[Snapinho]

Ha. Good old psynews drama.

[mars]

And one last comment. I am pretty sure if it had been a "Goa" remix who won NO ONE would have said a word about 3 winning remixes. And no one would have complained Just my observation in the posts where people complain. It's quite evident they are upset because it's not a "Goa" remix that won!

None of you who keep complaining would complain and use the excuse of the change in competition rules - none of you complained when it was announced that the rules had changed - IF one of your favorite remixes (read: ONLY GOA) had won. Be honest

Yes, me, ME and ME! Who's generalizing?

Let's be honnest, right. I don't care about the style of the track, as long as it makes me dance. And I'm getting in this discussion just because of the change of rules, not the style of the taste. I'm a strong Goa fan and yet gave kudos to DH from the begining so I can talk.

 

I have to tell any remix competition rules are juridically speaking a contract. A contract must always be agreed by all parties to be valid. If you change your rules, you must notify in advance, and make an addenum that contestants should formally agree. If not, then it's called a unilateral change of terms and that means the contestants can be freed from the contract. If you didn't mention a term after which new rules are automatically accepted, then it can be anytime before or after the results.

What would you say if your house burnt, and your insurance company told you they'd removed fire damages from the risks list atfer you signed?

In other words, right now, whatever you'd said Kristian, I don't think you could force anyone not to release or spread anything. But that's history now.

 

I'm not skilled enough to answer wrt the ownership but I believe, indeed, that you keep it under certain conditions, and I will investigate and inform here how much artists are to edit their tracks before they aren't considered as Trance Africa Express remixes anymore.

 

Now I'm very sorry to see how it's ending, and especially for Disco Hooligans that were penalized, more than any other contestant. Reading what's above, I assume no remix will be eventually released, and I hope the competition organizers do measure the extent of their blantantly unfair decision. I can't believe the cancellation comes from the discussion here that I thought was very open and not disrespectful to the organizers. I want to tell that no Psynews moderator got any report over that thread. So it's too bad this -once again- unilateral decision is ruining a lot of long and hard work...for everyone now. I would advise the competition organizers to refrain from starting another one, so noone will loose time and energy anymore for them.

 

Last word: 2 months ago, I bet with 2 people (that I strongly discourage to intervene) that things would screw up at some point. I'm honnest till the end: this was predictable.

[reger]

Haha, true@drama

Pitty i didnt make it to listen to winning remix

As for those bitching - get over and do your best at getting released with hard work and not with lazy bitching !

Sheyba could as well cancel their contest without announcing winner at all etc and so on, its their track, its their contest! Youre not satisfied with some conditions of this contest? Well then withdraw and move on, MOVE THE FUCK ON KIDS!

Keep em as unrlsd killargh and play@underground partys !

[frozen dream]

In other words, right now, your rules are void and you cannot force anyone not to release or spread anything.

muhahahaha

[Elysium]

Yes, me, still. Your rules are juridically speaking a contract. A contract must always be accepted by all parties to be valid. If you change your rules, you must notify in advance, and make an addenum that contestants should formally accept. If not, then it's called a unilateral change of terms and that means the contestants are free to withdraw from the competition without being bound anymore to the contract.

 

What would you say if your house burnt, and your insurance companies told you they'd removed the fire damanges from the risks atfer you signed? you'd complain I guess.

 

In other words, right now, your rules are void and you cannot force anyone not to release or spread anything.

 

Nonsense! The grapes are sour here because a goa track did not win. One member already said it himself. Anyway end of story! It's our track, our competition so live with it. It's not the end of the world and as I pointed out. SHEYBA still own all copyrights to the original bass-line, original melody and samples. You as a label owner should know this as its basic knowledge.

 

IF no on complain when a so-called contract (its still not a contract no matter what you say - its a remix competition where the rules are set and can be changed by the organizer without anyone have a saying - except for a whitdraw) is being changed the participants has the right to complain or withdraw and the organizer has the right to ignore the complaints. They have no right to complain a good time after the announcement went public and when the winner has been announced. Sorry I dont buy into this issue and excuse at all. It smell of sour grapes because a goa track did not win. Simple as that!

 

And that's it from me on this whole issue. As we said. If we see any of the remixes being release or exploited without our written agreement we will treat it as a violation of our copyrights. Ask any legal expert on this matter if you still do not understand the basics of copyrights.

[Colin OOOD]

Rules of the competition aside, it seems to me that as these tracks were created as remixes of TAE, and contain melodies and samples from the track, Sheyba owns the copyright of them. Restrictions in the use of remixes (created for a competition or otherwise) are universal as far as I know, and not made at the whim of the organisers, but because this is what the law says. Things can obviously be negotiated but AFAIK, by default the remixing artist willvget paid the mechanical royalties earned by their remix, but the publishing (ie. the royalties earned by the track it self, not just that version) remain with the remixed artist. Even if not officially a remix, if a track contains a recongnisable portion of someone else's work, you need that someone else's permission to release it. This is just my understanding, and may be imperfect as we've never been that involved in the remix game at all.