Panoptes Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 to add to Dolmot's post I'll just say that legislation regarding piracy is more agressive in USA than EU @ Anoebis - thanks for excellent insight It seems like there is nothing done in our scene to prevent piracy. Am I misinformed? Most cds are available on the web within a couple days of its release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 The web is obsolete when it comes to piracy. There are programs where you can type the track and get what you want without having to search for sites, much better in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Very interesting insights and input! Psynews is still the most adult forum out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panoptes Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 The web is obsolete when it comes to piracy. There are programs where you can type the track and get what you want without having to search for sites, much better in my opinion. I think you got the meaning of obsolete wrong. Don't dismiss the issue as a lost cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I meant with that that people will use programs to get the songs, not search them in google. They will sue filesharing programs where they share their own music collection and will download stuff from other people`s collections. I am sorry for the errors, they are caused by the fucking wireless keyboard, which sometimes works, sometimes not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I meant with that that people will use programs to get the songs, not search them in google. They will sue filesharing programs where they share their own music collection and will download stuff from other people`s collections. Actually what you wrote in #27 made perfect sense as far as I can tell (which is not to say that it's true, I wouldn't know). Not sure what Panoptes's point was. It seems like there is nothing done in our scene to prevent piracy. Am I misinformed? Most cds are available on the web within a couple days of its release. What do you propose should be done to prevent it? I would assume it's the same with most genres with a sufficiently young fan base, is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmot Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 How to put the whole topic of piracy briefly... It would take constant involvement of multiple people just to watch major www channels, let alone more shady networks. It's a giant game of whack-a-mole. Start with western blogs and YouTube which may comply quite easily. Then try to take down a Russian site but even if you succeed, you'll have one in Ukraine tomorrow and in Armenia next week. Good luck sending all those takedown requests. Non-www networks can be completely decentralised with no site to bust in the first place. Small labels simply don't have the resources for that. Only when we're discussing millions of sales/downloads, it becomes viable to hire someone to watch it all. However, it's impossible to prevent piracy entirely. Think about sending strongly encrypted files over private channels. The only way to stop it would be inspecting everyone's all communication. I wouldn't like to live in a world like that. Typically just the most popular, "your grandma could use it" one-click method of the day is really targeted. What they (parties hired by major labels) really do is trying to scare people shitless with official-looking warnings and pseudo-blackmail. Taking it to the court is actually a bad thing for your public image. Only a tiny fraction leads to any kind of consequences, ever. Your average psy label is 1-2 people, trying to release stuff on weekends while doing other jobs for a living all week. Where in that picture do you fit in sending takedown letters to Ukraine, to sites with unknown administration? While it's a bit sad, I guess tiny labels try to see the positive side which is getting advertisement they couldn't afford to buy. Maybe some day one downloader feels wealthy enough to order a CD. Besides, I happen to know that several label heads and collectors were/are involved in the warez scene themselves and many still check new releases from scene sites for convenience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracohr Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Nice info Anoebis, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taika-Kim Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Very interesting. I have run a hobby musical project since 1999 and made somewhere around 15 CDs, mostly very limited editions, and mostly spread the music free. My latest release was the first properly pressed CD. It's interesting about that around 50 persons/month sales for the CDs. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I sold that amount copies in two days after the release of the CD, but then the sales plummetted. One factor was probably that I announced on my site (the only place where you could buy the CD) that I'll be travelling for the summer and the sales are closed. During that time an error was found on the CD from a damaged master, and even though I made a new pressing, the sales never really took up, in the last year when the album has been available again, I've sold less than 10 CDs through the site. Maybe there are around 50 hardcore goaheads out there who buy all new CDs?-) In the last year there is also a growing group of people who just pay for the music on Bandcamp and don't want the CD even if I propose to send it. These people paid around 10-20€ on the "pay what you want, but at least 1€" policy so they clearly want to show their support instead of just getting the music for free. I see the question also from this point of view: How many goa fans are out there? If, Anoebis, you didn't provide a CD at all, would the final sales be anyway as high? Also your label started around the time when CD sales in the scene fell around 2000-2002 according to Finnish psy people who ran record shops. IIRC the talk was an almost total loss of sales after CD burners and soon Napster became common. I'd like a perspective from the people at TIP for example. I recall the Elysium guy saying that in the old days people made money actually selling psy CDs. The piracy is an issue for sure. And my feeling too is, that psy people in general have very low esteem for original music. In all my travels with psy people I've seen very few original CDs at all, excluding some Suntrip releases here and there (true! but then again I'm booked by goa productions in general). Consider psychedelic folk, with probably bit more mature demographics, some small home made releases sell easily 300-500 VINYLS! I'd say in more "serious" genres there are more nerdish music fans who spend their time finding and collecting new music, but in the psy scene I see many younger people just consuming the music, with much more focus on going to parties than making a hobby out of the music. But in the old days these people HAD to buy CDs if they wanted to listen to the music at all at home. Someone has a good idea what to do with around 300 unsold CDs? Oh, and around 800 promos that contain only the first CD?-) Oh, and one thing: not nearly everybody can have a paypal account, and making bank transfers makes so long that even I don't have the attention span unless I really want the CD. Consider the average student/unemployed young psy fan... No credit card = no digital downloads. So actually we should also be talking about the people for whom buying anything at all from the net is complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franki Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Do you suppose there'd be any demand for a website that kept track of current releases like Goastore/Psyshop etc. but instead of selling them itself it featured links to the relevant pages of labels' own sites? Seems like it could work, though I'm not sure about the economics of it. Conceivably labels could submit details (it would be in their interest to do so if the site took off) so maintaining it wouldn't be too much work, and there could be an option for labels to pay to have their releases displayed more prominently. Sound plausible? I don't know if it would be viable but would be useful. To be honest Psyshop & Beatspace are also good for checking releases (I've not used Goastore,) it's more the move towards self releases via Discogs & Facebook and Bandcamp that I find a problem. How do you keep track of it all? Bandcamp's o.k. if you know who you're looking for, but how do you find new releases from artists you've never heard of that you might like? On Arabesque, Psyshop etc, you can just play the samples of all the new releases that might be of interest and they're all there in one place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radi6404 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Hey Taika Kim you master, is the new stuff on your cd as good as your older stuff, which I heart 2005 or is it different? Indeed loading money on paypal takes a few steps, but after that you can get some tracks. I have to load up my paypal account to buy some new music again. maybe i will also donate on your page and get some music from you. Thr real reason wyh many young goa trance people don`t aktually buy is really, because they simply don`t have a lot of money to buy cds or mp3. Far not all of my stuff is bought, but I have tried to contribute to the scene and buy whenever I have spare money that I don`t need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taika-Kim Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 About my music, well, check out the album, it's full streamable. I think you will like at least few of the tracks that are quite pure goa. But I like to mix a lot of influences, so give the album some time http://aavepyora.bandcamp.com/album/katso-kukkaa-2 These two are mostly goa: http://aavepyora.bandcamp.com/track/silver-blossom-secrets-of-the-moon http://aavepyora.bandcamp.com/track/new-dawn Yes, actually I heard that when I was for the first time in Ukraine in 2006 and was a bit amazes by how everybody knew my music. The reason was, that on our site we had free full downloads since 2002 I think, and at that time it was almost impossible to buy trance CDs in Ukraine, and filesharing was still very primitive so I got huge downloads to there, and Russia also, because we were one of the first to offer free trance music... Thix'nDixx came about around the same time, and some tracker groups were the first of course, but if was a bit different scene... All the downloads led to a lot of publicity that can't be bought. Even though I have more listeners than ever now, there are very few downloads from the site anymore, even though all the old albums are free. So most of the sharing happens straight between people, even if the music is free. And the publicity led to shows, altough I was never so interested in playing at parties. About the next album, I'm still decding between a vinyl (just for the fuck of it), digital only, or maybe a CDR pressing of around 100 copies for fans, since there's around that much people who really want the album anyway every time. Or then maybe make only a few copies of the CD in an insanely fine packcage, and sell those to collectors at a good price, since anyway even my normal own CDs sell around 50-100€ these days About the vinyl I'm really thinking... At least in Finland they're getting really popular, I started buying them again too instead of CDs, and I love the packcaging possibilities. It's just quite expensive, at least here even a basic packing will be around three times more expensive than making a CD. But I'd love to make one anyway... It would be exciting to see how many peole actually wanted a vinyl of trance music anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taika-Kim Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 And, oh, Anoebis, don't know how much it does affect the sales and how, but like OTT and OOOD you have a very strong online presence and fan connections, I think that is bound to twist the sales in one direction or another. Maybe more hardcore loyal CD buyers and less accidental digial purchases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BraneFreeze Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 To a certain extent, piracy is driven by consumer preferences ignored by the labels. With respect to price, most of us understand that digital downloads cost the labels less than a CD. So why do many labels charge the same price for both options? If you're willing to sell a CD for 10 EUR then shouldn't digital albums be more in the 7-8 EUR range? Bandcamp data even suggests that 5-6 EUR is the optimal price for a regular length digital album, plus there's always the "name your price" option. People might be more willing to pay for music and avoid the "friction" of file sharing options if they perceive a better value proposition in digital album pricing. I understand that any price can be a real problem for some people, but I think most people understand that music producers deserve some kind of compensation for their work. With respect to convenience, many people don't want to wait for 2+ weeks for a purchase to be completed. We've all gotten used to rapid delivery from other websites (eg, Amazon) and don't have the patience to sit around waiting. It may be childish, but it's still true. Some CD buyers may be willing to wait, but I want to complete the purchase, get the music, and move on with my life. Pirate sites with digital albums make that possible when label sites fail to provide the option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS Concept Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Very good info, nice work. I think that you not 100% use power of your label. You have very nice name! I have some ideas. For example. Why you not make t-shirts of Filteria, Artifact303, RA, E-Mantra? You not need money. All you need it make nice fluoro print and find partners who can make t-shirts. Its real because you can make nice sales in your Shop. Devices for iPhone and iPad? Why not? You not need money again. Check this site: http://www.zazzle.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shpongled247 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Great article, and I am thankful to Joske and Mars for everything they have done, and somehow continue to do! If you meet Joske you will see he does it out of pure love for the scene and for goa trance! While I don't buy every release, the least i can do is plan to own every Suntrip CD in the near future to help support. Digital is great but I would love to have something to show my kids one day, even if I never play them physically. Also I would so rock a Filteria shirt, we should get some happening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Question for Joske: how does ordering from you via Discogs compare, profit margin-wise, to ordering from the Suntrip site? (The reason I just did so is because I couldn't see a way to put my address into the form on the Suntrip site; I have no street number and the flat name and number didn't fit in the street number field.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panoptes Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 What do you propose should be done to prevent it? I would assume it's the same with most genres with a sufficiently young fan base, is it not? I'm stumped. I guess there is a threshold where the resulting profit out weighs the cost of control. I have no clue how much capital it would take or even the process involved in executing such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHorse Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Many thanks for putting together this information, and of course for all the (mostly uncompensated) work on Suntrip. The physical/digital ratio is indeed a bit surprising. I thought I belonged to an old-fashioned minority with my CDs but apparently not. One explanation may be that Suntrip is notably popular among goa-heads pining for the 90s and tending to buy physical. Another is that many modern consumers skip the purchasing/collecting stage altogether and just stream on Spotify, YouTube or whatever. Limited pocket money is spent on the latest cell phone upgrade instead. Oh well, I confess buying hardware and mostly pirating bits until I got a properly paying job so nothing new there. (Also, I used to think that buying didn't really matter much as labels are doing just fine and artists are rock stars anyway, right? Then I learned about some of my favourites going under as they couldn't make 500 sales to justify a single minimum-batch pressing. That was an eye-opener. Does history repeat itself here too?) One reason is that most big digital stores were launched in the US and the content providers (that is, major labels/studios) were absolutely adamant on using country restrictions. Hardly surprising that the movement is stronger there with so much head start. Even today stuff like TV shows is released weeks or month later (or never) in other regions so people just routinely pirate it to get their goods fresh. People in Europe didn't buy for years because US rightholders simply refused to sell. How sad is that? Why didn't European companies respond with their own stores, then? Well, that's already getting off topic but it might be related to the immense fragmentation between countries, languages and smaller enterprises. Also, many of the major platforms were driven by aggressive bundling with specific hardware and content providers. Such efficient partnerships were easier to find and form in the US. Anyway, the whole matter becomes more interesting to discuss now when we have a bunch of hard figures to support (or debunk) various claims... Past times (collective): A bit wierd that CD's now (compared offcourse with past times, the 90's) are sold so "bad" (puzzling numbers): but goa is a social economy. It exists cause people (party organisers, artists, labels, party-attenders,...) all pay their stone to build the house.I think we need to keep embracing a collective understanding that we should stay out there and support eachother: like a social economy. Every "free" CD put online, someone needs to buy the CD and put it there: so music is never free...artists work hard, pay for their gear,...name it. Funny: I started collecting in '99 and bought CD's for 15 - 20 euro. Now prices of CD's went down to 5 - 10 euro and we sell less A bit ironic, music is less expensive ad sales are lower (as we compare it with the past). How managing it? I think spending tons of money on promo won't help a (goa)label much these days, not in a small genre as (psychedelic) goa. Good music always promotes itself. To bad that that as a goa label you always have to struggle extremally hard for even to go break-even (or have a small profit to pay the next release a bit). But again: patince is a virtue I suppose As I don't deny I'd like to sell more CD's of the label, to pay our artists a bigger fee: as they deserve it the most, as they are the once keeping goa a live by still making it. So that is my biggest frustration of today: artists that are the core of it all, we can't pay'm "enough" in compariisation to the long effort they make to produce an album. I feel the most frustrated about.Sell more to make more releasses and pay artists a bigger fee than now. Imho 1000 - 2000 eu for a CD that's worth listening a life time and has been worked on so hard is too little: art is worth more. So every CD I sell, makes my hart happy and jump of joy again for that reason Cause some spent 1 - 2 years on an album, and payment isn't as it should be. You can say they could compensate it with giggs, but as we all know the scene is too small for that: some guys could maybe do it, but most it still is not doable.But again: goa is a small genre. So as a label to be able to pay more, cause our income is so small (imho). Alternative? We should go to a music community where music is free, shared by the artists and we don't have labels anymore? A time where the artists press and make the art work and CD's themselves? And pay for the mastering?Try promote themselves and try selling it there on the spot? Just a thought. Role of festivals/organizers/listeners/party attenders? And maybe a less populair point of view? If big festivals and organisers give more (honest/equal) chances to "small/less known" artists, it might mean a lot for the scene to keep it a live: let the public meet more new stuff! Don't get me wrong: "I'm not against recycling the old names". But face it, they are booked cause they are famous (and have'n auro from the past); but there are so many new artists that (objectivly) produce quality as good as theirs and work so hard. So if festivals like Boom, Ozora,...name it, give themselves more time to research new goa artists and give'm more equal chances that would be a huge boost (in sales, in income for artists of this genre, ...and especially makes it grow in a positive way). Not saying old guys wouldn't play , but I feel an unbalance in the appreciation of old and new goa. Never forget all these "big" names all deserved in their past (when not bing famous) a fair chance to play,... Future (collective): Imo we share a common responsability to keep goa a live I hope it wasn't too much off topic, but these numbers made me think again some stuff. But what still really struck my mind are the low sales of digital releases! Very intersting to see: I wonder why actually it isn't higher?! Must have taken a long time to gather all info, great job to that btw! For Cronomi I (dj inada) can say this: we are working (after much patience) just break-even (finances), so no (real) proffit there yet. We are a 2 man operation (soon 3) and much work to keep it a live...as every label off course!!! Just some thoughts and no brutal truth: Very, very interesting topic!!! Goa lives and here to stay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richpa Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Role of festivals/organizers/listeners/party attenders? And maybe a less populair point of view? If big festivals and organisers give more (honest/equal) chances to "small/less known" artists, it might mean a lot for the scene to keep it a live: let the public meet more new stuff! Don't get me wrong: "I'm not against recycling the old names". But face it, they are booked cause they are famous (and have'n auro from the past); but there are so many new artists that (objectivly) produce quality as good as theirs and work so hard. So if festivals like Boom, Ozora,...name it, give themselves more time to research new goa artists and give'm more equal chances that would be a huge boost (in sales, in income for artists of this genre, ...and especially makes it grow in a positive way). Not saying old guys wouldn't play , but I feel an unbalance in the appreciation of old and new goa. Never forget all these "big" names all deserved in their past (when not bing famous) a fair chance to play,... Couldn't agree more. Good example of festival who is doing a great balance between old and new names is Connection in Spain, really glad that they're pushing very hard to present old and new goa trance in same conditions, unlike the LTF where this year you only had chance to check M-Run and Javi (i think) regarding the new goa trance musicians/lives. Hopefully in the future festival organizers will recognize the quality on 2nd wave and book more artists (glad to see that Filteria is doing great and being featured on many well known festivals, that is something that gives us a hope for the future). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 Couldn't agree more. Good example of festival who is doing a great balance between old and new names is Connection in Spain, really glad that they're pushing very hard to present old and new goa trance in same conditions, unlike the LTF where this year you only had chance to check M-Run and Javi (i think) regarding the new goa trance musicians/lives. Hopefully in the future festival organizers will recognize the quality on 2nd wave and book more artists (glad to see that Filteria is doing great and being featured on many well known festivals, that is something that gives us a hope for the future). Well, there is a very interesting shift lately... As you know we are organising a ten years Suntrip goa tour, and we have had many organisations out of non typical goa countries, who are willing to step into the project...! This means these organisations believe to have break even at least with only modern goa trance!! This is the true revolution imo... ok, they still prefer the big names (Filteria, E-Mantra, Ra, Khetzal,...) but that's logic in the end as they need enough people... For now we have parties planned with only goa-trance in: Germany, UK (!!), Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Japan, Brasil, Spain, Croatia and probably also Macedonia and Israel)! This is crazy, don't you think? So this means a broader/wider crowd is willing to listen to goa trance for real now! The more people here it, the more they will search for it, and the bigger the movement becomes! On all the other points I will react in a few days... Finally vacation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penzoline Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Nobody from finland!? :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richpa Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 That's a great initiative and I hope complete tour will be a great experience, to audience and to artists/organizers. Fingers crossed and best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Nobody from finland!? :-( Well, maybe, but nothing sure yet... Ivan: thanks! Fingers crossed indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richpa Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Well, maybe, but nothing sure yet... Ivan: thanks! Fingers crossed indeed... Maybe people can send (if they're familiar) some contacts and emails of party organizers from their country, that could be helpful, especially if you're doing a REAL TOUR (something that is common in metal genre), especially because Norway and Sweden are neighbour countries with Finnland and if you can get a good deal to cover travel expenses, booking fees and accomodation, it might be doable. I can help you with Croatia, but I'm sure Stevo already gave you a shitload of data and informations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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