Greece, what's going on?!

[Drosophila]

I know there a some Greek members here I really have a hard time figuring out what's going on in Greece at the moment, you guys can probably help. And now the election shows that people (well a lot of the electorate anyways) don't want the European loans?! How is this gonna play?! And are things really as bad as they seem in the general media coverage (the abyss is close)....?!??

[Richpa]

According to our Croatian news reports and news in general it seems that majority of Greeks has lost its faith in their goverment and now they're turning back to other solutions such as more radical left/right wing options. I'm not that much informed about the decission what will it be with thoose loans, but I'm pretty much sure that radical options won't continue the way which is now.

[Procyon]

German premier Angela Merkel is right: Greeks - and other Mediterranean nations - need to stop living as if they're part of the top of the financial pyramid and work more, rest less. While the northern European nations have the culture of hard working, the southern nations have the culture of hard savoir-faire: too much dependence on a failing welfare, high undeserved wages, premature retirements, a massive bad presence of the state in almost every financial transaction, too much days-off and national holidays. Of course, Greeks think they deserve it and don't want, deliberately, to let their comforts provide by the state to go easily. The solution to the Greek drama is clear, as pointed by Merkel. But this election has shown that Greeks want to keep their floaty way of living. As insulting as it may seem to some Greeks this is a problem that is affecting other nations too: Spain, Portugal, France - not surprising all Mediterranean nations, where it is more pleasant to rest under the sun than to face bitter financial medicines, the ones that could bring the cure for their problems.

 

Wait and see Greek to be expelled, or to expell herself from the Eurozone.

[Ormion]

German premier Angela Merkel is right: Greeks - and other Mediterranean nations - need to stop living as if they're part of the top of the financial pyramid and work more, rest less. While the northern European nations have the culture of hard working, the southern nations have the culture of hard savoir-faire: too much dependence on a failing welfare, high undeserved wages, premature retirements, a massive bad presence of the state in almost every financial transaction, too much days-off and national holidays. Of course, Greeks think they deserve it and don't want, deliberately, to let their comforts provide by the state to go easily. The solution to the Greek drama is clear, as pointed by Merkel. But this election has shown that Greeks want to keep their floaty way of living. As insulting as it may seem to some Greeks this is a problem that is affecting other nations too: Spain, Portugal, France - not surprising all Mediterranean nations, where it is more pleasant to rest under the sun than to face bitter financial medicines, the ones that could bring the cure for their problems.

 

Wait and see Greek to be expelled, or to expell herself from the Eurozone.

 

That's a lot of incorrect information.

Greeks are the second most hard working people on earth after Koreans.

There's no such thing as premature retirements. We get retirement after we get 65 yo.

There's no such thing as many days off. We have the least days off than any european.

There's no such thing as national holidays. We spend less days than holidays and national holidays than any other european.

I work 42 hours per week and earn 650 euros.

 

I'm not saying that we are not responsible for our situation. We kept voting the same corrupted politicians.

 

But the stereotype of the lazy Greek that works for 3 hours and drinks coffee all day is totally false.

 

From BBC site ''The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German.''

[Procyon]

Yes, looking with naked eyes, the OECD ranking system make Greeks the people who work more in whole Europe. But this is a misinformation, according to specialists: a large portion of Greek working force tend to concentrate on self-employers, mainly in farming and shop-keepers, who work more. This is why they have more working hours than the rest of Europeans. On the other hand, in the ranking that really matters - productivity - the Greeks don't make not even the top 10, losing even to smaller nations. It is worse when the rank is looked from the other side - the least productives - then Greece appears at the #8 position, losing only to Eastern Europe nations, who are excused since all of them, as Estonia and Slovakia have been introduced to the notion of free commerce only recently. Making Greece position clear as a "lazy" nation is its proximity to Portugal in the least productive European nations. Portugal is long seen as an example of an England gone wrong.

The crude reality is that Greeks work more hours, produce less. Is not this the recipe of a lazy, greedy, employee who wants to get a fat salary while not producing an equivalent working output?

 

Do not take this personally Ormion, I am Brazilian and I know how lazy Portugal is, this is an inheritance we got from Portugal - work less, rest more. Brazil, despite being the richest nation in natural resources in the world is always in the bottom in the financial rankings: if we were in Europe, our way of doing business - and our size - would have sunk EU decades ago. I am aware that Brazilians are lazy, greedy and state-dependents.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155304

[Ormion]

I don't take anything personal don't worry.

 

The thing is that you have to be Greek to realize how complicated the situation is. It's not about being lazy or counterproductive. The media are doing nothing, but misinform the world.

For example they give the idea that Greece was a country that most of its citizens had an easy going life with enough money and suddenly we're broke.

That's completelly false and nothing more than propaganda. We were never wealthy, that majority of Greece was and still belongs to the low-middle class. We never had money, period. When you see in the news that this guy has a pool in his house, but hide it from taxation you have to realize that he belongs to the 0,001% of Greek population.

Euro was suppose to help us, but in the end it only makes things worse. This is why many Greeks are being skeptical about EU.

 

I'm not saying that we're not responsible for our situation, because we are. But it's not the people, it's the system. My father works since he was 16 yo and now earns 700 euros for retirement. But he still votes for the politicians that stole his money. He's not lazy or anything, he's just part of the system.

I don't believe in the lazy countries vs productive countries. There's no such thing as lazy DNA. Brazilians are not lazier than Germans for example.

[Time_Trap]

German premier Angela Merkel is right: Greeks - and other Mediterranean nations - need to stop living as if they're part of the top of the financial pyramid and work more, rest less.

 

That's total bullshit for the most part of it, Ormion is right.

 

I think you should stop paying so much attention to the media when it's about to form an opinion.

[ma05683]

sun is great

frape(greek style nescafe) with 4 square piece of ice etc

sexy girls in the beaches

and NO MONEY in our pockets

so where is the problem??

no problems at all

 

:ph34r:

[Procyon]

 

That's total bullshit for the most part of it, Ormion is right.

 

I think you should stop paying so much attention to the media when it's about to form an opinion.

 

It is not "media", but respected economists from different nations who have diagnosed the Mediterranean problem. Only yesterday I heard an American friend who said a great simple truth: prosper Germany is the example to be followed in Europe. The others should adopt reforms now.

 

Ormion, it is a fact that Greece has more than doubled the GDP since it entered the eurozone, a fact that Greece alone wouldn't have achieved without the help of neighboor nations. So Greece has grown inside Europe. Problem is that Greece needs to make a deep financial/social/economic reform in order to grow more.

[Ormion]

 

It is not "media", but respected economists from different nations who have diagnosed the Mediterranean problem. Only yesterday I heard an American friend who said a great simple truth: prosper Germany is the example to be followed in Europe. The others should adopt reforms now.

 

Ormion, it is a fact that Greece has more than doubled the GDP since it entered the eurozone, a fact that Greece alone wouldn't have achieved without the help of neighboor nations. So Greece has grown inside Europe.

 

First of all I highly doubt there's such thing as 'respected' economist. If you mean the ones that speak on tv panels they're certainly not respected. Standard And Poor's and the rest of the financial services companies are considered respected as well, but we all know what's their purpose. Too mess with entire countries just to make money.

 

Now the main reason Germany is prosper is that they already had a vast heavy industry after WWII, while Greece was destroyed in WWII (and later by dictatorship). This is not an excuse but definitely you can't compare them.

 

About the GDP again you have to live in Greece to realise that the fact that it was doubled didn't impact our lives at all. On the contrary each year it's worse. Since we adopted euro salaries are decreasing even more and the prices are higher than ever. How exactly eurozone helped Greece besides from the corrupted politicians?

Believe me if we had a time machine and traveled back in time when we're about to enter the eurozone most of Greeks would prefer to stay in drachmas. Now it's too late because if we live the eurozone we're simply screwed, but one of the reasons we got screwed is eurozone itself.

 

Again I'm not saying we're not responsible, but things are not black and white.

 

 

Problem is that Greece needs to make a deep financial/social/economic reform in order to grow more

I completelly agree. Especially in the social part. Not just a reform, but more of a revolution.

[Time_Trap]

This, plus keep in mind procyon not everyone has to follow the german model or way of life.

 

Also keep in mind that Germany has its blame about corruption as well (towards the south). I am not talking only Siemens here but also the fact that you loan money to someone and with these borrowed many he buys your products ... So you both take a big part of your loan back PLUS he owes you the money ... This is not 'corruption' technically but I think this shows that things are not black and white.

 

As far as "respected" and "economist", it sounds like a joke when these 2 words are adjacent.

[Procyon]

Of course Germany is not a saint in any situation, but economically speaking no one can deny it's a powerhouse. Anyway, ideologies apart, Greece must make something soon, for the government does not have money enough to pay public workers in May - next month! - let alone banks and international debts. IMF has said it won't hand Greece the 30 billion loan if the situation deteriorates, which could lead to the domino effect the rest of the world is afraid of.

 

To show that the "sunbathing" theory has some ground, Portugal has just announced it cancelled 4 national holidays this year in order to make workers, well...eerr..., to work. More.

[needle ninja]

Loaning money so that they can buy your stuff...America perfected the art

[Time_Trap]

Loaning money so that they can buy your stuff...America perfected the art

 

[Guest D N H]

 

First of all I highly doubt there's such thing as 'respected' economist. If you mean the ones that speak on tv panels they're certainly not respected. Standard And Poor's and the rest of the financial services companies are considered respected as well, but we all know what's their purpose. Too mess with entire countries just to make money.

 

Now the main reason Germany is prosper is that they already had a vast heavy industry after WWII, while Greece was destroyed in WWII (and later by dictatorship). This is not an excuse but definitely you can't compare them.

 

Again I'm not saying we're not responsible, but things are not black and white.

 

I completelly agree. Especially in the social part. Not just a reform, but more of a revolution.

Germany was destroyed as well, but its industry was rebuilt and lots of europeans immigrated to work there. Greece suffered after the WW2 and its gold reserves loss, a civil war. The first Papandreou prime minister was planning to install heavy industry in greece but for some reasons this didn't happen.

Dictatorship didn't have long-term plans but didn't create any economic problems, and later light industry had its growth until some socialist policies mistakes and some lack of restraint took place.

Later and specially in the Eurozone, the Capital has liberated itself from many obligations towards the country and many light industries immigrated to neighboor or 3rd world countries where workers' salaries are way below. ( i personally, remember the chairman of the industrialists association in greece (around 2003?) to recommend foreign workers to settle in greece).

 

DONT FORGET that Eurozone specifies each country's output & production. This year's greek cotton production was a good one, but it was rejected by EU, since there will not be any spinning mill but to be given to third countries.

 

"Greece should default on its debt and leave the Euro"

"The development, competitiveness and extraversion of the greek economy will come back only with the return to the national currency" Nouriel Roubini

 

It looks like the U.N.s global division of labour.

It looks like Greece is going to be a cheap tourist destination with exotic services.

 

Many say that the enlargement of the public workers number was the greatest mistake by the later goverments, but i believe the greatest was the private business character the goverments gave to the public corporations & services along with extravagances to high rank personnel.

Others mention the lack of the authorities distinction & mutual control along by civil institutions; the parliament has both legislature and executive power. So, corruption in an economist oriented state is close. Have a look at the salaries of the parliaments members and their relationships with big businessmen and both relationships with Medias.

But this shit happens everywhere...

Look at the US elections where a presidential candidate has a block of big corporations behind him for support.

Gold digging and Las Vegas dreaming...More quantity, less quality, maximum profit.

 

This, plus keep in mind procyon not everyone has to follow the german model or way of life.

 

Also keep in mind that Germany has its blame about corruption as well (towards the south). I am not talking only Siemens here but also the fact that you loan money to someone and with these borrowed many he buys your products ... So you both take a big part of your loan back PLUS he owes you the money ... This is not 'corruption' technically but I think this shows that things are not black and white.

 

As far as "respected" and "economist", it sounds like a joke when these 2 words are adjacent.

I think technically, that's corruption. That's illegal.

 

Loaning money so that they can buy your stuff...America perfected the art

To be more precise, they bomb your land so they can rebuild it..

 

 

But all the aforementioned are just and only effects. The problems' root lies here:

Greece (as most of the West) has lost its bond with the Cosmic being, the way of the living World, a true reason to live essentially. The discard of an «tribal-ethnic» cultural orientation, a spiritual culture's primacy for living purpose. The world has been de-spiritualised. Everything is about technical skills, economic "values" and commercialism.

[needle ninja]

The economic collapse of 1929-1930 in America produced a wave of belt tightening, that lead to a downward spiral and it wasn't until the New Deal of 1932 that things got any better.

The economy didn't totally recover until the industrial boom of WWII, but even bigger for recovery was the GI bill and all of the returning military buying new houses in the suburbs.

There is a lot to be said for government spending pulling a nation out of bad economic times.

[Padmapani]

Loaning money so that they can buy your stuff...America perfected the art

china is even better. the buy u.s. bonds for the dollars they make with exporting their products there. and now they made enough money with that to go shopping for companies/know-how in europe.

 

The economic collapse of 1929-1930 in America produced a wave of belt tightening, that lead to a downward spiral and it wasn't until the New Deal of 1932 that things got any better.

apperantly their didn't really learn anything from it. we had the start of the financial crisis in 2008 and still no "new new deal" in 2012.

 

another fine example of austerity policies failing completely is germany from 1930 until hitler took control. luckily the greeks show a bit more sense when voting than the germans did back then.

[Procyon]

 

another fine example of austerity policies failing completely is germany from 1930 until hitler took control. luckily the greeks show a bit more sense when voting than the germans did back then.

 

Apparently you haven't read that Greeks elected neo Nazis in this last election.

 

Here's what CNN has to say about Greece today:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/10/world/europe/greece-why-care/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

[Time_Trap]

7% but they are bound to fall I think, they are to stupid to handle this publicity. Out of which obviously the "true" neonazis are much less.

 

Anyhow it was the first time we had a leftist(not stalinist) party get 18%.

[needle ninja]

That same CNN article says that Greece is ranked around El Salvador for government corruption.

Maybe the Arab spring should extend up the Mediterranean?

[Veracohr]

apperantly their didn't really learn anything from it. we had the start of the financial crisis in 2008 and still no "new new deal" in 2012.

 

The stock market crash of 1929 and Great Depression it triggered was much worse than the recession sparked in 2008. 25% unemployment rate, whereas it peaked at 10% in 2009.

[RTP]

First of all, great thread ... good to have some greeks here to shed inside light on the situation away from the media attention.

 

As I see it, the actual problem is that none of the money Europe is lending to Greece is actually going to any of the Greek population -- it goes to the banks that have been borrowing the money to the Greeks in the form of loans in the past. Now these banks want their money back, but the Greeks can't pay. And instead of making a proposal to the Greek to pay the money back later, the banks push on Greece to get the money now. And as the Greeks can't pay and would be bankrupt, Europe is now paying for them.

And instead of the Greeks just being in the situation to face stress from the banks, they now also face stress from the other European countries forcing them to save money, because these European countries need in turn to tell their populations that the money they pay is not "for nothing".

And in the end, it all saves the banks, not the people.

 

But do we need to save the banks? Well, if not, then it would look quite bad for our money, because what the banks did with the savings we gave them is to invest it in these countries like Greece -- after all these countries pay the highest interest. But if you let go crash one of them, you let go crash the others too and in the end there would be no more and the invested money would be gone -- our money. So in the end, Europe is merely trying to save its own money with all of this.

 

But the banks, they don't need to do anything but just to lean back and make more money.

[Drosophila]

That same CNN article says that Greece is ranked around El Salvador for government corruption.

Maybe the Arab spring should extend up the Mediterranean?

 

I think this actually one of the root problems... and it's a problem that sort of bites it self in the tail. When u have corruption politicians you will have tax evasion, and when you have a major culture of tax evasion thyat at the same time "legitimate" corruption at all social levels. So if it is nepotism in getting a job or getting money under the table for avoiding the justice of law, it all boils down to the same destabilizing mechanism.. corruption (in the broadest meaning of this word)! I truly believe that this has been and are the root problem! This also go for many developing countries, but in this respect Greece is still in the same category.. and probably a major reason for not reaching the same level of social and economic standards as the more northern parts of Europe.

 

First of all, great thread ... good to have some greeks here to shed inside light on the situation away from the media attention.

 

As I see it, the actual problem is that none of the money Europe is lending to Greece is actually going to any of the Greek population -- it goes to the banks that have been borrowing the money to the Greeks in the form of loans in the past. Now these banks want their money back, but the Greeks can't pay. And instead of making a proposal to the Greek to pay the money back later, the banks push on Greece to get the money now. And as the Greeks can't pay and would be bankrupt, Europe is now paying for them.

And instead of the Greeks just being in the situation to face stress from the banks, they now also face stress from the other European countries forcing them to save money, because these European countries need in turn to tell their populations that the money they pay is not "for nothing".

And in the end, it all saves the banks, not the people.

 

But do we need to save the banks? Well, if not, then it would look quite bad for our money, because what the banks did with the savings we gave them is to invest it in these countries like Greece -- after all these countries pay the highest interest. But if you let go crash one of them, you let go crash the others too and in the end there would be no more and the invested money would be gone -- our money. So in the end, Europe is merely trying to save its own money with all of this.

 

But the banks, they don't need to do anything but just to lean back and make more money.

 

Yeah.. the banks really screws us big time again and again... and for some reason they still manage record breaking surpluses...! Dont trust banks being fair with money... thats their trade and they will come out on top if we follow their game!

[Padmapani]

 

The stock market crash of 1929 and Great Depression it triggered was much worse than the recession sparked in 2008. 25% unemployment rate, whereas it peaked at 10% in 2009.

 

i'd like to think so (and the measures the eu took certainly softened the immediate impact), but do you really think we've reached the peak of unemployment? i fear the 25% will come soon enough (spain is there already). if you look at the graph at page 3 the trend seems to point upwards still....

 

 

Apparently you haven't read that Greeks elected neo Nazis in this last election.

the neo nazis rarely have below 10% in my country (owing to the fact that they're not as open about it in public as the greek ones, they're closer to 30% than to 10% acutally), so i'm not too shocked by that.

[Veracohr]

I was only quoting numbers from the US, since the "New Deal" was an American thing. Also, even though people look back on it now as a good thing that helped bring us out, at the time it was pretty controversial and highly unpopular.