Quantum Leap: We need to decide if the Genre is Psytrance or Goa Trance. Please help end the confusion and redundancy.

[Otto Matta]

I think I heard an Elysium track once. Once.

[Elysium]

I think I heard an Elysium track once. Once.

 

Good for you dude. Now can we get back on topic?

[Otto Matta]

Okay. My personal favorite Danes from the 90s came from the Hypnotic label. Colorbox, Bypass Unit and Psygone. Those fuckers tore some shit up. Koxbox was also great.

[Procyon]

I think you need a good lesson in this scene's history as The "goa or psytrance" scene indeed had some pretty big and influential names from Denmark dating back to 1991 (Overlords).

 

Overlords (their classic "Sundown" is probably one of the biggest selling Goa tunes in this scene's history)

KoxBox

Elysium

Sheyba

 

to name a few (many more came a few years later from mostly Denmark and Sweden).

 

Actually Mike Maquire reviewed my debut album in Dj Mag around 1995

 

I know how all of them, and some more, and I know how they were important to psy/goa. What I meant is that at that time, even with big names like you mentioned, Denmark (and other cultural centers) paled in comparison to what was going on in London - for some unique reasons. First, most expats living in Goa were British or Americans. Second, charter flights from Goa had London as their prime European destination. Third, even before Goa arrived in London, there was a pulsating club scene that no other place could match. So all this make London a natural place where Goa found its comfortable nest. Sure, Copenhagen should have its scene, but it was peripheral to London. I bet that KoxBox and Overlords were to London somepoint before their most known releases.

[Elysium]

I know how all of them, and some more, and I know how they were important to psy/goa. What I meant is that at that time, even with big names like you mentioned, Denmark (and other cultural centers) paled in comparison to what was going on in London - for some unique reasons. First, most expats living in Goa were British or Americans. Second, charter flights from Goa had London as their prime European destination. Third, even before Goa arrived in London, there was a pulsating club scene that no other place could match. So all this make London a natural place where Goa found its comfortable nest. Sure, Copenhagen should have its scene, but it was peripheral to London. I bet that KoxBox and Overlords were to London somepoint before their most known releases.

 

Funny is that I lived in London at the time (end of 1995 - mid of 1998) and as I recall the danish artists was in high demand all over the world being asked to play live and DJ and looked at just as popular as those you mention (based on the fact we had the same number of bookings and released on the same labels) and danish artist was also in high demand in London where we worked with many artists in various side projects. Of course London was a meeting point in music (as it's always been) but fact is many of the popular projects of that time was made up by international artists and of course UK artists meeting up in London or living there because of the easy access to studios. I personally played in clubs all over London and Brighton regular and was basically busy playing every weekend around the world alongside the ones you consider to be the top names. In normal week days I worked with music at the legendary Butterfly studio (Owned by Youth - founder of Dragonfly records) remixing example ZodiacYouth and creating many projects there (One even being top seller for a whole year all over Europe).

 

So to say Denmark (who had some amazing clubs and parties equal top international names playing there every weekend from 1992 - 2000) or danish artists was less important or influential (or paled in comparison) to this scene is in my book dead wrong and is not based on facts but on stereotypes which you find in many wrong written stories about this scene. Written by a small elite (usually from UK + Goa Gil) who usually think they have the right to take all the credit from the many who contributed to what this scene was in the 90's. I'll never accept the way the history of this scene is being written by this elite.

 

IMO

[Ormion]

In my book,

 

Goa Trance is Psychedelic trance, but psychedelic trance isn't necessarily goa trance. Psychedelic trance is the general,more abstract term, and then it can be divided to subgenres like goa , suomi or dark

 

That's how I see it as well.

 

When somebody asks me what kind of music I'm listening to I answer Psytrance. Because in my mind psytrance involves Goa Trance as well.

If I ask someone and he answers I'm listening to Goa Trance then I think that he only listens to Goa.

[Procyon]

Funny is that I lived in London at the time (end of 1995 - mid of 1998) and as I recall the danish artists was in high demand all over the world being asked to play live and DJ and looked at just as popular as those you mention (based on the fact we had the same number of bookings and released on the same labels) and danish artist was also in high demand in London where we worked with many artists in various side projects. Of course London was a meeting point in music (as it's always been) but fact is many of the popular projects of that time was made up by international artists and of course UK artists meeting up in London or living there because of the easy access to studios. I personally played in clubs all over London and Brighton regular and was basically busy playing every weekend around the world alongside the ones you consider to be the top names. In normal week days I worked with music at the legendary Butterfly studio (Owned by Youth - founder of Dragonfly records) remixing example ZodiacYouth and creating many projects there (One even being top seller for a whole year all over Europe).

 

So to say Denmark (who had some amazing clubs and parties equal top international names playing there every weekend from 1992 - 2000) or danish artists was less important or influential (or paled in comparison) to this scene is in my book dead wrong and is not based on facts but on stereotypes which you find in many wrong written stories about this scene. Written by a small elite (usually from UK + Goa Gil) who usually think they have the right to take all the credit from the many who contributed to what this scene was in the 90's. I'll never accept the way the history of this scene is being written by this elite.

 

IMO

 

Well, Elysium, this your side of the history is very funny. This is the first time I read something like that. Again, I don't say that Copenhagen scene was not important (I retreat that comment of mine), but I can't see, hear, read or research that Copenhagen was the melting pot of European goa scene in the 1990s. The same way I never read that any other cities were so crucial to techno and house as Detroit and Chicago.

[Elysium]

Well, Elysium, this your side of the history is very funny. This is the first time I read something like that. Again, I don't say that Copenhagen scene was not important (I retreat that comment of mine), but I can't see, hear, read or research that Copenhagen was the melting pot of European goa scene in the 1990s. The same way I never read that any other cities were so crucial to techno and house as Detroit and Chicago.

 

I did not say Copenhagen was a melting-point. Please read what I wrote again. I was merely objecting to your statements that danish artists was not as influential as UK artists in that period of time.

 

Also please explain to me if you were part of the scene in those days or if you get your info from articles and various internet based stories about the scene?This is important to me to understand where your statements come from (not that I think your statements are of less value - but they might not be 100% accurate).

[Procyon]

I did not say Copenhagen was a melting-point. Please read what I wrote again. I was merely objecting to your statements that danish artists was not as influential as UK artists in that period of time.

 

Also please explain to me if you were part of the scene in those days or if you get your info from articles and various internet based stories about the scene?This is important to me to understand where your statements come from (not that I think your statements are of less value - but they might not be 100% accurate).

 

You didn't say that Copenhagen was the melting-pot, it was me. But the way you are carrying your arguments, it's clear that you are not satisfied that Copenhagen (and please, let's not be so ink-in-the-paper, when I talk about a city I am talking of the scene as whole, and not as this-or-that 3 or 4 artists born in the city. If so, I would have to cite almost every capital in the world) is leveled up to London, as a place where Goa boomed.

 

Finally, I didn't live in London by the time, I was living in another exciting capital: Tokyo, which by way is perhaps the only place in the world where the Goa ambience is still the same, if you look for the right parties. And I don't think it really matters. I may have not lived physically there, but I was as involved in the Goa scene as one could be. And I haven't written a word out of context of what is accepted as the 'official' goa saga. As for you, even though I do believe you were there, these last sequence of posts you wrote are at least, very, very personal, thus unique, (UK + Goa Gil, who usually think they have the right to take all the credit from the many who contributed to what this scene was in the 90's. I'll never accept the way the history of this scene is being written by this elite.) and never heard of. I dare challenge someone here to corroborate your version that Copenhangen was equally crucial to the popularization of Goa as London was.

[djmaxfactor1995]

You can't, only mods or admins can do so. I can't see why you think it's necessary, though - the debate is perfectly amicable. Sorry, but since other people seem happy discussing the subject in this thread I'm not going to close it right now (you can of course edit your own posts if you're unhappy about something you wrote).

 

I thought the debate was over. I know that it does nothing to state that I would never close a topic because I don't like it. But, it's true. As a matter of fact, I am amazed to know that it still has some momentum. That actually makes me feel like the original post was worth posting. Wunderbar! Thank you for not giving me the power to end this thread. And thank you for allowing me to post it.

Wow, I feel like a human being. thank you so much.

 

I am not sure how to reply to two replies at once, so this is also meant for Elysium.

[Veracohr]

Yes, your observation is very astute. But, I don't agree that it is pointless...

Let me restate what I meant by my post.

 

It's not pointless to try to make a change you think needs made. It's pointless to start a thread on an internet forum and attempt to get a consensus on reclassifying music from one genre name to another. Even if we all magically agreed to stop using the term 'goa' to refer to anything other than a part of India, it would have absolutely no effect in the overall world-wide scene. I don't know if you've ever observed or considered the fluctuations of mass opinion, behavior or action, but the individual rarely changes the course of the mass just by deeming it so. It has to occur naturally. I'm speaking here in terms of entire movements, scenes, etc.

 

Take this for example: in 1979 a group people involved in with psychedelics in various ways decided that 'psychedelic' was not the best term to use for certain hallucinogenic (to use the medical term) substances. They invented the word 'entheogen' and decided it was better suited these particular substances. It means "generating the divine within"; they decided this was a better term in part because it refers to the substances' use in spiritual ways, and in part because the word 'psychedelic' had come to have too much negative baggage.

 

The word 'entheogen' is still used today in the psychedelic community (not speaking of psychedelic music here). Not by everybody, but by enough. But it's not used today because these fellows set about trying to get everyone around to use it instead of 'psychedelic'. They just changed their own habits, explained the difference they saw in the terms when the need arose, and naturally over time a part of the population started using the word 'entheogen'.

 

Apologies if anyone thought that was too much of a tangent, I'm just trying to make a point.

[Rotwang]

I am not sure how to reply to two replies at once, so this is also meant for Elysium.

 

Press the button marked "MultiQuote" under each post you want to quote in your reply, then hit the "Add Reply" button at the bottom of the page.

[djmaxfactor1995]

You didn't say that Copenhagen was the melting-pot, it was me. But the way you are carrying your arguments, it's clear that you are not satisfied that Copenhagen (and please, let's not be so ink-in-the-paper, when I talk about a city I am talking of the scene as whole, and not as this-or-that 3 or 4 artists born in the city. If so, I would have to cite almost every capital in the world) is leveled up to London, as a place where Goa boomed.

 

Finally, I didn't live in London by the time, I was living in another exciting capital: Tokyo, which by way is perhaps the only place in the world where the Goa ambience is still the same, if you look for the right parties. And I don't think it really matters. I may have not lived physically there, but I was as involved in the Goa scene as one could be. And I haven't written a word out of context of what is accepted as the 'official' goa saga. As for you, even though I do believe you were there, these last sequence of posts you wrote are at least, very, very personal, thus unique, (UK + Goa Gil, who usually think they have the right to take all the credit from the many who contributed to what this scene was in the 90's. I'll never accept the way the history of this scene is being written by this elite.) and never heard of. I dare challenge someone here to corroborate your version that Copenhangen was equally crucial to the popularization of Goa as London was.

 

Whoa! Gentlemen. Please stay on the topic. And besides, Goa/Psy boomed way more in S.F. then London or Chicago. It's amazing to my tiny American mind that Copenhagen and London are geographically so far apart to even warrant your debate. I do give credit to Procyon for the data about expats and London's connection with Goa. I did not know that. When I went to Europe (Paris), the first night, I got on Le TGV and went to Amsterdam. It seems I easily could have went to London or Copenhagen. But, I could not get to Chicago or even L.A. in the same time. Unless, I flew. But that is because America is set up to use Jets and Cars. Not really trains for people, except Amtrak, but no one really uses that. In that sense we screwed. But, I digress. Actually London and Copenhagen are pretty far apart using ground transportation. But it is about the same distance by air that L.A. is to S.F. But, I forgot how serious you take those borders in Europe, especially now that the EU wants to erase them. It just seems that for a Continent with so many languages, you could easily communicate with each other. And, in that way, European countries are like states. If we spoke different Languages, we would not be states. we would be countries. But just three countries: The North, The South, and Texas. BTW, Procyon, Tokyo is like Honolulu to S.F. I don't know how the rave scene is in Honolulu. I lived there for six years but I never attempted to find an underground scene. You may know.

 

And, now that I am way off topic, let me say this. I have a greater respect and congruence with the members of this site for their input on this topic. It just goes to show that we have experienced very similar things with PsoaTrance. However, they are very personal and treasured experiences. I am very glad that we value this music in a way that we should learn is a successful part of a new Value System to help everyone erase the borders and cultural and metaphysical and racial beliefs we behave so poorly. One thing to take from this discussion is that music does not seek it's own filing cabinet. But, I don't think it is unhealthy for us to seek a way to help understand the music and allow us to appreciate it even more. I still hold true to my initial premise that it is unhealthy to use tools that separate us from accessing the intrinsic nature of our relationship with music. It is these negative connotations of the words we carry that may not be alleviated by removing the word. But, I think that removing a word that does not help us experience music to our full potential, it should be removed.

I believe that Bruce Lee states it perfectly, “It’s not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential.”

And, if an artist has made a considerable breakthrough there is a subgenre that is so mindblowing that it is a must experience. Please tell me. I have not had an epiphany since KoxBox's The Great Unknown. I can't get the samples out of my head, "There is a major problem in Australia..." and "Learn to walk in the Sky..." Or whatever he says.

I love it. I still love that Prodigy track as well, "I walk through minefields to make your head rock." How f**king awesome is that lyric?

I am here as your student and I am here as my teacher.

Thanks, again.

 

BTW, I really am bad at one thing: That is the inability I have to heal my trauma from Goa Gil's "mixing."

[djmaxfactor1995]

Let me restate what I meant by my post.

 

Take this for example: in 1979 a group people involved in with psychedelics in various ways decided that 'psychedelic' was not the best term to use for certain hallucinogenic (to use the medical term) substances. They invented the word 'entheogen' and decided it was better suited these particular substances. It means "generating the divine within"; they decided this was a better term in part because it refers to the substances' use in spiritual ways, and in part because the word 'psychedelic' had come to have too much negative baggage.

 

 

I am all for using a new word other than psytrance or goa trance...let's get rid of both. I think I have put so much negative connotations on Goa Trance and I have blocked the overall negative inferences that people draw from Psychedelic. I admit that I really am just picking what I believe is the better of two evils. And, you have brought my awareness to a familiar place. Goa and Psychedelic have major stigmas. I associate Goa with Hinduism and Religion and Robes and incense and stinky hippies. I can vicariously associate Psychedelic as fear, dark, unknown, uncomfortable, anxiety, false enlightenment. Acid bothers me the most. It should be called Goa Trancid. That would really scare me away. I think that both hallucinogenic drugs and religious associations are very powerful influences on peoples thinking and acting. And, I don't think either should be associated with music. It's like Acid Rock or Gospel. Both make me cringe. I originally thought of SCITRANCE as a much better way to spell it. I still think that is the best term for this music. It fits perfectly. I have no negative views from it. Unfortunately, 16 years ago we didn't have these global forums and now it is trying to be used, I think for PsyTekk? and it is the name of an MP3 player. So, I think that it is pretty much useless.

I found this:

http-~~-//www.veoh.com/watch/v10661591eSwWFCdZ

 

So, where do we go from here?

[TranceVisuals]

I am staring at a flyer from the 2005, from a night called Alien Resonance with the words "SCI-TRANCE" emblazoned across it.

There is another from Planet Zogg, with "Hyperdelic Trance" on it, and another from Sunrise with "Slighty-delic Trance" on it.

Or a flyer from Otherworld, with "A night of Dance, Trance and Magic Plants" on it. I have dozen of other flyers from the north

UK stretching back to the mid-90's with almost ever conceivable description for the music/event possible.

Did any of these terms matter......

Nope not really.

I think your "preoccupation" with labels is a bit pedantic, and a complete waste of time. Leave it to historians to argue over

the terms and definitions, and get out there and participate, imho.

[Tatsu]

"Problem" is there is no right or wrong here as fact is that each country had it's own phase of genre labeling the music (UK labeled it Goatrance before Psytrance and Denmark labeled it Psytrance before Goatrance) . It would be an endless debate with no end result as you can see from people's posts

 

Yes, regional differences in labeling music are quite a thing. I live in Switzerland and here parties playing psychedelic music are still labeled as Goa Parties. Even when the music that is played there can range from progressive, full-on of all kinds, dark psy, psytrance and even old real Goa. It's the common word that is used to label the parties since it is connected to the general groove o of the party, means the decoration and the additude and what not. The word goa is also used to describe the music, as for example if somebody asks me what kind of music I'm listening to (at work for example) I just say Goa and they have the image of what I listen to. Even when the music playing is not Goa in the technical way but stuff like progressive or full-on. Obviously I talk with somebody that is actually into this kind of music we use the exact terms like progressive or whatever it is. But explainig detailed terms to somebody that is not listening to the music is confusing and they might get the wrong image. On the other hand if I were in another country I would definitely not use the Goa expression as a generalisation since I think the people there would not make the same assumption about what it means like the people here do.

 

The reason why I don't validating anything is because I do not see any reason to validate anything as I believe genre debates are nitpicking really. I see no reason in debating if a genre is valid or not. If a genre name is used by the majority in a scene then its real and valid IMO

 

And regarding my timeline you read it wrong But maybe I should have made it more clear I meant the starting years where after the genres are running side by side.

 

To cut things short here. To me personally the whole damn thing melted together around 1996-97 and became one big melting-pot where some called it Goa and some called it Psytrance. Basically the music was from the same Stew. An example is that all the music no matter the genre naming was played all over the world side by side - incl. in Goa.

 

To me there real gap (where people for the 1st time got divided within the scene) began with Nitzhonot followed by Full-on taking the music in in a much more commercial "pop-music" direction and ending up far away from the original music.

 

Totaly agree to the first part! I mean those labesl come in handy if you are looking for recommendations or if you talk about music. But in the and it is just a label and they are imho sometimes flow together at certain points or with certain artists so if I like a tune I can live with it if some people call it goa or others psy. It's good music anyway.

 

And about the music melting together: I just went to a party that was labeled as playing old techno tracks from the beginning of the nineties until the end of the nineties. This included stuff like old hard-core (one of the Djs they got was a former member of Altern8) to old vocal trance (if that is the correct label anyway but we call it like that here), hard-trance, goaish stuff and what not. The tracks were not only so varied because there were different DJs with different sets of vinyls according to their taste but also the single sets mixed the styles. I got told that this was how parties used to be back in the days (I wasn't going out back then). And I have to say I love that! Who cares about the genre names if the music is great.

 

I am not trying to succeed at eliminating Goa Trance. I am seeking to eliminate the term if it is being used redundantly. But, you state that Goa Trance deserves a separate classification from Psytrance? If that is true, than I have succeeded at separating Goa from Psytrance. Did your example earlier state that the Sun-trip track was Goa and the E-Clip one is Psytrance? Because, I don't see that. That one you call Goa Trance is formulated almost exactly as Pleiadians or Total Eclipse. I just don't see that there is enough to separate. I can hear the difference you are talking about. But that is exactly the formula for Infected Mushroom. Who, I believe took an element from Hallucinogen and exploited it. And now that I see the identical sounding tracks still being played. It makes me want to vomit. The 12/8 Swing-like time signature from Fluoro Neuro Sponge has been beaten to death. And, please tell me why people think that Hallucinogen made any Goa Trance Tracks. I saw someone say FNS is a Goa Track. Well that means LSD is a Goa Track? And why is he call himself Hallucinogen. Why not Goagen or Goa Ranger. Or, why not Goangle. And while I am let it all hang out let me just say that Infected Mushroom is the biggest biter of Hallucinogen, ever. No wonder, Posford switched to Shpongle. And the Psytrance example you gave me is identical to Infected Mushroom. According to you, I can conclude that the entire psytrance scene is based from what IM stole from Hallucinogen. You mean it has never changed in the last 11 years. It is still one IM track after another? And the Etnica, KoxBox, X-Dream, Prana, etc. are the Goa Trance artists?

 

For me personaly (which means it is by no means a matter of fact term) the Twisted album is Goa and The Lone Deranger is Psy. To me the LSD track is the essence of Goa (again, for me!). That does not mean that all the tracks labeled as Goa sound similar or sound like LSD, some are darker and what not. Obviously this is a personal thing and if you label Hallucinogen not with Goa you will have your reasons. But I don't understand how an artist who calls himself Hallucinogen can not be Goa (beause of the name, not the style). What has the artist name to do with the style? Sure you can take some hints if an artist choose the name Goasia for example but just because the term Goa is not used it means nothing imho.

 

 

 

Never gonna happen. Psy trance has evolved into the kind of stuff that I posted up. Goa has evolved to into a more melodic faster paced type of music. You will never succeed so you may as well give up.

 

 

 

I'd hardly say E-Clip has failed at anything he's done so far. His 'Shuma' album has received rave reviews all round. John 00 Fleming loves him so much he's signed him to Joof to bring out his 2nd album. He's got a massive following.

 

I guess it depends on how you interpret failed. He failed to please the user whose post you commented on. But I doubt there is an artist who manages to please everone and their pets since different people have different taste so... But I have to say the E-Clip does not remind me at all about Hallucinogen or IM as somebody stated before. I like his music but I did not have the impression he wanted to copy any of those artists. Or if he wanted he failed since he didn't sound similar to me at all.

[djmaxfactor1995]

I think your "preoccupation" with labels is a bit pedantic, and a complete waste of time. Leave it to historians to argue over

the terms and definitions, and get out there and participate, imho.

 

Thank you for your stunning reverence. I don't think I have seen the word, pedantic actually written. I know I have heard the word. Because it sounded so nerdy. Like a nasally psytrance sound that is being tweaked by the cutoff and resonance. Can you hear it P-daaaaaaaooooaaannnnnntic. That's cool.

 

Leave it to historians? I don't appreciate the way you take the most powerful unifying force in the universe and dismiss it. The fact that you question my motives, proves that you don't know why. And, that is what scientists are just now asking. We don't know why music causes us to behave the way we do. What they are finding out is that music and the preoccupation with describing sound, is something that all humans do. It is being discovered that mathematics and traditional music theory don't explain, completely why we are so preoccupied with music and why we seek to label it. It is very tricky. Our cultures have a big influence on how we hear music. And it is when we bump up against other cultures we get into trouble. I think that is what Elysium was stating. But, that doesn't make it pedantic. That doesn't make it trivial. That doesn't make it pointless.

Now if you were able to give an educated opinion and not an emotional one, I would consider your suggestion. But, you really just put me down because you don't understand it. That's okay. That is typical fear based behavior. But, I am not motivated by fear. I don't just follow the sheep and get out there and participate. So, ignorantly dancing around like a lobotomized mental patient is what I should do. The only person that knows what I should do is me. We never stop being students. The get out there and participate you are talking about I have already done a billion times. This, here, now, I have not. You must see by now that life is a mystery and questioning everything is absolutely pertinent to living. We find out the most in the process of all the pedantic preoccupations. You will understand someday, that we learn more about life from the process of asking about life. Rarely does an epiphany come from an answer. Revelatory awaking almost always comes from what you call "get out there and participate" Let me take you on a journey....

 

What you don't understand is that I am participating out there. This forum is the place out there and I am not only participating in it, I started it. Because you believe that I am not. You must perceive this forum as "inside" and also must perceive that you are doing nothing. This gigantic fallacy that you believe now becomes a paradox. The paradox is that, what you believe to be real is actually not real. And, you believe that you are doing nothing in a real place. But your belief is based on the false conclusion that I am inside doing nothing.

Now, because you your conclusion was flawed it means that your premise was incorrect. Your premise was that my preoccupation with labels is pedantic. However, I just disproved your entire argument. That means you are wrong about my preoccupation being pedantic. Therefore, what you think is wrong. Maybe you should learn logic before you write what you think. Next time you may not look like a fool. So did you have fun?

[djmaxfactor1995]

Yes, regional differences in labeling music are quite a thing. I live in Switzerland and here parties playing psychedelic music are still labeled as Goa Parties. Even when the music that is played there can range from progressive, full-on of all kinds, dark psy, psytrance and even old real Goa. It's the common word that is used to label the parties since it is connected to the general groove o of the party, means the decoration and the additude and what not. The word goa is also used to describe the music, as for example if somebody asks me what kind of music I'm listening to (at work for example) I just say Goa and they have the image of what I listen to. Even when the music playing is not Goa in the technical way but stuff like progressive or full-on. Obviously I talk with somebody that is actually into this kind of music we use the exact terms like progressive or whatever it is. But explainig detailed terms to somebody that is not listening to the music is confusing and they might get the wrong image. On the other hand if I were in another country I would definitely not use the Goa expression as a generalisation since I think the people there would not make the same assumption about what it means like the people here do.

 

 

 

Totaly agree to the first part! I mean those labesl come in handy if you are looking for recommendations or if you talk about music. But in the and it is just a label and they are imho sometimes flow together at certain points or with certain artists so if I like a tune I can live with it if some people call it goa or others psy. It's good music anyway.

 

And about the music melting together: I just went to a party that was labeled as playing old techno tracks from the beginning of the nineties until the end of the nineties. This included stuff like old hard-core (one of the Djs they got was a former member of Altern8) to old vocal trance (if that is the correct label anyway but we call it like that here), hard-trance, goaish stuff and what not. The tracks were not only so varied because there were different DJs with different sets of vinyls according to their taste but also the single sets mixed the styles. I got told that this was how parties used to be back in the days (I wasn't going out back then). And I have to say I love that! Who cares about the genre names if the music is great.

 

 

 

For me personaly (which means it is by no means a matter of fact term) the Twisted album is Goa and The Lone Deranger is Psy. To me the LSD track is the essence of Goa (again, for me!). That does not mean that all the tracks labeled as Goa sound similar or sound like LSD, some are darker and what not. Obviously this is a personal thing and if you label Hallucinogen not with Goa you will have your reasons. But I don't understand how an artist who calls himself Hallucinogen can not be Goa (beause of the name, not the style). What has the artist name to do with the style? Sure you can take some hints if an artist choose the name Goasia for example but just because the term Goa is not used it means nothing imho.

 

 

 

 

 

I guess it depends on how you interpret failed. He failed to please the user whose post you commented on. But I doubt there is an artist who manages to please everone and their pets since different people have different taste so... But I have to say the E-Clip does not remind me at all about Hallucinogen or IM as somebody stated before. I like his music but I did not have the impression he wanted to copy any of those artists. Or if he wanted he failed since he didn't sound similar to me at all.

 

I appreciate your honesty. I hope you also understand this forum is dynamic and I know my tone was anti-goa and that would definitely cause a bias and no matter what anyone wrote, it wouldn't matter to me. But, that is the reason to have an open forum and discuss these things. Obviously this is not a stupid or waste of time. These forums can be very powerful tools. Especially now that we can create a flow that makes the distances between us seem as we are sitting next to eachother talking and not half-way around the world writing letters to each other. That would be pointless. I know that Twisted was supposed to be GOA and it was I have changed my point of view. I can see at that transitional period both labels are correct. Twisted was Goa and it was Psy. I can also see that really they are the same today. But I can also see the difference. Correct me if I am wrong. The differences that you speak are the same elements you find in the music back then. These differences I don't think are enough to warrant a distinction. The reason is the same reason you call Deranger Psy and Twisted Goa. How can you look at the same artist and say that in the course of one album that they went from goa to psy. But, There is no difference, really. There may be some darker tracks but that is just a variation. So to me you are saying that they are both Goa and Psy. Even if you don't see it that way. The attributes we associate with Goa are the same as Psy so they never really were different and if they were not different then they could not split from each other. You know that LSD is a psychedelic and it also creates hallucinations that make it a hallucinogen. Also Twisted was released on Dragon Fly records. Dragon Fly states that it is the worlds first psytrance record label. But all that aside. I have agreed that they are both psytrance and goatrance ...but you are now asking that I make a distinction between the them Because as I stated in the beginning these terms have been used interchangeably And the obvious reason that we can't get rid of either label is because this musis is both. So Twisted was the quintisential Goa/Psytrance album. The Lone Deranger was a masterful follow up Goa/Psytrance album.

 

Can we all agree that it is impossible to separate the two and not because of logical differences but because of cultural viewpoints .

 

 

Also, I never said that E-clip intentionally stole from hallucinogen. I said that IM totally bit off hallucinogen and that sound that is in the E-clip track is something that Hallucinogen developed very well if you don'[ hear it. I don't know how to make you hear it. The other track I was arguing that it was a ripoff from the various artists of my day. But now that I have changed my view that Goa and Psy never spit in the first place . Then both E-clip and ??333 are Goa/Psytrance.

 

However, from a strictly DJ viewpoint. That viewpoint is about the quality of the song in my opinion and the way that I mix would it be worth me purchasing because I only have so much money. But a shitload of records to filter. And on that basis, I don't think those songs were worthy of me purchasing. They don't do anything different or go with another track that I would want to mix. No. If I were going to use E-CM's sound I already have hallucinogen or GMS that have that sound. Or the other track I already have plenty of Etnica, KoxBox, Pleiadians, Astral Projection that would cover that. It wasn't that I didn't like the tracks it was a more a business decision. Do you understand?

 

I can see why now Goa Trance wants to go back to the old sounds and separate from psytrance But, that is not going to happen. And, I will tell you what this post taught me. That too many people view the albums music differently but even if they think one is Goa or one is Psy. There is another that thinks it is the opposite. Regardless if people are aware of that Goa and Psy have been used separatley to define the same song, The easiest thing to do is use both and if someone says it goa and another says its psy, I will know that it is Goa/PsyTrance and I want to hear it.

And as Bill Hicks states, "Case-F**king-Closed!"

[TranceVisuals]

Thank you for your stunning reverence..............So did you have fun?

 

The fact you presume to know me better than myself makes you a bit of an idiot in my book.

But hey, carry on with your assumptions, and reality tunnel, confusing the map for the

territory.

 

Those who can, do.

[djmaxfactor1995]

The fact you presume to know me better than myself makes you a bit of an idiot in my book.

But hey, carry on with your assumptions, and reality tunnel, confusing the map for the

territory.

 

Those who can, do.

 

I don't understand. How am I being presumptious. I admit, I don't know you. You actually were presumptious to say I was pedantic and that I should be doing something else. I did get upset at that, at first and I admit I was taking you at face value with the "Go outside and do something" rhetoric that I have heard people shout at each other. I apoligize for that. And using logic to disprove someone is much better than emotions, don't you think. And so I got a little extreme with it but it was to reinforce the fact that I am not doing nothing in some cave somewhere. Correct me if I am wrong, That is what you are referring to that I get up from this computer and go outside and do something outside. And just for get about this? You know what T.V.? that's good advice. Thanks. I will chat with you fine ladies and gentlemen later.

 

Logoff....

[Tatsu]

I appreciate your honesty. I hope you also understand this forum is dynamic and I know my tone was anti-goa and that would definitely cause a bias and no matter what anyone wrote, it wouldn't matter to me. But, that is the reason to have an open forum and discuss these things. Obviously this is not a stupid or waste of time. These forums can be very powerful tools. Especially now that we can create a flow that makes the distances between us seem as we are sitting next to eachother talking and not half-way around the world writing letters to each other. That would be pointless.

Obviously, if I would think different about the forum I would most likely not use it.

 

I know that Twisted was supposed to be GOA and it was I have changed my point of view. I can see at that transitional period both labels are correct. Twisted was Goa and it was Psy. I can also see that really they are the same today. But I can also see the difference. Correct me if I am wrong. The differences that you speak are the same elements you find in the music back then. These differences I don't think are enough to warrant a distinction. The reason is the same reason you call Deranger Psy and Twisted Goa. How can you look at the same artist and say that in the course of one album that they went from goa to psy. But, There is no difference, really.

I fail to see how an artist can or could not switch his style from one album to another. To me personaly, the differences in those albums are enough for me to warrant a disctinction. Not as rule for everyone to follow or as a general truth but for me personally.

 

 

There may be some darker tracks but that is just a variation. So to me you are saying that they are both Goa and Psy. Even if you don't see it that way. The attributes we associate with Goa are the same as Psy so they never really were different and if they were not different then they could not split from each other. You know that LSD is a psychedelic and it also creates hallucinations that make it a hallucinogen. Also Twisted was released on Dragon Fly records. Dragon Fly states that it is the worlds first psytrance record label. But all that aside. I have agreed that they are both psytrance and goatrance ...but you are now asking that I make a distinction between the them Because as I stated in the beginning these terms have been used interchangeably And the obvious reason that we can't get rid of either label is because this musis is both. So Twisted was the quintisential Goa/Psytrance album. The Lone Deranger was a masterful follow up Goa/Psytrance album. Can we all agree that it is impossible to separate the two and not because of logical differences but because of cultural viewpoints

Well, I say that for me one is Goa, the other is psy. You say that "we" (who is we? you and me? the community? the scene?) use the same attributes to identify psy and goa, so there is no difference (if I understood that correctly). I personaly don't seem to use the same attributes as you because I feel/hear a difference. Unless you refere to my statement about how the therm goa is used in Switzerland, which is a different thing than talking about general labels for music. Anyway, I'm for sure not asking you to make a difference because of my personal perception if for you there is no difference. I just stated why I think it is valid to have two terms. Even if they don't mean the same thing for all the people.

 

Also, I never said that E-clip intentionally stole from hallucinogen. I said that IM totally bit off hallucinogen and that sound that is in the E-clip track is something that Hallucinogen developed very well if you don'[ hear it. I don't know how to make you hear it. The other track I was arguing that it was a ripoff from the various artists of my day. But now that I have changed my view that Goa and Psy never spit in the first place . Then both E-clip and ??333 are Goa/Psytrance.

 

However, from a strictly DJ viewpoint. That viewpoint is about the quality of the song in my opinion and the way that I mix would it be worth me purchasing because I only have so much money. But a shitload of records to filter. And on that basis, I don't think those songs were worthy of me purchasing. They don't do anything different or go with another track that I would want to mix. No. If I were going to use E-CM's sound I already have hallucinogen or GMS that have that sound. Or the other track I already have plenty of Etnica, KoxBox, Pleiadians, Astral Projection that would cover that. It wasn't that I didn't like the tracks it was a more a business decision. Do you understand?

I didn't say anything about stealing from Hallucinogen or IM. I said that to me he does not sound like a copy of those artists. Well, besides the fact that the music sounds accordingly to the psy genre... To my ears, just because one element that was used by an artist before is used by another is not enough to make the whole track sound like something from another artist. For me there is more, like the atmosphere that is created and the emotions that a tracks creates/give me. Which is a personal thing obviously and of course people might perceive that differently. I also don't think you have to buy that (or any other) album. I just said I like it.

 

I can see why now Goa Trance wants to go back to the old sounds and separate from psytrance But, that is not going to happen. And, I will tell you what this post taught me. That too many people view the albums music differently but even if they think one is Goa or one is Psy. There is another that thinks it is the opposite. Regardless if people are aware of that Goa and Psy have been used separatley to define the same song, The easiest thing to do is use both and if someone says it goa and another says its psy, I will know that it is Goa/PsyTrance and I want to hear it.

And as Bill Hicks states, "Case-F**king-Closed!"

 

I agree about people using different terms for the same songs sometimes. And in some regions they can even have a very different meaning. Makes the whole thing very complicated. Checking out psy and goa records is obviously the way to go since I like both. It's still comfortable if people try to use the names seperately (even if they don't use the same parameters like I would) to distinguish the music, so depending on my mood I can listen to some new stuff.

[djmaxfactor1995]

I still don't get it. As a matter of fact I think all of you who believe there is a such a difference between Goa Trance and Psy-Trance, please enlighten me. Because, I think it is some emotional attachment that you have. Yet you have no way of explaining it. I especially and emphatically disagree with calling Twisted" Goa trance and "The Lone Deranger" Psytrance. The only difference is marketing. It is a scam by the record labels to sell more records. They are trying to pull on your strings with some nostalgic fascination with some hippy infested beach in a place you have never seen, never been, and never will.

 

This is from the history of psynews.org:

 

By September 2000, Children and Mars were aware the site was gaining more and more users and wanted to make it look less amateurish and enable people to communicate more easily. They also wanted to broaden its audience since "Goatrance" sounded too restrictive, and Psychedelic musicc in general were the real focus of the site...

[karan129]

I still don't get it. As a matter of fact I think all of you who believe there is a such a difference between Goa Trance and Psy-Trance, please enlighten me. Because, I think it is some emotional attachment that you have. Yet you have no way of explaining it. I especially and emphatically disagree with calling Twisted" Goa trance and "The Lone Deranger" Psytrance. The only difference is marketing. It is a scam by the record labels to sell more records. They are trying to pull on your strings with some nostalgic fascination with some hippy infested beach in a place you have never seen, never been, and never will.

 

This is from the history of psynews.org:

 

Art and therefore music is subjective. If you just don't see the difference in style or the change between say K.U.R.O. - Zoa and say Psykovsky - Lastbus Madras then that is it. Psy and Goa are the same for you. Period. It doesn't matter. The music is good, that's all. I see a difference. We can agree to disagree.

[djmaxfactor1995]

Art and therefore music is subjective. If you just don't see the difference in style or the change between say K.U.R.O. - Zoa and say Psykovsky - Lastbus Madras then that is it. Psy and Goa are the same for you. Period. It doesn't matter. The music is good, that's all. I see a difference. We can agree to disagree.

 

I hear the difference between Zoa and Lastbus Madras. You are also contrasting 1994 to 2003. My issue is not that the music sounds good. It is the fact that no one can logically explain how there is such a difference to warrant separate labels. The only pattern I see is in the timeline: 1994-1996--Goa Trance; 1996-1998--Goa Trance, PsyTrance; 1999-2009--Psytrance; 2009-present--Psytrance, Goatrance. Many tracks released in 1996-1998 were labeled as both. This is what I need help with. Either there was an evolution of the sound and Goa Trance was not sufficient anymore and that is why psytrance became the label. Or, the production of Goa Trance ceased. And artists starting releasing Psytrance, instead. Or, As you suggest, there was such a difference in the way they sounded that a different style was necessary to properly classify the music. And that seems to be a very popular argument. And, if that is true, why did the production of Goa Trance cease by the end of the 90's. And, if such a difference exists, why are so many albums classified as one, the other, or both?

[Tatsu]

I hear the difference between Zoa and Lastbus Madras. You are also contrasting 1994 to 2003. My issue is not that the music sounds good. It is the fact that no one can logically explain how there is such a difference to warrant separate labels. The only pattern I see is in the timeline: 1994-1996--Goa Trance; 1996-1998--Goa Trance, PsyTrance; 1999-2009--Psytrance; 2009-present--Psytrance, Goatrance. Many tracks released in 1996-1998 were labeled as both. This is what I need help with. Either there was an evolution of the sound and Goa Trance was not sufficient anymore and that is why psytrance became the label. Or, the production of Goa Trance ceased. And artists starting releasing Psytrance, instead. Or, As you suggest, there was such a difference in the way they sounded that a different style was necessary to properly classify the music. And that seems to be a very popular argument. And, if that is true, why did the production of Goa Trance cease by the end of the 90's. And, if such a difference exists, why are so many albums classified as one, the other, or both?

I think it is because people set the border between psy and goa differently. Or, as in your case if I understand that right, they don't set a border at all. Personal perception, happens also with other styles.