How does psytrance music explore the notion of Space?

[spoke]

Hi folks, how are you doing today?

Let me present myself. I am a young artist performer who creates short dancing acts in the world of modern dance. Modern dance creations put the accent either on an energy, either on a landscape/universe/fantasy world and make art of it. Art is simply the game of representing the invisible forces of Life, it is also the game of making people dream awaken.

If trance music vision is still very absent of the pop culture (despite the ever growing community of people gathering in festivals) it is because, let's be honest, this vision of reality is in advance on its time.
To me it is the deepest and most detailed, advanced kind of music and it's logical for any music lover to one day dive into this universe.
Meanwhile, in a world where everybody is an artist and can share it's own creations(=sensibility) we are more than ever lucky to experience, talking music, a track that is not matching our expectations. I have been listening around 2K tracks of psy/goa/604/whatever and only saved 200 good tracks. The rest was crap but i guess it's a subjective question and we NEED all the sensibilities to be represented sooooo.

So yeah, because i am tired of listening crappy noisy experimental incoherently crazy or boring production i refer now to your personal knowledge and experience to build together some playlist to illustrate clearly and accurately a few concept. This is a brainstorming, this is a collective consciousness construction that refer to your own experiences and sensibility and from many personal imaginations, we can create a pop image.

I am very happy to start this new topic and i would like to begin with the notion of SPACE. Because the element of landscape is commun to any trance production, please let's try to find pieces where the focus is put on the notion of space. Here comes the few productions that make me feel space : sometimes because an echo gives the idea of huge volume, sometimes another song refers to ufo, sometimes because the energy it close to levitation, there is many possibilities..

So please join the process.

Thank you

actually i think that the echo is the most relevant effect

but energy is also very very interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcjOfNVMdAk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmI-0ZavMew

[Padmapani]

this is something where i think early 00's fullon and closely related music excels.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReugOsMbq2E

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ5JqqAOE_M

 

for a completely different view (namely from 50's science fiction kinda perspective) you'll of course have to look at eat static:

 

 

and then there's of course dimension 5 with nearly all of their tracks. especially deep space 5d, intastella and the z-principle.

[mars]

Hallucinogen's Twisted album, even though one might argue that it's the exploration of the mind

[Anoebis]

Deep Space 5D from Dimension 5 => That is pure SPACE trance for me

 

And if you are into ambient...

 

Steve Roach, that is the first I would think about when I hear "space music"

[Dolmot]

I said D5, but experts disagree...

 

On the ambient side, Nordvargr - Interstellar, because allegedly "all soundsources are of non-terrestial origin" on that album.

[Ormion]

For dance Pleiadians-FOL album is pure space music.

For ambient is Orbit Constructions-Androneda.

[Manuser]

Obvious answers are Astral projection - Dancing galaxy; Dimension 5 - Transdimensional; Pleiadians - Family of light (more space than IFO).

I would add this less known album: Evolution - Oscillating phenomena http://www.discogs.com/Evolution-Oscillating-Phenomena/master/15608

+ Zirrex - Lost in time

+ Cybernetika - The scythe of Orion

+ Darshan - Awakening

+ Toï doï - Technologic

[Scandinasia]

I think that the three main spiritual elements treated by Goa and Psy music in general are : Space, Mind and Earth.

 

All those representations are treated in very various ways.

 

The Mind is depicted accordingly to the specific emotionnal areas of the psyche (melancholy, psychedelism, dreaming, anger, madness). It also depends on the approach (more or less para-psychological). In Goa, the most powerful acts must be Hallucinogen and Crossing Mind.

 

The Earth also varies a lot. Serbian-style prog is excellent when it comes to embody the tectonic shifts of the continental mass. Khetzal is a master when it comes to Telluric Trance, since he embodies the spirituality of Mother Gaïa. Ethnic Trance and Psybient are specialized into the lore of communication with the Earth through ritual beats (Etnoscope, Hilight Tribe, Kaya Project...).

 

Space must be the wider dimension ever explored by Psytrance, since it can be a vessel theme that corroborates subjects such as : science, philosophy, onirism, rituality, ufology, etc.

E-Mantra have explored the stellar systems. Cybernetika have explored the outer reaches of Galaxy. Filteria deals with the space-time continuum. Astropilot is floating aroung a nebula cloud. Trinodia describes the invasion of the Earth. Space can be warm as a supernova, or cold as the spatial void. It all depends on the textures that are used by the artists.

The feeling of cosmic-ness can be given, in Science_Fiction themed Trance music, by a feeling of rush (precipitate melodies) underlined by warm acid loops and a tantalizing, overwhelming bassline, giving you the feeling that the whole universe is moving. It is the realm of Space Opera.

Our best example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6puFJz-ogM

 

A less warm Trance music tends to make appear a feeling of deepness, that is excellent to describe the celestial objects. Astrophysical Trance has more a feeling of watching a BBC documentary.

 

Colder means deeper.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5T1l2ZLG_U

 

I don't feel able to describe the way a Trance track feels cold or not.

 

I think it's because it sounds less organic, and more "mechanic" in some way, more detached from emotion,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azSdUQj9tbc

 

 

Floating Space Ambient. You just suspend the feeling of gravity by suppressing (most of) the beat, and you draws heavy layers with minimal melodies. You now have left the space shuttle, and between you and deep space, there is only a space suit.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfYFY3iM4Cg&list=UUpRYF3rIduXq4QJ8aXSKPVA

 

Now, retry this space suit.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDnB-DBU_dY

 

You are now one with space.

 

Hope I could help you man.

 

EDIT : A psytrance track that explores space, contrary to a track exploring Earth or Mind, emphases on an idea of vastness, of being overwhelmed by something that is all around. It sets a large-scale space around you (you identify to the core melody, which is enwrapped with many auxiliary sounds), and that space is moving at various speeds. Ludicrous Speed for Artifact303. The speed of an asteroid for E-Mantra, Elegy, Ovnimoon. A few meters per/hour for Space Ambient.

[Paul Eye]

Ludicrous Speed for Artifact303

I see what you did there

[transistor91]

It doesn't, unless you call sampling lines from cheesy sci-fi movies "exploring the notion of space".

[Scandinasia]

It doesn't, unless you call sampling lines from cheesy sci-fi movies "exploring the notion of space".

 

What about all this part :

 

 

The feeling of cosmic-ness can be given, in Science_Fiction themed Trance music, by a feeling of rush (precipitate melodies) underlined by warm acid loops and a tantalizing, overwhelming bassline, giving you the feeling that the whole universe is moving. It is the realm of Space Opera.

[spoke]

It doesn't, unless you call sampling lines from cheesy sci-fi movies "exploring the notion of space".

How deep are you zoomorph?

 

are you talking metaphysic?

 

here we are talking about the art of representing the idea of space using music as a medium. Music is vibration/sonic wave projected into space. And psy/goa music seems to be the most accurate kind of all who describe this system, it is maybe it's vocation! This notion of space has been represented trough infinity of themes from inner universe to galactic kingdoms where producers are able to create more and more sophisticated echoes effect.. it's all about space and scales, awareness of the universe.

 

But the mainstream people will not make the distinction between dimension 5 or Hallucinogen because they have to look in depth while they only consume on their level: down to earth. That's why i see goa music as a ludic way to invite people to explore other dimensions, breaking the pattern of the ego point of view.

 

I consider people on this forum and artist producer of the goa scene in general as visionary people and i believe it is only a question of time before it becomes the new mainstream.

 

We are now building a playlist of different thematics that all focus on the idea of space and you are more than welcome to give your own perspective.

[Scandinasia]

How deep are you zoomorph?

 

are you talking metaphysic?

 

here we are talking about the art of representing the idea of space using music as a medium. Music is vibration/sonic wave projected into space. And psy/goa music seems to be the most accurate kind of all who describe this system, it is maybe it's vocation! This notion of space has been represented trough infinity of themes from inner universe to galactic kingdoms or producers are able to create more and more sophisticated echoes effect.. it's all about space and scales, awareness of the universe.

 

But the mainstream people will not make the distinction between dimension 5 or Hallucinogen because they have to look in depth while they only consume on their level: down to earth. That's why i see goa music as a ludic way to invite people to explore other dimensions, breaking the pattern of the ego point of view.

 

I consider people on this forum and artist producer of the goa scene in general as visionary people and i believe it is only a question of time before it becomes the new mainstream.

 

[Padmapani]

It doesn't, unless you call sampling lines from cheesy sci-fi movies "exploring the notion of space".

if you narrow your definition of music expoloring space just a tiny bit more, you arrive at silence, because there's no sound in space. or alternatively if you think of spaceships the sound of something like a refridgerator crammed into a tiny metal box.

 

 

@spoke

nicely spoken

but i think you're too optimistic about it becoming mainstream.

[transistor91]

But the mainstream people will not make the distinction between dimension 5 or Hallucinogen because they have to look in depth while they only consume on their level: down to earth.

Down to earth as opposed to where... head in the clouds? Coming from the 10th dimension? Sitting in room 303 of the mental hospital?

 

That's why i see goa music as a ludic way to invite people to explore other dimensions, breaking the pattern of the ego point of view.

People are free to imagine themselves as exploring other dimensions, but I can see no rational reason to believe that this isn't a pure fantasy on their part. Similarly, people are free to go to church and imagine themselves talking to God or they can pray in front of a temple and stick needles through their tongues to combat their "ego". The amount of delusions that have evolved in humanity is great -- and that's a beautiful thing, and life wouldn't be as rich or maybe even possible without them -- but you're just one more person representing one more delusion as though it's some kind of ultimate truth. I find that narrow-minded. I consider it more honest and intelligent in these modern times to admit that we don't know the truth or if there is one, and to be skeptical of everything, and to at least stay in disbelief for as long as possible. This is what separates the rare individuals from the mainstream: the mainstream (which includes you) are happy to believe the first delusions that they stumble across. Here is my personal bias, and you can see from the previous quote how it compares with yours.

 

here we are talking about the art of representing the idea of space using music as a medium.

This is highly dependent on culture, upbringing, etc. For example, try representing "the idea of space" through music (or any other medium) to people who do not have such a concept or idea in their vocabulary or minds. It will be impossible.

Goa/psy music might make western audiences think of space for a few reasons:

1. Track titles, album art, and sci-fi samples in the music are about space. This is the most obvious and common way. It uses language, which relies on the fact that we all have a common dictionary and vocabulary, to directly set the theme.

2. Playing on our personal/cultural conditioning. This applies especially to established listeners of goa/psy music. Since we've learned to associate certain sounds with space concepts, those sounds are included in the music to remind us. Another example is using sounds that are typical or reminiscent of sci-fi movies.

3. Because we currently mystify space (in lieu of gods, which where more mystified in previous eras). This means that we'd have a tendency to frame new and unknown experiences and sounds in that way.

Ultimately, "the idea of space" (beyond the empirical boundaries of our personal experiences on planet Earth) is just a delusion or a fantasy that we have. I don't think any goa/psy people are astronauts or would really care about that kind of space -- silent and lifeless. At best, our ideas of space are thought experiments (ie. as much of sci-fi) in which we try to imagine a world much different than our own, yet still comprehensible to us -- seemingly unlikely, but nonetheless fun, entertaining, and challenging to do.

Music is vibration/sonic wave projected into space. And psy/goa music seems to be the most accurate kind of all who describe this system.

I agree that music is a recording of (and a reproduction of) a vibration through space. But it's non-sense to say that one genre can be more "accurate" than another. The accuracy of the recording depends only on the equipment used to record the original sound.

If you mean the accuracy of describing space, then goa/psy is really far from it, because, as another user mentioned, there is no sound in space, and goa/psy has a lot of sound in it. If you mean the accuracy of evoking sci-fi images, then I agree that goa/psy music is effective, but I think ambient music is much more effective (albeit less interesting to many people who just wanna do drugs and dance). Most other genres don't care to try.

This notion of space has been represented trough infinity of themes from inner universe to galactic kingdoms or producers are able to create more and more sophisticated echoes effect.. it's all about space and scales, awareness of the universe.

These aren't musical and they're not about "scales". They're based in our language and conveyed via science fiction writing. Music only comes by and loosely attaches itself to the concepts later on, once they're well established.

Here's an interesting experiment: If you take away the artist names, album titles, artwork, track titles, and sci-fi samples and listen to the music, can you even tell whether it was originally conceived to be about space or not? I doubt it. It often amazes me when I listen to music which makes me dream about something and then I check the track title and it was about something entirely different. Try it. Maybe if your head is so far in the clouds every song will be about "space" to you, even if it was originally created to represent the operation of a sewing machine on boring planet Earth.

I consider people on this forum and artist producer of the goa scene in general as visionary people and i believe it is only a question of time before it becomes the new mainstream.

 

We are now building a playlist of different thematics that all focus on the idea of space and you are more than welcome to give your own perspective.

You must believe that humanity is destined to become more intelligent, then, rather than destined to become stupider (which seems like the current trend) (assuming that intelligence is required to appreciate more complex, dense, and layered music). You must also believe fundamentally in some sort of universal morality (otherwise you wouldn't care about the "mainstream", or rather, you'd even be repulsed by it). In my view, this makes you not very intelligent, as I think the evidence suggests that those two points are practically mutually exclusive.

By the way, artists and producers of music shouldn't be idolized so heavily. They really aren't that special. There are many good artists across the genres and in all areas of life beyond music. There are also many mediocre and bad artists, even in goa/psy music, which has its fair share of crap around.

 

Final words: what you've typed in this thread so far is a whole lot of meaningless jibberish. You should really go to church some day to see what Christians think about worship music. You sound the same way as them, just about goa/psy music instead. Maybe that would help you snap out of it and back into reality.... Blah blah space, blah blah dimensions, blah blah I'm a deep, spiritual person so my sentences don't have to be comprehensible. Do some more drugs, bro!

[spoke]

@zoomorph

So you are the guardian of the right values who tell others what they have to believe.

I believe humans are intelligent. They work and evolve together. Intelligence is the capacity of understanding phenomenons first seen in nature and to reproduce them afterwards into different closed systems. There isn't such a thing as more intelligent than intelligent. Mathematics, language, emotions, technologies are all equivalent mediums to express the current comprehension of nature. All together they form reality and so a shared system of values to communicate correctly. It becomes also the matter to compose and figure out new possibilities we can't initially capture with our 5 senses. Sometimes it doesn't apply so we change the values in depth... Ultimately is it the process of making a way into life. It's application is to imagine, have visions, and create with knowledge. With fantastic thinking, human gave birth to concept such as mobil phones, then they express it trough the medium of "science fiction movies", later with the medium "technology". From fire to wifi, we can only be fascinated by this incredible journey into discoveries and disillusions, this journey into science !
And here is your only one brilliant thought by admitting that there isn't such a thing we can call truth. Indeed you perceive that all this systems are constantly evolving. Everything is vacuity! Isn't it one universal morality? This pattern of perpetual disillusions is symbolised by the ying and the yang, as the vortex of knowledge (light) going over ignorance (darkness) through time and space. The static image of it represents just one paradigms which is under the light of intelligence at a moment and is destined to go back into the darkness of unpracticality the next moment. What a mind blowing perspective! That explains so many thing in just one picture. This is art, It is knowledge but first it was fantasy.

Maybe when you are talking new dimension you are referring to the "new age" philosophies establishing the ether as the invisible dimension that humans could integrate and so express telepathy, clarity viewing and all this branch of supernaturalistic minded powers (6th sens) that have only their places in science fiction movies from your static perspective. You feel frustrated to not be able to understand this technics and so reject them but don't worry society will express it trough another medium later like a technology so you will be mind blowed anyway. I think this year scientist have done teleportation of a particule and are using computer interfaces to capture the manifestation of telepathic messages. From my personal experience i have lived and witnessed it so it is now part of my reality.
So being skeptical about it it just talking to say nothing. More dangerously, condemning this branch of intelligence is closing the door to a vaste universe of possibilities, discoveries, progress. It is cutting a tree at its tronc so you are never able to collect its fruits. I am sure you got this easy picture that shows how narrow minded you are.

Your point is that my place is in a mental hospital because, as religious people or drug addicts, i am just having some fantastic interpretation of reality who finds no echoes in science and by trying to represent one vision that i perceive (the act of creating art) naively as an ultimate truth, i can only be a narrow minded idiot, i don't even know the right terminology therefor i should stop expressing my thoughts and feelings immediately.

First of all, as you expected, naturally, i am shitting in your mouth right now.
Second, i was introducing the perspective of space from a different point of view than down to earth and many people get the idea of observing this space to describe how music happen in it, in opposition to "just experience" it through our 5 senses. There is nothing religious,occult,psychedelic in this, it is just an application of intelligence. As a dancer, i see space as the canvas where life happens, the framework to create. I enjoy filling it with my presence and play with it, occupy it, It is a pretty interesting perspective.
And this introduce the vision of many spiritual people around the world. By choosing the point of view of the creator filling space, we are designing our own lives, creating experiences we WANT to live. This is my philosophy and i believe it is the right answer for a pop culture that is sinking in a destructive consumerism but rational system.
Third, i think in images not in words, and actually i am not talking in my language. However i will not give the supremacy of any languages over others. It is deny that they are thousands of dialects out there with a different system of values. This is another narrow minded mentality that can conduct to fascism.

To Conclude:
You see space as something defined and you consider any recreative artistic creation attempting to represent it's role in reality as a one way to the mental hospital. With this statement you are condemning almost all the creatives thinkers, religious and spiritual people who represent easily half of the world population. Your are limiting your vision to the empirical borders of your own language and you reject other cultures with different values.
It's not surprising that you can't find any rational reason (because now reason can be irrational hahahahaha you are such a clown) to use goa music as a new system to connect with space. I could give a thousand but it doesn't worth it.

So you can only stay on your chair while creative thinkers open for you the doors of perception, and reveal another disillusion that will give birth to a new system and ultimately a new word. From that you will be able to express yourself. I am sure it's easy for everyone to see the gap between visionary people (who are not that special indeed there are just humans with another purpose that yours) and you.

Your are just a pretentious character.

Why being such a asshole when you could use the same space to express joy? or love!!

Sorry it is obvious that you have no idea of the dimension where love happens.

[Scandinasia]

Down to earth as opposed to where... head in the clouds? Coming from the 10th dimension? Sitting in room 303 of the mental hospital?

 

People are free to imagine themselves as exploring other dimensions, but I can see no rational reason to believe that this isn't a pure fantasy on their part. Similarly, people are free to go to church and imagine themselves talking to God or they can pray in front of a temple and stick needles through their tongues to combat their "ego". The amount of delusions that have evolved in humanity is great -- and that's a beautiful thing, and life wouldn't be as rich or maybe even possible without them -- but you're just one more person representing one more delusion as though it's some kind of ultimate truth. I find that narrow-minded. I consider it more honest and intelligent in these modern times to admit that we don't know the truth or if there is one, and to be skeptical of everything, and to at least stay in disbelief for as long as possible. This is what separates the rare individuals from the mainstream: the mainstream (which includes you) are happy to believe the first delusions that they stumble across. Here is my personal bias, and you can see from the previous quote how it compares with yours.

 

This is highly dependent on culture, upbringing, etc. For example, try representing "the idea of space" through music (or any other medium) to people who do not have such a concept or idea in their vocabulary or minds. It will be impossible.

Goa/psy music might make western audiences think of space for a few reasons:

1. Track titles, album art, and sci-fi samples in the music are about space. This is the most obvious and common way. It uses language, which relies on the fact that we all have a common dictionary and vocabulary, to directly set the theme.

2. Playing on our personal/cultural conditioning. This applies especially to established listeners of goa/psy music. Since we've learned to associate certain sounds with space concepts, those sounds are included in the music to remind us. Another example is using sounds that are typical or reminiscent of sci-fi movies.

3. Because we currently mystify space (in lieu of gods, which where more mystified in previous eras). This means that we'd have a tendency to frame new and unknown experiences and sounds in that way.

Ultimately, "the idea of space" (beyond the empirical boundaries of our personal experiences on planet Earth) is just a delusion or a fantasy that we have. I don't think any goa/psy people are astronauts or would really care about that kind of space -- silent and lifeless. At best, our ideas of space are thought experiments (ie. as much of sci-fi) in which we try to imagine a world much different than our own, yet still comprehensible to us -- seemingly unlikely, but nonetheless fun, entertaining, and challenging to do.

I agree that music is a recording of (and a reproduction of) a vibration through space. But it's non-sense to say that one genre can be more "accurate" than another. The accuracy of the recording depends only on the equipment used to record the original sound.

If you mean the accuracy of describing space, then goa/psy is really far from it, because, as another user mentioned, there is no sound in space, and goa/psy has a lot of sound in it. If you mean the accuracy of evoking sci-fi images, then I agree that goa/psy music is effective, but I think ambient music is much more effective (albeit less interesting to many people who just wanna do drugs and dance). Most other genres don't care to try.

These aren't musical and they're not about "scales". They're based in our language and conveyed via science fiction writing. Music only comes by and loosely attaches itself to the concepts later on, once they're well established.

Here's an interesting experiment: If you take away the artist names, album titles, artwork, track titles, and sci-fi samples and listen to the music, can you even tell whether it was originally conceived to be about space or not? I doubt it. It often amazes me when I listen to music which makes me dream about something and then I check the track title and it was about something entirely different. Try it. Maybe if your head is so far in the clouds every song will be about "space" to you, even if it was originally created to represent the operation of a sewing machine on boring planet Earth.

You must believe that humanity is destined to become more intelligent, then, rather than destined to become stupider (which seems like the current trend) (assuming that intelligence is required to appreciate more complex, dense, and layered music). You must also believe fundamentally in some sort of universal morality (otherwise you wouldn't care about the "mainstream", or rather, you'd even be repulsed by it). In my view, this makes you not very intelligent, as I think the evidence suggests that those two points are practically mutually exclusive.

By the way, artists and producers of music shouldn't be idolized so heavily. They really aren't that special. There are many good artists across the genres and in all areas of life beyond music. There are also many mediocre and bad artists, even in goa/psy music, which has its fair share of crap around.

 

Final words: what you've typed in this thread so far is a whole lot of meaningless jibberish. You should really go to church some day to see what Christians think about worship music. You sound the same way as them, just about goa/psy music instead. Maybe that would help you snap out of it and back into reality.... Blah blah space, blah blah dimensions, blah blah I'm a deep, spiritual person so my sentences don't have to be comprehensible. Do some more drugs, bro!

 

 

My dear gentleman, with all the respect due to a fellow psynewers, and though i do agree on certain points, i must react to some of your views and express my own feelings in order to contradict you.

 

Then, here are a few of your claims that, if I understood them correctly, I can't agree with :

 

First point :

 

About this statement of yours :

 

People are free to imagine themselves as exploring other dimensions, but I can see no rational reason to believe that this isn't a pure fantasy on their part.

 

People are free to believe in what they want. Indeed. Mr. Spoke has the right to believe in invisible forces that surrounds reality. You have the right to consider that the best way to understand the universe is a rationnalistic approach. So be it. We are all free, and you yourself claim that we're free when it comes to such subjective views.

But in the same time, you yourself are being narrow-minded and self-centered. According to what you write, your rationalistic, de-mystified approach is correct, and other views aren't. OK, no problem with that, after all, that's a creed. But what, my good Sir, gives you the right to mock those who don't share your views ?

People experiencing mystical experiences are being delusional ? They should go to the asylum ? Pious Christians worth mockery because they are eager to deal with their God ?

It seems to me that - judging by the brutality of your reaction - you are being intolerant and unrespectful.

There are as much absurdity in being rationalist as in being a believer, an atheist or a polytheist. By no means it is a more legitimate approach of reality, and many intelligent, wise (and non-fanatic) persons would mock your view as well as being absurd and delusional.

 

Some people have experiences. Sometimes it is a mere illusion produced by their ego. Sometimes it is not. Who can say ?

 

And I also refutate your statement that because of his mystical approach of music, Mr Spoke is being a mainstream guy. Mainstream is consumerism. Undergroundess is the search, the exploration of creativity, of art, of new perspectives. It is also a refusal of the end products such as delivered by the mass market of entertainment.

The fact that Spoke is looking for something spiritual inside the music, that he elaborates a thinking over it, that he can't be satisfied by the current trend of commercial consumption of music can't make of him someone that belongs the mainstream world.

Not saying either that mainstream is necessarily a bad thing.

 

Second point :

 

You claim that the representation of space in psychedelic music is only but an a posteriori construction of the consumer. That the music itself is meaningless and that it is the mind of the listener that will fill it with its own representations.

I agree on the part that says that the listener theirself add its own feelings and representations to the songs. Of course.

But it seems to me as well that the music itself contains pre-established narrative schemes and emotions that are no less valuable that one's own perceptions.

 

I'm currently listening to that famous track by Artifact303 that I quoted hereabove. I will here admit and confess that even if I recognize Mr Zsolt to be a great artist in the realm of Science-Fantasy, I don't think that even once he sent me into space, even with the cheesy (and so cool !) vocal samples contained by the track. Actually, he makes me dive in a very natural Fantasy world : see of clouds, castles, dragons, medieval cities, mountains, falls, and never-ending temperate forests. Organic and magical landscapes.

 

Because this is my own feeling.

 

However, something inside the music, that was meant to say something, can't be altered.

 

You shall first consider that the Goa masters are artists. Artists create. A painter such as Delacroix painted obras that embodied ideas. For instance, here is La Liberté guidant le Peuple (Liberty guiding the people) :

 

 

 

Both you and me can have our own understanding of the picture, our own interpretation, in the same way that I interpret Peter Zsolt's science-fiction to be a Fantasy universe.

But the language of the artists can't be erased by subjectivity.

 

No one can deny that the lady holding the flag is an allegory for the idea of Liberty. No one can deny that the painting is meant to represent a battle, with characters engaged into a fight.

 

Though it seems more abstract, it also applies to music. The language of the artists, though subject to many interpretations, remains. And a red thread inside the music, that you can choose to ignore or not, is set in order to lead you to a story.

 

In Beyond Lightspeed, the very dynamic of the song is hard to be ignored. It deals with supraluminic journey. It is a song that embodies speed, energy, travel and delirium.

All those elements are still present in my own approach. No one either can listen to this music and pretend that it makes them think of slowness.

 

And without the presence of red threads within the songs of the Goa Masters, I wouldn't have been able to redact my previous thread (Epicness of the Goa Masters).

 

Now, let's go further. We have admitted that there is a pre-established sense within some Goa Trance songs. Why couldn't that sense be related to the feeling of spacey-ness.

 

You say that

 

Here's an interesting experiment: If you take away the artist names, album titles, artwork, track titles, and sci-fi samples and listen to the music, can you even tell whether it was originally conceived to be about space or not?

 

As I said, most people won't think about space, even if some schemes issued by the artist's will remain into their listening experience.

But I also do believe that a few people can and will understand the feeling of space in the tracks.

 

For instance, I always knew that E-Mantra's track Transneptunian Objects was about astrophysics.

 

However, when I listen to it, I don't only understand this track with my intellect. I feel it with my guts.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivElJlaWPig

 

Indeed, some of the sounds inside the tracks really make me feel as if I was a probe launched at several thousands miles/hour that graze celestial objects, and that feeling was so intense that sometimes I can feel (rather that understand ) the planetary mass of the Transneptunian objects, and here, I know that I'm communicating with E-Mantra's universe rather than with my own representations.

 

Final point :

 

Goa/Psytrance is not that a special music, and it's no more special that other musics. We give too much importance to the artists (we "idolize" them).

 

Why wouldn't be Goa Trance more acurate when it comes to space representation ? Isn't it a music based on Science-Fiction ? Haven't the movement elaborated and designed sounds that were meant to be spacey ?

 

Goa Trance aims to stimulate the imagination in order to create precise feelings.

 

 

If you mean the accuracy of describing space, then goa/psy is really far from it, because, as another user mentioned, there is no sound in space

 

Oh come on ! That's a lame argument. If there is no sound in space, then the best way to figure it out is to enclose myself in a sonic-isolated room ?

Goa music uses common representations of celestial objects (planets, asteroids, starships, nebula... as well as the ideas of distance, void and stellar radiations) and translate them into equivocal sounds. Is it that hard to understand ?

 

Void is pictured by ambient layers, and planets can be embodies by acid loops or spacey melodies.

 

One final thing : about the statement that Goa can't be a special mystical music.

 

Music has power. It is amditted that some musics in particular have virtues that affect both mind and body.

Musico-therapists cure some diseases with specific sounds, such as Bach or Beethoven.

 

Why couldn't Goa music have some virtues as well, able to make you explore spiritual dimensions (whatever you mean by that) ? Why couldn't it affect you in order to streghten the spirituality, or the imagination of one's individual ?

 

It is a hypnostising music that burry itself into the subconscious. You just have to read the topic of people hearing Goa Trance into their night-dreams or day-dreamings to understand it. It goes far into one's mind, and we can assume that it has consequences.

 

And I myself have used Goa Trance songs such as ones by Toï Doï or E-Mantra to help my mind in difficult times. There are songs that makes me feel brave and gives me energy when I'm so hopeless and desperate that I can't get up from my bed. Somes songs can do that.

 

And what makes me consider as well that Goa Trance have something special is that there are songs that, as I were in a normal condition, made me cry of emotions, and one's ego can't fake that.

 

Of course, I don't worship Trance music. I don't pray the Goa artsits. I don't idolaze them.

 

They provide me a music that fills me with something. And that something helps me to move on with my life.

 

This is why I can but agree with Spoke statements. Does that make me a delusionnal person, or a mental person ?

[transistor91]

More dangerously, condemning this branch of intelligence is closing the door to a vaste universe of possibilities, discoveries, progress. It is cutting a tree at its tronc so you are never able to collect its fruits. I am sure you got this easy picture that shows how narrow minded you are.

Your inability to express yourself clearly or logically makes me highly suspicious of any claims to possessing a special branch of "intelligence".

 

Your point is that my place is in a mental hospital because, as religious people or drug addicts, i am just having some fantastic interpretation of reality who finds no echoes in science and by trying to represent one vision that i perceive (the act of creating art) naively as an ultimate truth, i can only be a narrow minded idiot, i don't even know the right terminology therefor i should stop expressing my thoughts and feelings immediately.

There are countless people similar to you who spew yourselves on the rest of us like diarrhea, offending us with your vulgarity. I'm sure you'll never be lonely.

 

Why being such a asshole when you could use the same space to express joy? or love!!

Because my love and joy are precious. Only a few earn them.

 

To my mind, all mystical experience is accompanied by a certain anguish, or at least anxiety. There's nothing like that here.

[spoke]

There are countless people similar to you who spew yourselves on the rest of us like diarrhea, offending us with your vulgarity. I'm sure you'll never be lonely.

 

I feel like a black guy trying to sit in front of the bus.

 

thank you for your clear analyse of the idea of space in the western world, the rest is just venin and out of this topic.

[transistor91]

But what, my good Sir, gives you the right to mock those who don't share your views ?

I give myself the right. Meanwhile, you guys value universal tolerance and respect. You act shocked that I don't value the same? And you imagine yourselves nimble dancers...!

 

And I also refutate your statement that because of his mystical approach of music, Mr Spoke is being a mainstream guy. Mainstream is consumerism.

That's one perspective on it. There are others. Mainstream is popular; it's statistically defined. For example, a morality of universal tolerance and respect is mainstream. To comfortably settle down in your way of thinking in life is mainstream.

 

Undergroundess is the search, the exploration of creativity, of art, of new perspectives. It is also a refusal of the end products such as delivered by the mass market of entertainment.

I consider that a superficial definition. Undergroundness is deeply personal. It's ripe with contradictions. It is not easy, nor can it be trivially defined or captured. There are various levels of undergroundness. Unfortunately, most people occupy the easiest levels and are too pleased with themselves as soon as they've reached one. Only the rarest individuals continue to dig deeper and deeper throughout their lives, never settling.

 

You claim that the representation of space in psychedelic music is only but an a posteriori construction of the consumer. That the music itself is meaningless and that it is the mind of the listener that will fill it with its own representations.

I agree on the part that says that the listener theirself add its own feelings and representations to the songs. Of course.

But it seems to me as well that the music itself contains pre-established narrative schemes and emotions that are no less valuable that one's own perceptions.

The basic question I'm addressing is: what does this music provide for us?

 

It provides a trip. It's similar to a drug. That we interpret that trip as having anything to do with "space" is due to our cultural understanding. It could just as easily be the music of sewing machines or of noisy electronic boxes or of crying dolphins to a person of a different culture or with a different set of concepts, beliefs, and associations built into their mind.

 

Second question: does it matter what it provides?

 

These are deeply personal questions. My comments here are not to be taken dogmatically or as answers.

 

However, something inside the music, that was meant to say something, can't be altered.

Music is a language of its own which can share emotions between people of a similar culture and understanding. That it meant to say something can't be altered any more than that: an English novel meant to say something, a novel in a forgotten and incomprehensible language meant to say something, and an abstract impressionist painting meant to say something.

 

No one can deny that the lady holding the flag is an allegory for the idea of Liberty. No one can deny that the painting is meant to represent a battle, with characters engaged into a fight.

I don't see why we couldn't deny those. We don't because of our cultural and historical understanding.

 

Here's an image that I have no clue what it was supposed to mean:

 

Imagine the person who painted that one looking at yours. It's unlikely that they would understand the allegory in the same way that we do.

 

Though it seems more abstract, it also applies to music. The language of the artists, though subject to many interpretations, remains. And a red thread inside the music, that you can choose to ignore or not, is set in order to lead you to a story.

Great works of art are personal. They tend to appeal to us when they express something that we identify with and understand, or when they express us. But they can also appeal for completely different reasons. For example, I can appreciate the painting above or Indian music despite almost certainly not understanding it in the way its creators did.

 

For instance, I always knew that E-Mantra's track Transneptunian Objects was about astrophysics.

 

However, when I listen to it, I don't only understand this track with my intellect. I feel it with my guts.

As I mentioned, in my personal experience, I've heard many tracks that I did not feel to be about space until I read the track title. Track titles are like movie synopses -- they heavily bias us and can even ruin it for us! If you have the opportunity to randomly shuffle through thousands of tracks that you're not too familiar with and listen to many without knowing the title in advance, I'd recommend it.

[transistor91]

double-posted

[transistor91]

Why wouldn't be Goa Trance more acurate when it comes to space representation ? Isn't it a music based on Science-Fiction ? Haven't the movement elaborated and designed sounds that were meant to be spacey ?

As I said, Goa Trance may be more effective at reminding us of science fiction (often through direct samples of sci-fi lines). That was my very first, brief response in this thread. But I would not say that science fiction is equal to space.

 

Goa music uses common representations of celestial objects (planets, asteroids, starships, nebula... as well as the ideas of distance, void and stellar radiations) and translate them into equivocal sounds. Is it that hard to understand ?

I said as much in my previous post. It uses track titles that refer to science-fiction (and science-reality/astrophysics) to attach itself to celestial objects and so on. A lot of ambient music does the same, yet sounds completely different. Rock music could just as easily title itself after stars and galaxies, too. The only reasons it might be less successful are cultural ones: because rock music is already well-ingrained and established, and because the relatively-mainstream fans of rock music are probably not as interested in science-fiction as we are.

 

Void is pictured by ambient layers, and planets can be embodies by acid loops or spacey melodies.

That's all in your imagination. Other listeners would certainly think it differently. As would many of the artists and creators.

 

One final thing : about the statement that Goa can't be a special mystical music.

 

Music has power. It is amditted that some musics in particular have virtues that affect both mind and body.

Musico-therapists cure some diseases with specific sounds, such as Bach or Beethoven.

 

Why couldn't Goa music have some virtues as well, able to make you explore spiritual dimensions (whatever you mean by that) ? Why couldn't it affect you in order to streghten the spirituality, or the imagination of one's individual ?

 

It is a hypnostising music that burry itself into the subconscious. You just have to read the topic of people hearing Goa Trance into their night-dreams or day-dreamings to understand it. It goes far into one's mind, and we can assume that it has consequences.

 

And I myself have used Goa Trance songs such as ones by Toï Doï or E-Mantra to help my mind in difficult times. There are songs that makes me feel brave and gives me energy when I'm so hopeless and desperate that I can't get up from my bed. Somes songs can do that.

I've never denied this. Of course Goa Trance and all music affects our brain and our environment, which in turn affects the way we think or perceive things, which could be called "therapy", I suppose, for those looking to be "cured", or could just be called "experience". And I highly recommend it, but I don't want to over-value it -- there are many other great and diverse experiences that are required to create an intelligent and perspicacious individual. Goa Trance alone seems to only create a dancing-obsessed, drugged up hippy who can scarcely type a coherent thought or express himself without reciting cheesy, mystical mumbo-jumbo.

 

They provide me a music that fills me with something. And that something helps me to move on with my life.

Just keep this in mind: just because something was the cure for you doesn't mean it's the cure for everyone. Goa Trance could just as easily be a cancerous disease that destroys some people as it happened to cure you. And that's assuming that it did cure you! Maybe it's a sweet, charming, but deadly flower drawing you near the precipice of your destruction. A matter of perspective?

[spoke]

 

Just keep this in mind: just because something was the cure for you doesn't mean it's the cure for everyone. Goa Trance could just as easily be a cancerous disease that destroys some people as it happened to cure you. And that's assuming that it did cure you! Maybe it's a sweet, charming, but deadly flower drawing you near the precipice of your destruction. A matter of perspective?

 

People are good so ultimately they will design trip that make them feel good or amazed them. At least it's only this kind of trip that will become popular: uplifting, mixing cultures...

I do not know anyone interested in craziness or self destruction except you. I associate this with isolation and troubles. That's why people do the complete opposite, they gather and dance together for exemple.

You could have share your music, you could have join the exchange, but no you prefer killing the vibe by attacking me on ridiculous definition. Here is all your perspective/personality being expressed.

You are like this sociopath who stay beside the dance-floor to hate people dancing... at a dance party!

[transistor91]

People are good so ultimately they will design trip that make them feel good or amazed them. At least it's only this kind of trip that will become popular: uplifting, mixing cultures...

I do not know anyone interested in craziness or self destruction except you. I associate this with isolation and troubles. That's why people do the complete opposite, they gather and dance together for exemple.

 

You could have share your music, you could have join the exchange, but no you prefer killing the vibe by attacking me on ridiculous definition. Here is all your perspective/personality being expressed.

 

You are like this sociopath who stay beside the dance-floor to hate people dancing... at a dance party!

Imagine that... someone not dancing at a dance party, eh? Incomprehensible to your mind. They must be insane!

 

And of course no culture could ever appreciate any music that wasn't uplifting, because "people are good" -- whatever that means.

 

I must be an evil sociopath. Argument dismissed.

 

Geez, you have an infantile perspective on the world. Sorry for killing your vibe, but maybe you should grow up.

[spoke]

This is highly dependent on culture, upbringing, etc. For example, try representing "the idea of space" through music (or any other medium) to people who do not have such a concept or idea in their vocabulary or minds. It will be impossible.

 

While humans will develop this notion by hearing noises for the first time, learn to walk or observe the stars it the sky, you ignore simply the cognitive approach to narrow it to a rational definition. Like a robot.

You are aggressive against people with different believes.

You try to isolate me, to humiliate me.

You misread my words in order to achieve your goals.

You are exceptionally intelligent and i bet you have a huge ego.

 

It sounds like an antisocial person, from here to sociopath there is only a small step: It is said sociopath will not feel any remorse about hurting others.