Mixing Goa/Psy

[Guest r2d2]

I gotta admit mixing Goa/Psy (I'm talking layered, not minimal side of it) is not a very easy task but I think it gets even harder to beatmatch it if you use turntables.

 

I mean when I spin CD's I find the Cue point and with one press of a button can get back to it easily and start all over again, but with turntables I pretty much usualy have only one chance to drop the track at the right moment and at the right speed. In other words I think turntables require much more "mixing on the fly" skills than CD players.

 

 

I don't wanna even get into mixing records and CD's. Trying to monitor a CD player that's got much stronger signal and turntable with much weaker one at the same time in the earphones is hard. I't easy to hear the CD but not the vinyl.

 

Maybe this is why Psy is more and more CD only genre (of course coupled with more costly vinyl pressing/making/distributing).

[Guest kingdok]

'Couldn't agree more, r2d2.

 

In fact, now that I'm used to my CD decks, going back to turntable mixing (which I was never overly fond of) feels so...clumsy. I'm all about the cue points now. And even though the BPM counters aren't always spot-on, they sure get you in the precise neighborhood fast. The constant rewinding you're forced to do with turntables is, as far as I can tell, counterproductive. The time you waste doing that could be better spent getting your beats matched up perfectly (or as close as possible) and dropping 'em at just the right time. One little fumble on a turntable could bump your mix back more than a couple measures. [More experienced DJs may feel free to rip into everything I just said. I've only been doing this a couple years, and haven't even spun at a party yet:(]

 

I kinda like the way the psy community is more compilation/album-centric. It makes getting tracks on CD a lot easier, with the added bonus of getting them in BULK (vs. paying $10 for a two-track 12"). Try doing that with the latest drum'n'bass cuts. It's just not happening.

 

Have you uploaded any of your mixes? As a DJ-in-training I always love hearing other people's methods.

 

My latest mixes are all here...

 

http://www.autodestruct.com/djvariant.htm

[Guest dj poliisi]

i think that vinyls are, in a way, even easier to play than cds because you get to touch those directly and that way fully control the speed of the record spinning. and what you said about the cue-points. those are on the vinyl also. look at the grooves of your record. doesn't it show a little differece between the noisy parts (parts with beat and bassline) and the more quiet parts?

 

vinyl mixing is fun, though the quality of vinyls have come down so much that you gotta buy most releases on cd.

[Guest Bor]

Well, both have their advantages and disadvantages. With cd's it's easier to pitch and cue, but with vinyl you have more direct control.

 

And indeed, vinyl mixing is much more fun. It even look cooler! ;-)

[Guest Duodenum]

yeah, vinyl is far superior in most respects. the problem is that many releases have crappy sound quality- some of my psy LPs have poor loudness, or one channel is louder than the other!! you can compensate with the gains and L/R balance, but CDs just get rid of this whole problem. i think 1200s are far more accurate than any CD deck i have used, and you can really lock tracks together in the mix. with CDs, it seems that the digital pitch slider doesn't have the same resolution.

 

but CDs sound better on a huge system IMO. the clarity is awesome for psytrance. plus, you can bring huge amounts of music with very little weight. i just wish you could "read" the surface like vinyl. very few CD decks provide waveforms to mix by, so you often get surprised by little breaks.

 

if you're a CD advocate, you may as well try MP3 mixing. there's a product called Traktor DJ (part of the new Final Scratch as well) that allows you to output sound from your PC (you need 2 souncards for two stereo sources) to your mixes. then you just set up the keyboard to cue, pitch up/down, etc.. just make sure you rip your CDs at high bitrates.

 

a few comments for DINGDOK: first, DnB has HEAPS of compilations. that's how i built my small collection. second, NEVER rely on BPM counters. learn to mix without them, using pitch blending, and you can apply that skill to every turntable and CD deck in existence. third, why do you rewind so much with vinyl? you just skip the needle back after mentally noting where the first beat is.

 

i think the main problem is that vinyl used to separate devoted DJs from the masses of wannabes. vinyl is expensive, and requires a certain dedication. it's also heavy. and you need to understand how to balance and handle your decks. now that digital tech is taking over, every one can put out a mix CD (Traktor will even beatmatch for you!). so the real DJs get lost in a swamp of beginners. that's what i find sad.

[Guest Duodenum]

yeah, vinyl is far superior in most respects. the problem is that many releases have crappy sound quality- some of my psy LPs have poor loudness, or one channel is louder than the other!! you can compensate with the gains and L/R balance, but CDs just get rid of this whole problem. i think 1200s are far more accurate than any CD deck i have used, and you can really lock tracks together in the mix. with CDs, it seems that the digital pitch slider doesn't have the same resolution.

 

but CDs sound better on a huge system IMO. the clarity is awesome for psytrance. plus, you can bring huge amounts of music with very little weight. i just wish you could "read" the surface like vinyl. very few CD decks provide waveforms to mix by, so you often get surprised by little breaks.

 

if you're a CD advocate, you may as well try MP3 mixing. there's a product called Traktor DJ (part of the new Final Scratch as well) that allows you to output sound from your PC (you need 2 souncards for two stereo sources) to your mixes. then you just set up the keyboard to cue, pitch up/down, etc.. just make sure you rip your CDs at high bitrates.

 

a few comments for DINGDOK: first, DnB has HEAPS of compilations. that's how i built my small collection. second, NEVER rely on BPM counters. learn to mix without them, using pitch blending, and you can apply that skill to every turntable and CD deck in existence. third, why do you rewind so much with vinyl? you just skip the needle back after mentally noting where the first beat is.

 

i think the main problem is that vinyl used to separate devoted DJs from the masses of wannabes. vinyl is expensive, and requires a certain dedication. it's also heavy. and you need to understand how to balance and handle your decks. now that digital tech is taking over, every one can put out a mix CD (Traktor will even beatmatch for you!). so the real DJs get lost in a swamp of beginners. that's what i find sad.

[Guest Duodenum]

sorry- board is having problems

[Guest kingdok]

'Nothing sad about beginners. Even the pros started somewhere. And CD decks aren't exactly cheap, so I wouldn't say there's an unfair advantage there. Even so, it's funny watching the "real" DJs sweat as their turntables become more and more obsolete. They're useful if you're scratching and doing tricks (like in hip hop) but you'd better not be caught doing that in a psy set

 

re : BPM counters // Um...my BPM counters are pretty accurate when I'm mixing psy. 'Gotta make fine adjustments from time to time, but to say you can't rely on them is an insult to Pioneer/Denon/whoever for putting them on there in the first place. They're not perfect, but they serve their purpose, and can be a vital time-saver.

 

re : rewinding // Yeah, I place the needle back where I found it, but it's always awkward going back to it manually, rewinding to just the right spot, holding the record in place like a dumbass until the time comes to mix in, and releasing it. Some vinyl pressings are so shitty that the needle will skip backward while I'm doing this, and I then have to start all over again, hoping the same shit won't happen twice. Irritating.

 

re : dnb // D'n'b does indeed have lots of compilations, but most of 'em are mixed, and even the tracks that get featured on comps are out on wax months and months in advance. This is not true of psy. That's what I meant.

[Guest Duodenum]

'Nothing sad about beginners. Even the pros started somewhere. And CD decks aren't exactly cheap, so I wouldn't say there's an unfair advantage there. Even so, it's funny watching the "real" DJs sweat as their turntables become more and more obsolete. They're useful if you're scratching and doing tricks (like in hip hop) but you'd better not be caught doing that in a psy set :)"

 

i never wrote that beginners are sad, just that anyone can download Traktor now and have a mix done quickly. most listeners don't know enough about mixing to know when a DJ is good or bad, so they'll be satisfied with a robo-mixed set. THAT is sad. but then again, technology progresses whether we like it or not....

 

"re : BPM counters // Um...my BPM counters are pretty accurate when I'm mixing psy. 'Gotta make fine adjustments from time to time, but to say you can't rely on them is an insult to Pioneer/Denon/whoever for putting them on there in the first place. They're not perfect, but they serve their purpose, and can be a vital time-saver."

 

again, a bit of a comprehension problem. i wrote that you *shouldn't* rely on them to beatmatch. good DJs can match tracks in a couple bars, and can use the skills on just about any turntable (CD or vinyl). not everything has a BPM counter. i have a CD deck and Traktor, and i have used the Pioneer 700 and 1000s, and i know how this stuff works.

 

"re : rewinding // Yeah, I place the needle back where I found it, but it's always awkward going back to it manually, rewinding to just the right spot, holding the record in place like a dumbass until the time comes to mix in, and releasing it. Some vinyl pressings are so shitty that the needle will skip backward while I'm doing this, and I then have to start all over again, hoping the same shit won't happen twice. Irritating."

 

i WILL agree with you here. i hate it when i'm holding a warped track, and just as i go to drop it...skip. i think cueing is THE best thing about CD decks, followed by the sound clarity.

 

"re : dnb // D'n'b does indeed have lots of compilations, but most of 'em are mixed, and even the tracks that get featured on comps are out on wax months and months in advance. This is not true of psy. That's what I meant."

 

eh? haven't you seen the huge DnB boxsets that are always in shops? those are multi-record, unmixed sets. even better, they don't cram two tracks on one side. most of them have one track per side, so loudness is usually OK.

 

the bottom line is that CDs WILL take over the psy scene. my problem is that i often hear awkward mixing from all-CD jocks. but that may be my problem with psy in general, since a lot of tracks have really weird structures. i imagine CDs are great for the progressive sound

[Guest kingdok]

Sorry to have sounded bitchy, Duodenum. You've got some good points as well. I'm just bitter that I'm not more proficient with my 1200s after so much grueling practice

 

Getting back to my question for R2, can anyone recommend a really well-done, inspirational psy set?

 

Here's a guy who's got his act together...

 

http://www.saikosounds.com/english/djmixes...aimz_112002.asp

 

...and he's probaby one of the nicest, most knowelegable/eloquent people who frequents this site, too.

[Guest kingdok]

"knowledgeable" even

[Guest r2d2]

Sorry Kingdok I don't have any good online mixes I could reccomend you. Usually, if the stuff is mixed well I dont like the track selection (too simplistic/minimal).

 

Hey maybe you could tell me how to digitally record one of my mixes. I know I basically need to connect my stereo and sound card, but I'm not too sure what kind of cord I need, what's the best program and where to find it etc etc. I know I should know this stuff by now but I've bee too damn lazy

 

Now that you mention BPM counters and stuff there's a turntable that has it.

Check it out

 

 

It even has Key lock wich will take care of the pitch corrections when you alter the speed. Only problem is, it's not very cheap.

[Tatsu]

Very interesting discussion here going on about the CD/vinyl mixing thing. My opinion is changing about the medium to use... I tried for days to mix a nice MiniDisc with trance vinyls (yes, commercial trance, not psy) but i never succeeded. Even using a beatcounter. Normally trance is much easier to mix for me than psy because it has less layers than full-on psy but this time there was no way of doing it. Then I got fed up, took some new psy CDs and mixed a very nice MD (very nice for my DJ-leve I mean... ;-) ) on the first try. Since then I'm in love with my CDJs... Of course I'll still buy vinyls but in my opinion the best is mixing CDs and vinyls, so you have the most options of tracks to get (and even more money to spend). Maybe I will also buy some new vinyl decks when I have some money. The ones I have now are so cheap, I guess that's why it is so difficult to mix vinyls.

 

About the beatcounter: I know that it is considered cheating if you use one. But the one I have is very accurate, it never lets me down. And I'm just a bedroom DJ, so why not let me have some fun with my music. I don't want to spend hours and hours with my mixing and still getting nowwhere.

[Guest dj poliisi]

about those bpm counters: so far every dj who has said to me that rely on those, haven't had the skill to really beat match, just find those two songs in about same speed so when you change in a part that doesn't contain any beats or bassline , it doesn't really jump to dancers ears, but I wouldn't call it beat matching myself.

 

And I totally agree with you, duodenum about that cd's are easier to use for newbies. It's also a sad fact that it allows people to easily copy their music illegaly to parties and play burned cd's. Though now it's easier for smaller artists to make a dj promo

[Guest chris]

@duodenum:

 

" i never wrote that beginners are sad, just that anyone can download Traktor now and have a mix done quickly. most listeners don't know enough about mixing to know when a DJ is good or bad, so they'll be satisfied with a robo-mixed set"

 

have you ever tried traktor for yourself? how come that all the so called "prof. DJ's" are thinking that mixing with traktor is robo mixing? do you think that with traktor mixes are made by the program itself? go back, download it again, try it. If you are an experienced CD DJ you will get into it very quickly, cause it works similar than to mix with CDJs. but not more or less automated. within this software you have a lot of features for expanding your creativity but it doesn't teach you to mix as well as it doesn't mix for you.

 

I started mixing with traktor 1,5 years ago, and it took me month to learn how to mix. And I'm far away to say I'm a prof. now. O.k. you could mention maybe I have not enough talent, but that's something others should judge.

 

what is really going on my nerves is, that I have to discuss with CD DJ's the same way they formerly had to discuss with turntable DJ's some years ago.

 

-This is not DJing, cause it's not really hands on

-The sound is shit, not warm and deep enough

-It's to easy to get the actual bpm shown

etc.

 

Do you realize something?

 

I had a gig 3 weeks ago, it was a good one I was very happy with my perfomance. guess what other DJ's said to me? Nothing, they said nothing!!! they ignored me because as a Traktor DJ it was not worth talking to me. They gave me the feeling I should piss off. Nice one ehhh?

 

Remember about this in 2 or 3 years when 30-50% of all Dj's are spinning with their Laptops and hardware controllers.

 

Chris

[Guest chris]

@duodenum:

 

" i never wrote that beginners are sad, just that anyone can download Traktor now and have a mix done quickly. most listeners don't know enough about mixing to know when a DJ is good or bad, so they'll be satisfied with a robo-mixed set"

 

have you ever tried traktor for yourself? how come that all the so called "prof. DJ's" are thinking that mixing with traktor is robo mixing? do you think that with traktor mixes are made by the program itself? go back, download it again, try it. If you are an experienced CD DJ you will get into it very quickly, cause it works similar than to mix with CDJs. but not more or less automated. within this software you have a lot of features for expanding your creativity but it doesn't teach you to mix as well as it doesn't mix for you.

 

I started mixing with traktor 1,5 years ago, and it took me month to learn how to mix. And I'm far away to say I'm a prof. now. O.k. you could mention maybe I have not enough talent, but that's something others should judge.

 

what is really going on my nerves is, that I have to discuss with CD DJ's the same way they formerly had to discuss with turntable DJ's some years ago.

 

-This is not DJing, cause it's not really hands on

-The sound is shit, not warm and deep enough

-It's to easy to get the actual bpm shown

etc.

 

Do you realize something?

 

I had a gig 3 weeks ago, it was a good one I was very happy with my perfomance. guess what other DJ's said to me? Nothing, they said nothing!!! they ignored me because as a Traktor DJ it was not worth talking to me. They gave me the feeling I should piss off. Nice one ehhh?

 

Remember about this in 2 or 3 years when 30-50% of all Dj's are spinning with their Laptops and hardware controllers.

 

Chris

[Guest djpoliisi]

chris: other dj's didn't speak to you or you didn't speak to other dj's?

 

and actually the bpm counter and the sync tool in traktor neither work as well as everyone is describing. the bpm counter is inaccurate though it gives and accurate bpm it aint still the same though both meter show exactly the same. The sync tool doesn't also work as it is supposed to (or how i guess it's supposed to) It doesn't beat match though you might think so.

 

And I don't believe that (at least Traktor) dj software will be as used as cd/vinyl because mp3's aren't as good quality as a real recording media. And if you want to dump your cds in to hard disk it would mean a .wav format which needs so much room that for a set you would have to have at least 2 hard drives

[Guest chris]

@djpoliisi:

 

they ignored me, although I tried to get in contact :-(

 

I don't care about the bpm counter and the automatic beat matching (this used to be crap but should have improved with the latest update btw.). I set beat grids for all my tracks and I have the most appropiate bpm one can have (1/100). If prepared that way the sync is working almost perfect (just pitching a little bit sometimes).

 

I rip all my CD's in *WAV files. So sound quality is equal to CD's. Yes you need then a big storage. I'm using an external one, which is is connected via USB. When I'm spinning I carry about 200-300 tracks on my system. Pretty enough for a long set ;-)

 

Chris

[Guest dj poliisi]

hmm...

 

so you pitch those tracks in home already and set beat grids. Then you claim to be a dj. What part of your track switching is actually djing (no offense) because if you have all songs already pitched and you just switch them and saying that you're a dj like those guys who play from vinyls/cds no wonder they didn't appreciate you that much. I dont want to be rude here but that's just what I formely in this topic said about being a human jukebox if you ain't doing the live there.

 

If I understood something wrong I'm sorry about accusations but if I'm correct I recommend you to buy a cd deck and try real djing.

 

and btw I guess no one ain't such a talent that he can learn mixing in a month. dunno. who am i to judge who is djing who's not. just my clear opinions about playing

[Guest Duodenum]

i'm not saying people that use Traktor aren't DJs. in fact, i really LIKE using it myself, and i want to get a dual soundcard system so i can mix MP3s together. but i just don't think the sync features require much skill. as i stated before, most listeners don't know good mixing when they hear it, so you could just slap some MP3s together with quick transitions, and they would never know.

 

but maybe the point of being a DJ is to please the crowd, so it doesn't really matter if you're very skilled on turntables.

 

i just hate DJ worship, especially when the DJ isn't really doing anything special. i'm worried that the scene will become crowded with people who stare at a PC screen and do bland MP3 mixing.

 

just curious- can you encode MP3s at high enough bitrates to sound good on huge sound systems? i know some big names like Hawtin are using Final Scratch, but i'm not sure if they play WAVs or MP3s....?

 

i think it's really cool that you have embraced a new technology, but surely you can understand how "oldschool" DJs would be mad if someone like you becomes more reconized than them. some people have spent years perfecting beatmatching and mixing.

[Guest Duodenum]

and one more thing-

 

i have one of those Numark TTX1s at home, and they are NOT as good as you may think. i actually sold my 1200s to a friend, and "upgraded" to two TTX1s when they released. i only opened one TTX1 (to test it), and returned the other. now i have 1200s again, with one TTX1 on the third channel.

 

pros:

 

-very nice-looking

-rarely skips, even with heavy vibration

-interchangeable button/pitch units and tonearms

-removable audio cables, better sound than 1200s

-removable stylus light

-huge pitch range

 

cons:

 

-key lock does NOT work well. it starts to create an echo effect very quickly, so it's basically worthless.

-construction of deck isn't perfect.

-no dust cover

-pitch isn't as accurate as 1200, maybe because it's digital?

[Guest Chris]

@dj polisi

 

dude you got me wrong totally: in setting up beat grids for every track I'm checking out and saving the most detailed information about the track in advance (e.g. bpm value of 140,52 bpm) but nothing more. Let's say I'm manually checking out in advance the bpm of a track.

 

The rest is the same thing you are doing with CDJ's. Taking two tracks checking out the best transition points, setting up loops if wished, checking and hearing whether beats are matching and using pitch bend if it's not 100% accurate. But within setting up beat grids in advance you can be sure that traktor won't give you wrong information in calculating the bpm's automatically. That's why the sync doesn't work properly when using automated calculated bpms. In this terms, I mentioned it already, traktor is not the best soft.

 

 

@Duodenum

 

"so you could just slap some MP3s together with quick transitions, and they would never know"

 

Sorry I have to disagree again. It's not that easy, not more easy then doing the same thing with a traditional setup

 

But on the other hand you have some good points. As it is nowadays very easy to access (cracked) software and mp3s there are a lot of so called DJ's out there spinning with stolen software and stolen tracks. maybe these guys are destroying something which could enrich the scene.

 

 

You question about the bitrate: I don't know what the other's are doing, I suppose they are using mp3's in 192, I prefer original WAV's

 

Chris

[Guest r2d2]

Duodenum I didn't notice this Key lock echo you were talking about while using TTX-1. I have no idea why you had that problem. There's some kind of switch at the bottom part of the turntable that you have to set to "digital" or "line" (can't remember execty what it says). In order for Key lock to work you need to switch it to appropriate setting. I'm pretty sure you did, but just in case you didn't I thought I'd remind you.

 

I don't know what you exactly mean by construction, but I think this is actually TTX's advantage. It is rock solid and layered with all kinds of stuff. It is heavy as hell (somethinkg like 13 Kg) and if that's what you meant I hear you 100%.

 

One thing I'm not totally crazy about is BPM counter. It takes way too long to show the accurate BPM, and I'm not 100% convinced that was accurate at all. That's the biggest downside for TTX-1 but it's not huge since I wouldn't use it much anyways.

 

 

1200's are excellent and noone will dispute that, but I think compared to today's turntables they don't have enough power. Their torque is not even comparable to the latest Stanton ST-150 or Numark TTX-1. The are not even remotely close and that's a major disadvantage. I think in today's competitive market they are overpriced (but not overhyped because they've proven thay can last looong.)

 

 

I wonder if anyone used Stanton ST-150. I bet those are nice too.

[Guest djpoliisi]

chris: but what there's left to do to dj if song bpms have already been counted. IMO the best part of djing is do it fully live. Using your ears instead of technical equipment. Anyone can push play and pitch bend buttons when the beat is already matched.

[Guest chris]

djpoliisi: what about cd's or records where the bpm value is printed on the label? do you see any difference in what I'm doing?

 

second how do you think I'm using bitch bend without my ears? checking with my feets?

 

If I'm saving time in finding the right and beat matched transition points pretty fast, why not using this time to be more creative? bringing in loops to enrich the actual track, working on my kaoss pad to enrich the sound etc.

 

no offense, everybody has it's own way to do things, my way seems not to be the right way (not yet), but I don't care. let's wait what the future will bring and then let's start to discuss again.

 

Chris