Another daft darkpsy argument

[Rotwang]

Yes he did right here:

 

Quite right, my mistake.

[Guest nectarios]

I don't, that's why I asked.

The reasons I said I won't post an example because I hoped you know what glitches are in music, are;

1) I had the impression that we are having a basic level of understanding of what people do in their studios in order to achieve certain results, glitches being one of them. Since we are talking about darkpsy and regardless of whether it is your favorite style of music or not, the way you reffer to people who think darkpsy is random, had me thininking that you also, at least, have a basic understanding of certain ways producers work in a studio to make certain aspects of it. I mean even if you are not a producer, but an avid listener who understands what he is listening, you would at least know of what a glitch/stutter is, so it would be a waste of time for me to simply state the obvious.

 

2) You actually don't know what glitches are and we've had 6+ pages of a waste of a thread where you express your discomfort (for lack of a better word) to people who say darkpsy is random, over and over again, although you are the one who started this thread

From my point of view we've had a long anal argument about semantics and what the word "random" really means, yet you say you do not know what glitches are and how they are made, which is the real argument that some people use when they say darkpsy is random.

For the record, I do not think glitches are random, especially when one does not use glitch plug ins to create them. Even when they do, the software takes a string of audio input, chops it up into tight musical intervals and re-arranges it in random sequences, yet the result is not random, as however complex it sounds, it is always in sync at some tight musicall interval of the tempo. Something a computer does with ease in real time, yet it would take an awful lot of time for a human, to do "maunaly", involving extermely tedious audio slicing and triggering.

 

OK, thanks. Nectarios: perhaps I misunderstood the point of your reply to Time_Trap, but I'm not hearing anything random about the sounds that feature in the track Elysium posted - it all sounds like it was quite meticulously programmed (the bouncing ball sounds, for example, are timed using the partial sums of a geometric series).

 

 

Actually, upon rereading your earlier post I suppose that that was the whole point you were trying to make. But then I'm not sure what the relevance to Time_Trap's post was, since presumably he wasn't referring to stuff like that when he wrote that Aphex Twin can be random at times.

 

Its not random, its in sync, as I said above. I do not know what Time trap meant when he said that Aphex Twin's music sounds random at times, I simply addressed, probably THE most important and instantly reckognisable aspect of his work and that there was nothing random about it.

Aphex's tedious programming is what an awful lot of people praise him for and what an awful lot of people acknoledge him for (all the people in my audio tech classes when I studied in my university during my UK years and all the dance music producers and avid listeners that I met during my time in the UK actually).

That aspect of aphex's work had such an impact on the dance world, on both the listeners and the producers, that software developers came up with something to emulate the extemely tedious work he did with hardware samplers and sequencers, with a few clicks.

This kind of software is used heavily in the darkpsy scene, and (correct me if I am wrong) a lot of people think of darkpsy as the intrinsically complex stuff, not (just) the dark by definition. Like I said, I do not know whether psykovsky uses such software, but this software creates all the intrinsically complex stuff, random in sequence (yet in sync) for you, as you feed in a string of audio and then you get re-arranged brilliance of complex patterns that some people brand as genious...yet the "genious" behind it, only clicked on a couple of tabs/buttons....obviously you could argue that one needs to be a genious to choose the "good" bits, but I would strongly disagree.

 

Peace out.

[Guest nectarios]

That you only listen to Goa or got interested in the genre through Goa would be a problem in two ways :

 

1) Most of the Goa trance purists i have interacted with IRL feel the entire psychedelic movement was started by Goa trance and somehow feel darkpsy is an evil extension of the genre , meant for people who are inherently frustrated with life , have quarter life angst and cannot enjoy the Goa vibe for what it is. This is my opinion or my perception through my interaction with Goa trance people over the years

 

...Correct me if I am wrong

 

I started going to parties and buying psy-trance records in 1994. I can definitely say that Goa trance was there years before what people call darkpsy today, came along.

Not going to go into who started the psychedelic movement as it could well be some guy/woman in a cave when both men and women had facial hair.

 

Peace out.

[Sideffect...]

Rotwang I don't think you are capable of being a mod and should quit doing it

for the following reasons:

 

1) You are willing to go reduce yourself to low levels of bigotry just to try teach someone a lesson:

 

2) You are arrogant by your own admission

 

 

3) You are willing to resort to personal attacks and call people "fucks" just because they call the music you like "incoherent/random"

 

 

4) You threaten Elysium, a guy you clearly don't like, even though he did not cross any lines. He was voicing his disagreement (however right or wrong) with Tatsu

in a civil manner without any personal insults. Can't help but think you have a personal vendetta against him from your previous exchanges with him.

 

5) I think you are hypocritical for portraying yourself and your darkpsy friends as respectful to other genres, yet you are dead silent on

exotic's post "Goa trance people only listen to Goa and as a result have become narrow-minded to the extent that they feel no other genre of music can come close to feelings of extacy, oneness and joy it can bring."

He not only generalizes about Goa trance as music, he does so about people who listen to it. If you were that sensitive for me calling Darkpsy "incoherent/random" what would you then say

if I called people who like Darkpsy narrow minded?

 

Not only were you silent on that exotic's comment, but you proceed to defend him when he asks for your help:

 

 

 

 

I find that very hypocritical and biased.......

 

I think you should quit or be relieved of the mod duties. I believe it's too much of a challenge for you to handle.

 

You should PM this kind of stuff, I was reading this topic to debate darkpsy, not your drama!

 

Respect!

 

its challenging and intelligent.

 

From all sub genres I like dark the least, but you are right. Sometimes It is what It is apparently....

[Drosophila]

You should PM this kind of stuff, I was reading this topic to debate darkpsy, not your drama!

Respect!

 

+1 and if you really want to have your drama in the open, there is thread to do this in:

 

http://www.psynews.o...out-moderation/

 

 

Edit: were it has been moved to now.. please use this thread for moderation complains in the future.

[Sideffect...]

+1 and if you really want to have your drama in the open, there is thread to do this in:

 

http://www.psynews.o...out-moderation/

 

Indeed!

[exotic]

5) I think you are hypocritical for portraying yourself and your darkpsy friends as respectful to other genres, yet you are dead silent on

exotic's post "Goa trance people only listen to Goa and as a result have become narrow-minded to the extent that they feel no other genre of music can come close to feelings of extacy, oneness and joy it can bring."

He not only generalizes about Goa trance as music, he does so about people who listen to it. If you were that sensitive for me calling Darkpsy "incoherent/random" what would you then say

if I called people who like Darkpsy narrow minded?

 

Not only were you silent on that exotic's comment, but you proceed to defend him when he asks for your help:

 

 

Sorry I forgot to add IMO like i did in the first part of my post. Just the same mistake you made while making random statements about dark psy.

 

When i said "Rotwang your turn" I was being serious and not asking him to defend me because I found Proycon's post quite funny actually for which I had no reply hence wanted a moderator to handle an otherwise inappropriate , cheap and downright douchebaggish post. Calling darkpsy fans psychotic isnt the most clever thing to do , it might get you into deep trouble with the Satan worshipers because if they get a whiff of this they wont spare an opportunity to cast evil spells on you for downgrading them from devout to neurotic .

 

 

I started going to parties and buying psy-trance records in 1994. I can definitely say that Goa trance was there years before what people call darkpsy today, came along.

Not going to go into who started the psychedelic movement as it could well be some guy/woman in a cave when both men and women had facial hair.

 

Peace out.

 

I've seen you dont waste any time or opportunity in claiming just like Elysium that you were partying to Goa trance before Goa Gil was mixing DAT tapes at Anjuna beach. Its a pretty popular admission of yours not only here but in Isratrance as well and it will serve you and Elysium better to not have this statement on repeat everywhere you go . So you were there in 1994 ? Big deal. Get over it, really.

 

By saying "Goa trance fans feel..." i wasn't saying it is not true or unsubstantiated, Goa trance truly started the scene and it was mean to highlight the fact that goa trance folks have a false sense of better taste in music just because it came before everything , if you didnt read between the lines.

[Drosophila]

By saying "Goa trance fans feel..." i wasn't saying it is not true or unsubstantiated, Goa trance truly started the scene and it was mean to highlight the fact that goa trance folks have a false sense of better taste in music just because it came before everything , if you didnt read between the lines.

 

Well I really like Goa trance (and other forms of old school psy-trance) and have from early on as well, but I still like (some) darkspsy and especially forest trance, some psychedelic progressive, Suomi Soundi, so on and so forth. I mean what you state is truly as generalizing as any thing you complain about (I didn't quote you here but I think you know what I mean). I guess what you try to say is that some "goa trance elitists" have the opinion that you describe, otherwise it is pretty much non-sense!?

[reger]

Ok, guys, could someone sum up this thread, what are folks arguing about?

[exotic]

Well I really like Goa trance (and other forms of old school psy-trance) and have from early on as well, but I still like (some) darkspsy and especially forest trance, some psychedelic progressive, Suomi Soundi, so on and so forth. I mean what you state is truly as generalizing as any thing you complain about (I didn't quote you here but I think you know what I mean). I guess what you try to say is that some "goa trance elitists" have the opinion that you describe, otherwise it is pretty much non-sense!?

 

Ok if you want to put it that way. Let me tell you i love everything that psychedelic has to offer. You could call me an allrounder as far as listening to psychedelic with all its sub-genres are concerned. I love goa trance , but i see some people over the years have that snobbish attitude that goa trance is the purist form of trance and everything else having drawn from it in bits and pieces doesn't hold a candle to the original music that gave birth to rest. And i only see this in goa fans which of course is a but natural feeling albeit a false one to have.

[exotic]

Ok, guys, could someone sum up this thread, what are folks arguing about?

 

Whether darkpsy is random or not. What do you feel reger ?

[Elysium]

I've seen you dont waste any time or opportunity in claiming just like Elysium that you were partying to Goa trance before Goa Gil was mixing DAT tapes at Anjuna beach. Its a pretty popular admission of yours not only here but in Isratrance as well and it will serve you and Elysium better to not have this statement on repeat everywhere you go . So you were there in 1994 ? Big deal. Get over it, really.

 

 

1st - I don't see why you have to drag me into your debate/argument with nectarios and 2nd I never claimed I was partying to Goa trance before Gil played in Anjuna so please do not put words in my mouth thank you. And let's get one thing straight here. Just because Goa Gil played EBM and Industrial at beaches in Anjuna does not mean the music at that time was called Goa trance. If you really want a serious debate regarding the Histroy of Goa trance vs. Psychedelic trance etc. then open up a new topic and let's debate based on facts and not made up claims of who said what.

[pixma]

Is random music = bad music?

[LuisBSF]

I guess what's debatable is whether it's artsy or not. The artist seems somehow reduced to choose whatever they think best from a pool of randomly generated noises, so even if they didn't really design those, they chose whichever arrangement of sounds they thought best. And the act of choosing can't possibly be random, they will cherry pick whichever fits better with their understanding of music.

 

Not being familiar with the process itself, I'm just guessing what's randomly generated are pools of noises, but the overall flow & story of the track is under the artists control and there's nothing really random about it. Those two are of equal importance, to me, in music.

 

There's more than one aspect to music creation. I personally enjoy some of the dark stuff, given the right moment.

[Ormion]

Not being familiar with the process itself, I'm just guessing what's randomly generated are pools of noises, but the overall flow & story of the track is under the artists control and there's nothing really random about it. Those two are of equal importance, to me, in music.

 

 

And this is exactly what Rotwang and I are saying in the whole topic.

Thank you!

[abasio]

My dad thinks that all electronic music is just random sounds and isn't proper music at all.

He doesn't like it and he will never make an effort to understand it so he will forever view it as random.

Remember, just because you cannot see the pattern, it doesn't mean that there isn't one. What it means is that you cannot see the pattern that is all. Probably this will make it that you don't enjoy the music but that alone is not enough to say it is just random.

 

When I think of random music I imagine myself at a piano just hitting whatever key I like. I wouldn't put darkpsy into that category even if I don't really like it that much. I prefer nightmare trance

[Rotwang]

The reasons I said I won't post an example because I hoped you know what glitches are in music, are;

I know what glitches are. I'm just not enough of an Aphex fan to know what you specifically meant by "the aphex glitch". Bear in mind that I thought (from the fact that you were replying to Time_Trap) that you were referring to something random in his music, hence my confusion.

 

I started going to parties and buying psy-trance records in 1994. I can definitely say that Goa trance was there years before what people call darkpsy today, came along.

 

I'm pretty sure that Exotic wasn't suggesting otherwise.

[Guest nectarios]

I've seen you dont waste any time or opportunity in claiming just like Elysium that you were partying to Goa trance before Goa Gil was mixing DAT tapes at Anjuna beach. Its a pretty popular admission of yours not only here but in Isratrance as well and it will serve you and Elysium better to not have this statement on repeat everywhere you go . So you were there in 1994 ? Big deal. Get over it, really.

 

 

Do you have some sort of inferiority complex mate? "I was partying to Goa trance before Gil was mixing DAT tapes at Anjuna"?! lol! Its you who needs to get over your self. Just because I have a certain amount of experiences and I spell out the order of things as they came, does not mean I need to claim anything that makes me "superior" or belittle anyone who happened to get into psytrance after I did.

Cheer up eh?

 

Peace out.

[Basilisk]

As with any style of music you can expect 95% to be junk. The best darkpsy is not at all random; take Gappeq, Derango, Psykovsky, CPC, Atriohm, Furious, Ghreg On Earth, etc. Nothing random about these guys, nor will you find any particular emphasis on demons and such. To take one example, Ghreg On Earth has developed an extremely interesting cosmology, a kind of Clive Barkeresque universe of the psychedelic fantastic. His body of work has nothing in common with the stereotypical concept of darkpsy as expressed here, not if you're paying attention anyhow.

 

When you dip into the remaining 95% you will certainly find music that approximates the stereotype. Some of this can be explained by the unusually participatory culture of darkpsy: many of its most devoted fans also create the music. Remember, it was within darkpsy that a free music movement in psytrance first originated in any serious capacity. So yes, there is a lot of garbage out there with next to zero musical value--but this is not what the style should be judged on.

[Elysium]

When you dip into the remaining 95% you will certainly find music that approximates the stereotype. Some of this can be explained by the unusually participatory culture of darkpsy: many of its most devoted fans also create the music. Remember, it was within darkpsy that a free music movement in psytrance first originated in any serious capacity. So yes, there is a lot of garbage out there with next to zero musical value--but this is not what the style should be judged on.

 

Even though I tend agree there's still one factor being ignored here and that is that when 95% suck (according to those who does not like the music) then it's obvious that the wast majority of music that suck will become the music the scene is judged upon.

[Rotwang]

Even though I tend agree there's still one factor being ignored here and that is that when 95% suck (according to those who does not like the music) then it's obvious that the wast majority of music that suck will become the music the scene is judged upon.

 

Sure. But even among the hypothetical 95% of darkpsy that sucks, it's still the case that the large majority does not have devil/horror themes, and is not random in any sense that doesn't apply just as much to other psytrance subgenres. That's the problem: I don't mind if people don't like darkpsy, but I do mind if they continue to tarnish the genre with stereotypes that have no basis in reality.

[Elysium]

Sure. But even among the hypothetical 95% of darkpsy that sucks, it's still the case that the large majority does not have devil/horror themes, and is not random in any meaningful sense. That's the problem: I don't mind if people don't like darkpsy, but I do mind if they continue to tarnish the genre with stereotypes that have no basis in reality.

 

I did not even think about or mention the devil thing here and was merely speaking in general terms regarding the music itself based on common logic which is that if a scene has that much "junk" (This is not my personal opinion) then that scene will be looked upon at as a scene where the music is of less quality. Now this apply to most scenes these days so don't take things too personal.

 

On a side note some of you guys seem very sensitive regarding the "devil" issue as it basically you guys who keep bring it up in the debates here

[Rotwang]

I did not even think about or mention the devil thing here and was merely speaking in general terms regarding the music itself [...]

I know, and I wasn't disagreeing. Just trying to steer the thread back on-topic.

 

On a side note some of you guys seem very sensitive regarding the "devil" issue as it basically you guys who keep bring it up in the debates here

 

In this thread, Visine was the first person to mention devils, and also the first person to mention horror (post 23). The first person to mention those two things in the "How was dark-psy born?" thread was you (posts 11 and 29). I haven't noticed "us guys" keep bringing it up, but I welcome any counterexamples you may have.

[Elysium]

I know, and I wasn't disagreeing. Just trying to steer the thread back on-topic.

 

 

 

In this thread, Visine was the first person to mention devils, and also the first person to mention horror (post 23). The first person to mention those two things in the "How was dark-psy born?" thread was you (posts 11 and 29). I haven't noticed "us guys" keep bringing it up, but I welcome any counterexamples you may have.

 

#11 was a joke/irony

 

Link

 

and the 2nd one was an honest opinion where I acknowledged that there is good and bad dark psy (the bad also being the projects with the Wicca/Devil topic included).

 

I did not see myself add anything regarding Wicca or Devil references into the debate here. Whereas you was the one bringing up the issue in a response to me that had nothing to do with what I was talking about That's why I get the feeling it's a very sensitive issue to you.And by that it's my final word about this issue as the whole debate here are going in circles leading nowhere.

[Rotwang]

Huh? Neither of the debates I linked were two years old. Both were on the first page of General. One was started on the third of May this year, the other was started on the 9^th.