Protoculture played by... Armin Van Buuren

[Antares]

I agree with you antares, but here's the catch.

Everytime a release like Alien Jesus get released, ppl tend to bitch about how bad it is. And they're right, not because of the music, but why this release has been made in the first place. Is it really about musical evolution?

Check out Dali for example. I don't have nothing against her, cause I don't know her personally, but it's obvious (at least to me) that her album was made using the image-over-substance mainstream standards. She has a sexy pose in the cover, full singing with lyrics that no one gives a fuck and her lives are pop gigs, while she pretends to play keyboards.

Why such releases exist in the first place? Maybe because there's an audience for it?

Why there's an udience for it? Maybe because the full on scene (at least a part of it) has been commercialized? Isn't this why progressive has changed form psy influenced to housey-electro stuff?

 

I'm not talking about Protoculture! He's a talented guy that decided to go even more regular trance and I wish him luck.

But I find ironic that some people can defend an artist when he changes his style to more mainstream paths cause he's an artist and have a right to do it, when in a different thread bash the guy because he have gone cheesy full on. Yep, and I'm the narrow minded.

 

Yeah i partly agree with you, there must be some artists who release partly for the succes, maybe the money (allthough there isn't much money in psytrance unless you're called infected mushroom)..

BUT, there are still tons of people that party on the music, a lot of people who are made happy by the music, so frankly it doesn't matter to me for what reason the artist made this music..

And also, call me naïve, but i don't think an artist can make music he/she dislikes, just for the money (except maybe when there are millions involved). Take infected mushroom, they changed there style drasticley, having a lot of pop/rock influences, but i truly believe they like/love what they're making..

When i hear a release like Alien Jesus, well I deffinately don't like it (and that's a eufemism), and yeah i regret the fact that they made good music in the past, but you're never gonna hear me say: "their music is so crappy, people who listen to it must have their arse for their ears because it's so full of shit, they do it all for the money, the fame and the groupies, blablabla.."

I'd rather have them evolve towards a style i don't like than stand still in a style i do like (without being innovative)

[MAM015]

The real problem is that everyone is afraid from those commercial releases... I'm just ashamed that some people would tag those as Psychedelic music (which is in fact true).

In fact, Commercial releases tend to destroy the style because they are not much creative and attractive

 

Back in 95 there were no real borders to people's mind so Psychedelic was in fact an underground beautiful music because artists did create what they wanted in the first place (not what they should do to make money).

 

Now the only reason why IM shifted to the more Rock-Pop influence is to attract more audience, and therefore to make more Money: that's it, the bitter reality of this world, no one dare to speak of it, but everyone should ear money to live, right?

 

AND yes, everyone can make music he/she dislike as long as he/she copycat others work (ie the same bass sound and the same kick sound, redistributed via samples pack, the same noises etc), I remember the back in 95 the tracks were so different from each others that you can even remember the odds and the special "thing" about each one of them.

 

If you just ask yourself, why the old style attracted so much people, even Paul did some comp, and got heavily involved? Why

[Rotwang]

Now the only reason why IM shifted to the more Rock-Pop influence is to attract more audience, and therefore to make more Money:

 

How could you possibly know this? The reason that their new style makes them more money is that a lot of people like it, so it's hardly difficult to imagine that IM themselves like it too.

[MAM015]

You've just said it yourself, more people to like it=more money to make

[Antares]

The real problem is that everyone is afraid from those commercial releases... I'm just ashamed that some people would tag those as Psychedelic music (which is in fact true).

In fact, Commercial releases tend to destroy the style because they are not much creative and attractive

 

Back in 95 there were no real borders to people's mind so Psychedelic was in fact an underground beautiful music because artists did create what they wanted in the first place (not what they should do to make money).

 

Now the only reason why IM shifted to the more Rock-Pop influence is to attract more audience, and therefore to make more Money: that's it, the bitter reality of this world, no one dare to speak of it, but everyone should ear money to live, right?

 

AND yes, everyone can make music he/she dislike as long as he/she copycat others work (ie the same bass sound and the same kick sound, redistributed via samples pack, the same noises etc), I remember the back in 95 the tracks were so different from each others that you can even remember the odds and the special "thing" about each one of them.

 

If you just ask yourself, why the old style attracted so much people, even Paul did some comp, and got heavily involved? Why

 

No offence, but who are you to say that "commercial releases are not much creative and attractive"? That is your opinion, and taste, but not a fact. The fact that to you think "commercial" tracks all sound alike, and "non-commercial" stuff (like oldschool goa for example) sounds fresh and innovating, is just because it's your kind of music.. I hear people who listen to other music (that some may find commercial) say that all goa tracks sound the same, that it's just some random noise on a 4/4 beat... That's the same thing..

people need to broaden their horizons some more, and open up for more stuff... Wheiter it's "commercial", "underground"...

[Ormion]

No offence, but who are you to say that "commercial releases are not much creative and attractive"? That is your opinion, and taste, but not a fact. The fact that to you think "commercial" tracks all sound alike, and "non-commercial" stuff (like oldschool goa for example) sounds fresh and innovating, is just because it's your kind of music.. I hear people who listen to other music (that some may find commercial) say that all goa tracks sound the same, that it's just some random noise on a 4/4 beat... That's the same thing..

people need to broaden their horizons some more, and open up for more stuff... Wheiter it's "commercial", "underground"...

 

I think MAM015 means commercial releases inside the psy scene.

[MAM015]

I think MAM015 means commercial releases inside the psy scene.

 

Exactly,

I'm a hard Rock fan you know, Led Zeppelin, Peter Frampton, Metallica, Apocalyptica...

These guys aren't commercially successful (I mean when they started doing their music) but they did some great music, And I can hopefully recognize Great music when I "See" it....

[Basilisk]

It's easy to trash GMS and IM but are there any artists from within the psytrance scene who have "gone commercial" and retained underground credibility?

 

I nominate Ben Watkins

[@reyu]

It's easy to trash GMS and IM but are there any artists from within the psytrance scene who have "gone commercial" and retained underground credibility?

 

I nominate Ben Watkins

 

I admire Ben for doing his own thing and not following trends. The most important thing for me is the music itself, not how much it sells. IM's music doesn't interest me anymore, I saw them 2 years ago and it was horrible, at least for me it was. So it's pretty easy to bash them, yes. On a side note, I think Ezren didn't like it either judging from the look of his face, just an impression I got.

 

That whole underground/commercial thing is old news for me. What does it matter? I like what I like. I don't have to explain myself to anyone. Commercial snobs vs Underground snobs, two different sides of the same coin if you ask me. If people really dig psytrance they will look for the best stuff eventually. Well, I hope

[Ormion]

I'm not an underground snob, but when ppl bitch about a music genre has gone commercial they do have a point IMO.

The point is that every single music genre that has gone commercial more or less has lost a part of its original quality.

House, techno, lounge, idm, drum n bass, electro, hip hop, metal, jazz, hard rock you name it's here.

Every music genre purist will bitch about how songs that aim at 'commercial audience' is inferior.

Of course the big question is why the purists must be right and the mainstream listeners wrong. Well there's s theory about that.

'Mainstream audience' are not necessary music lovers. Mor like 'casual listeners'. They just listen to music, which is great, but it can end up really bad for the music.

 

Here is an example:

Some years ago Greece discovered uplifting. Or what they called it 'psychedelic trance'. The music became so popular that eventually everyone was listening to it. The more popular the music became, the more the quality was dropping. It ended up into tracks that even the 'mainstream audience' laughed with.

And guess what happen...

It died. As fast as it grew, it dissapeared. Suddenly no one cared about it anymore. Why?

It was obviously a trend. Most people never cared about the music. They liked it yes, but when a new trend appeared they abandoned it.

 

Sometimes it's better the music to be listened from those who actually like it. It may sound like narrowminded and selfish to some, but I agree with this opinion.

[Guest nectarios]

Here is an example:

Some years ago Greece discovered uplifting. Or what they called it 'psychedelic trance'. The music became so popular that eventually everyone was listening to it. The more popular the music became, the more the quality was dropping. It ended up into tracks that even the 'mainstream audience' laughed with.

And guess what happen...

It died. As fast as it grew, it dissapeared. Suddenly no one cared about it anymore. Why?

It was obviously a trend. Most people never cared about the music. They liked it yes, but when a new trend appeared they abandoned it.

 

Sometimes it's better the music to be listened from those who actually like it. It may sound like narrowminded and selfish to some, but I agree with this opinion.

 

Was uplifting ever good though? And since you were there, you should remember the audience that followed them Trancemedia and Re-load parties, the people that liked Cyan and Holymen and the like, they considered them selves as the true "underground" movement, at the time, not trendy followers of the new street fashion and music style.

The quality was always bad back then, for me them were the darkest years of psychedelic trance in Greece...Uplifitng and Goa Gill parties everywhere you looked...I seriously was baffled at how could people actually like tunes like Popeye! singing football team songs to it...but as you say, the music was listened by the ones who actually liked it....now an awful lot of them people with the fence style hair and kangaroo look, moved on to the darkpsy parties. Its the new underground music that is listened by teh people who actually like it.

 

/off topic.

[Ormion]

now an awful lot of them people with the fence style hair and kangaroo look, moved on to the darkpsy parties. Its the new underground music that is listened by teh people who actually like it.

 

/off topic.

 

you're kiding right?

All of my friends were listening to uplifting. My 15 yo cousins were listening to uplifiting. I was in the army there and EVERYONE in our wing was listening to uplifting.

None of them moved to darkpsy. Maybe a 1%?

I understand that you don't like darkpsy, but it's getting ridiculous.

[Jaszi]

But don't forget Moogwai - Viola guys which was a very nice goa track from 2000...

it's a 10 year old music and Armin Van Buuren made a remix for that

 

i know it's not psy but could be a good eurotrance

[Guest nectarios]

you're kiding right?

All of my friends were listening to uplifting. My 15 yo cousins were listening to uplifiting. I was in the army there and EVERYONE in our wing was listening to uplifting.

None of them moved to darkpsy. Maybe a 1%?

I understand that you don't like darkpsy, but it's getting ridiculous.

 

Let me re-phrase to make my self clear. A lot of the people that like darkpsy in Greece, and are of age, used to go to them Uplifting parties. Have you ever been to Polytexnioupoli parties?

And I do like some darkpsy, as you call it (there is a lot of dark psytrance I like that does not tick the darkpsy genre boxes). I think some Atriohm tunes are nice.

 

One more thing, do you like uplifting/nitzhonot trance?

[Ormion]

Let me re-phrase to make my self clear. A lot of the people that like darkpsy in Greece, and are of age, used to go to them Uplifting parties. Have you ever been to Polytexnioupoli parties?

And I do like some darkpsy, as you call it (there is a lot of dark psytrance I like that does not tick the darkpsy genre boxes). I think some Atriohm tunes are nice.

 

One more thing, do you like uplifting/nitzhonot trance?

 

I personally don't know not even ONE person who likes darkpsy and used to like uplifting/nitzhonot.

Apart from the partyspammers (ppl who go to every psy party: darkpsy, goa, full on, prog, nitzo without caring much about the music) I don't know anyone else.

In fact I can't understand how someone who used to listen to popeye melodies and the most simple music that exists (a kick, a bass and a sytnh) can go to a music that lacks melodies and is chaotic.

Again I'm not talking about the partyspammers. I don't consider those people as an audience to be honest.

 

Anyway too much off topic. I'm out.

[Hexfire]

The opposition of two extremes...

 

Things don't change... mentality neither. Like with any other case when we have two camps, two different parts in a competition, there seems to be no excuse when it comes to attempts of reconciliation.

 

It's been a mystery for me for years — why it isn't possible to perform a synthesis and try to follow both streams.

 

For many years I've been into both, mainstream and underground scenes and figured that these markers are extremely RELATIVE. There's a whole lot of examples of deep, profound, dark and intelligent trance in the mainstream scene (the type of music I'm into), as well as equal amount of flagrant trash in the so-called underground. When you have a clear vision of what you're finding fascinating in music, you can always recognize it anywhere, completely regardless of the genre.

 

What I'm finding sad in current situation is complete inflexibility when it comes to overseeing two scenes. Those who are into mainstream trance tend to never find their bearings in psytrance music, and the latter insist that the so-called mainstream trance is garbage by definition.

For years I've been a member of numerous communities that specialize in both, mainstream and underground movements (from Trance.nu (R.I.P.) to Psyreactor) and I haven't yet found a person who could equally appreciate regular and psychedelic trance, following both of them to equal extent and giving each its credit. I'm still asking myself: "why?". And I don't have any other answer, other than overly stereotypic way of thinking.

 

From the conviction that I've got, it's not about particular genre, but about particular mood, vibrations and "message" which can be found in music. It's not something so strictly attributed to "psytrance" or "epic trance". It's what can be found in both if you're a conscientious searcher.

 

Here we have a situation of crossing. And instead of re-considering it from the point of possible connection, people criticize it for getting out of control, when in fact it's a dim light of possible solution. Sad thing.

 

Not much can be said really... Expand your mind.

[MAM015]

:huh:

 

I dont follow you here, expend your Mind, means :Start making you own music, the one you like, or start listening to everything that pass under you finger, so that you can judge on< Or maybe start collecting and listening to everything?

 

I can't do that, I dont thing i can listen to something that i dont like just to make myself a psychedelic music lover

[Antares]

I'm not an underground snob, but when ppl bitch about a music genre has gone commercial they do have a point IMO.

The point is that every single music genre that has gone commercial more or less has lost a part of its original quality.

House, techno, lounge, idm, drum n bass, electro, hip hop, metal, jazz, hard rock you name it's here.

Every music genre purist will bitch about how songs that aim at 'commercial audience' is inferior.

Of course the big question is why the purists must be right and the mainstream listeners wrong. Well there's s theory about that.

'Mainstream audience' are not necessary music lovers. Mor like 'casual listeners'. They just listen to music, which is great, but it can end up really bad for the music.

 

Again, you can't just say that, it's personal and has to do with taste. When a genre goes 'commericial', a lot of the original listeners think it loses quality, because the genre changes. But at the same time a lot of people who didn't liked the genre when it was 'underground' now listen to it and like it.

Take dubstep for instance. in the beginning it was underground, now the only ones who never heard of it live in a cave. A lot of people who liked it in the beginning now don't, and vice versa. So who's right? The ones that used to listen to it, and say it loses quality, or the new listeners who think the old stuff is crap?

[Ormion]

Again, you can't just say that, it's personal and has to do with taste. When a genre goes 'commericial', a lot of the original listeners think it loses quality, because the genre changes. But at the same time a lot of people who didn't liked the genre when it was 'underground' now listen to it and like it.

Take dubstep for instance. in the beginning it was underground, now the only ones who never heard of it live in a cave. A lot of people who liked it in the beginning now don't, and vice versa. So who's right? The ones that used to listen to it, and say it loses quality, or the new listeners who think the old stuff is crap?

 

I don't know it and this is why I wrote:

Of course the big question is why the purists must be right and the mainstream listeners wrong.

I'm not saying that I'm right and the people who listen to Alien Jesus wrong.

My theory is that a big part of the 'mainstream audience' listen to the music cause it's hot and it's a matter of time before they leave it for the next trend.

just like dubstep. Dubstep is really hot in greece today. Every dubstep party is filled with teens that just discovered it. The same teens that they gonna move to the next hot thing after the hype dies.

And there are people like Ov3rdose who actually started listening to dubstep, cause they simply like it.

[Antares]

I don't know it and this is why I wrote:

 

I'm not saying that I'm right and the people who listen to Alien Jesus wrong.

My theory is that a big part of the 'mainstream audience' listen to the music cause it's hot and it's a matter of time before they leave it for the next trend.

just like dubstep. Dubstep is really hot in greece today. Every dubstep party is filled with teens that just discovered it. The same teens that they gonna move to the next hot thing after the hype dies.

And there are people like Ov3rdose who actually started listening to dubstep, cause they simply like it.

 

Sorry, i didn't read that, i totally agree

[MAM015]

I've checked the protoculture track :SILVER,

Man it's not that bad, it might even land on the top ten best trance this year (with a little push from uncle Armin )

[Hels]

Psytrancers are so judgmental. Do some more acid or something.

[Padmapani]

Psytrancers are so judgmental. Do some more acid or something.

 

no amount of acid could make me appreciate alien jesus.

 

@ormion

why did you have to mention alien jesus? i had to look it up and was not prepared for something that awful

btw: i agree with your pov.

[protoculture]

Found this thread by accident... Usually I shy away from forums and these threads, but this seems to be a pretty intelligent discussion as far as some of the forums go so thought I'd post a response from my side.

 

First off, yes I've been changing my style as of late, and yes I suppose it does fall into the category of trance rather than psy and I suppose you can classify it as more "commercial" if you want. Personally, I've had a revelation in the past few months in that I really couldn't care less about genres anymore. I've been heading this way for some time now, you can hear it on the last album as well which was kind of a stepping stone for me from what I was doing in the psy scene to what I'm doing now. Really, the reason for this is I've just not been inspired by the music coming out that's labeled as psy these days... to put things in perspective, it took me three years to put together "Love Technology" and in the last 6 months since that release I've managed to churn out 15 new tracks and remixes simply because I'm being more honest and true to what I feel is what I should be doing. Being in a creative line of work, you have to realize that forcing yourself to do something your'e simply not that into is really shooting yourself in the foot. It was never a conscious decision to "sell out"... although I will admit there are a lot of benefits of working on more "commercial" releases... but rather I just needed to move on to something new. Funny thing is, if I'd gone ahead and done an album just like "refractions" or "circadians" people would have slated me for not evolving as a musician.

 

The whole thing with Armin is just an added bonus... his music might not be to the tastes of most underground fans, but he didn't get to the top by being shit. He's done wonders for me by playing my music on ASOT (amongst others like Tiesto, Ferry Corsten, Paul van Dyk, Max Graham, John 00 Fleming, Above and Beyond, and Christopher Laurence who have also been supporting my tracks on their shows and at their gigs) and you'd be an idiot to turn down exposure like that... his radio show has a listener base of around 3 million a week and its an honour to bee considered good enough to be a part of that.

 

As for doing this for money... this is something most people never understand. Even working with Armada, while I'm making more than I was, if I was in this for the money, I would have become a doctor or a lawyer. Working as a professional dj/producer is never easy, but it is one of the most rewarding jobs in the world, but its not a cash cow. Not by a long shot. Sure the money is important, I've got a family and bills to pay just like everyone of you... but it can't be the driving force behind doing this.

 

I've been so happy lately doing this as it just feels right for me at the moment. I'm aware some people feel like they've had their toes stepped on when their beloved scene changes, but hey... its not the first time its happened. The psy scene has gone through various phases in the 10 years I've been involved in it. Funny though, its often the younger generation that are most vocal about it... Psy has had more in common with Trance over the years than most people will like to admit to. Anyways, I just thought I'd add my two cents so you could hear it from the horses mouth.

 

Thanks guys

Nate Protoculture

[Basilisk]

Class act!