Richpa Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Thank you for this post Richpa. However, I think it's maybe not fair to make comparisons for so many reasons. Let me list those first and then give my interpretation of these masterings. So the first thing is that, as I have learned, the mix is 90% of the final sound. Goa Overdose 2 was released in 2011 and who knows how old the track is. The point being that Celestial Intelligence has probably changed their production a lot over the years. This could account for an overall change in sound. Second, each one of these tracks were asked to fit the overall sound of the albums they appeared on, a product of many artists and many styles. Third, there is of course what the label wants of the music they release. So then I think the best comparison here would be to look at these tracks from the perspective of how each masterer generally approached Celestial Intelligence's sound. Which final product fits the artists' intentions the most? My answer in general would have to be Tim Shuldt with Deimos not far behind. I cut Trogdor the Burninator some slack because he has had to master some pretty shitty mixes on tracks from "artists" who practically don't know what they are doing, who may or may not post on these forums, and may or may not be posting in this very thread at this very moment. Of course mix is a crucial thing and for sure some labels tend to point out how they prefer their releases should sound to the mastering studio, however, I still think that no matter the fact how different mixdown was on certain releases, the masterer is the one who will dictate how harsh or loud the track will sound in the end, right? I'm not saying anything against Tim's work, I still think he's the one of the best around, however, I can't say that overall sound and feel of PE is natural, to my ears it's not, and in certain moments it is too loud. If you listen to example that I posted from Hado's compilation, where Tim also did mastering, that doesn't sound that much harsh. I'm saying again, I'm not an expert and I don't handle the technical terms well, but even on my speakers I can notice the difference. To give you an example, few days ago when I recieved first previews for JaraLuca release and final mastered versions, similar thing happened, Stryder experimented with some weird 3D fx's and whatnot and it was just too loud, the basslines went crazy and you couldn't recognize the original lines, kick was also distorted. We had to change the approach to the mastering for the sake of the music and sound. Not saying that this is the same case here, just that sometimes you got good(enough) mixdown ready for mastering and the mastering studio can take the sound to totally different level, sometimes to a positive, sometimes to a negative level(s). However, I'm really not a picky person (even the only issue that I had with mastering was the famous and horrible 'Suncokreti' case), and on the PE album, I think it's not bad mastering, it's just too loud and I really doubt it got anything related to mix itself (see previous releases by CI). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exotic Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 So is the label or the artist that has a final say in the matter in the case of a single artist album ? Surely cant be the label dictating terms then ... Maybe CE wanted to sound like this . Maybe it isnt made for earphone listening the way filteria isnt . I for one would not have it sound like cosmic dimension. The final mix just sounds like weak sauce not musically speaking . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest antic Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I for one would not have it sound like cosmic dimension. The final mix just sounds like weak sauce not musically speaking . Well, hopefully there's happy middle between 'weak sauce' and 'tongue-burning acid' then Maybe CE wanted to sound like this . Maybe it isnt made for earphone listening the way filteria isnt . BTW, there's no such thing as "not mastered for earphone listening" - actually one of the primary goals of mastering is to make the record sound as good as possible on wide range of devices, from crappy radio & hi-fi, tablet/phone speakers, through headphones to large sound systems. If sound is properly balanced / equalized and dynamic range is adequately utilized, then you can always enhance / reduce the frequencies to your liking and it will sound good both quiet and very loud. If however a recording is over-compressed (little difference between loud & quiet sounds) and over-saturated (certain frequencies are emphasized) then there's very little you can do to correct that without severely reducing the quality of the sound. In this case the album is made to sound very loud, noisy & aggressive and while I like such music, I don't always want to feel like I'm at a party. 90% of my music listening is over headphones at work or in the evening while reading, so I appreciate balanced mastering where I can finetune the sound to my liking. And so far 95% of Suntrip's releases were like that (even Filteria, albeit just barely...), so I'm curious what happened here and disappointed, because the music is otherwise really good but the way it's recorded prevents me from enjoying it fully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemmiwinks Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Just gotta love all those posts on mastering... did it ever occur to any of you that your own hearing might be damaged from all the years of blasting psytrance at full volume? Over-sensitivity to certain frequencies is a tell-tale sign of partial hearing loss you know... Anyway, back to the album itself... umm am I the only one finding too many similarities with Filteria aka "let's throw lots of random arpeggios on top of a really fast kick and make a track out of it"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest antic Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Just gotta love all those posts on mastering... did it ever occur to any of you that your own hearing might be damaged from all the years of blasting psytrance at full volume? Over-sensitivity to certain frequencies is a tell-tale sign of partial hearing loss you know... Did it ever occur to you that if we can hear the difference between mastering of same-style albums from same label, then what you said is not true? Even better - consider, that if you CAN"T hear those differences, it's probably YOUR hearing that's impaired since you obviously cannot distinguish those nuances... Alternatively, you don't care about those differences (which is fine, btw) but then it's strange you decided to chime in with your valuable contribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemmiwinks Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Did it ever occur to you that if we can hear the difference between mastering of same-style albums from same label, then what you said is not true? Even better - consider, that if you CAN"T hear those differences, it's probably YOUR hearing that's impaired since you obviously cannot distinguish those nuances... Alternatively, you don't care about those differences (which is fine, btw) but then it's strange you decided to chime in with your valuable contribution. it's a common misconception that partial hear loss simply means that you can't hear some frequencies... quite on the contrary, it means that your brain is trying to compensate the partial hear loss by over-amplifying the frequencies that close to those you can't hear. So instead of turning the volume up because you can't hear something, one has on the contrary the tendency to turn the volume DOWN because they percieve certain frequencies as being too harsh, which is precisely what you guys are complaining about... But don't take my word for it, feel free to research the problem on the web. PS Given the amount of time we all have spent listening to LOUD music during our childhood, I think it's pretty safe to say that we ALL suffer from some form of partial hear loss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnb820 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Anyway, back to the album itself... umm am I the only one finding too many similarities with Filteria aka "let's throw lots of random arpeggios on top of a really fast kick and make a track out of it"? Maybe a little, but I feel the melodies here have a bit more direction and structure than your average Filteria melodic phrase. And the kicks here are nothing like Filteria's. they are fatter, more decay, heavier, less click. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penzoline Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Just gotta love all those posts on mastering... did it ever occur to any of you that your own hearing might be damaged from all the years of blasting psytrance at full volume? Over-sensitivity to certain frequencies is a tell-tale sign of partial hearing loss you know... Anyway, back to the album itself... umm am I the only one finding too many similarities with Filteria aka "let's throw lots of random arpeggios on top of a really fast kick and make a track out of it"? lol so the problem is with our ears? I'm surprised I didn't see this one coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemmiwinks Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 lol so the problem is with our ears? I'm surprised I didn't see this one coming. i've seen veterans in the scene complaining over and over again about production that's "too harsh", was thinking about raising the question a while ago but don't come here too often anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest antic Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 it's a common misconception that partial hear loss simply means that you can't hear some frequencies... quite on the contrary, it means that your brain is trying to compensate the partial hear loss by over-amplifying the frequencies that close to those you can't hear. So instead of turning the volume up because you can't hear something, one has on the contrary the tendency to turn the volume DOWN because they percieve certain frequencies as being too harsh, which is precisely what you guys are complaining about... But don't take my word for it, feel free to research the problem on the web. PS Given the amount of time we all have spent listening to LOUD music during our childhood, I think it's pretty safe to say that we ALL suffer from some form of partial hear loss... Wow, you really only picked up those parts of my post that fit your narrative, didn't you? If I - and others - had hearing problems, we'd complain about all new-school goa, but I clearly said I have no problem with mastering of 95% of Suntrip's other releases and others demonstrated that Celestial Intelligence's tracks released elsewhere (or heck, even on Suptrip's own "Ten Spins Around The Sun"!) sound OK compared to the album at hand. And regarding research - feel free to use the web to learn about loudness war and how quality of mastering degraded over the years. Also, I believe with age people hear less and less of high frequencies, so actually in few years Celestial Intelligence's CD might bother me less than now Waiting for inevitable "stop complaining, support the scene and be grateful for yet another new-school goa CD!" that's so prevalent here recently to close the gap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHex Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Wow, you really only picked up those parts of my post that fit your narrative, didn't you? If I - and others - had hearing problems, we'd complain about all new-school goa, but I clearly said I have no problem with mastering of 95% of Suntrip's other releases and others demonstrated that Celestial Intelligence's tracks released elsewhere (or heck, even on Suptrip's own "Ten Spins Around The Sun"!) sound OK compared to the album at hand. And regarding research - feel free to use the web to learn about loudness war and how quality of mastering degraded over the years. Also, I believe with age people hear less and less of high frequencies, so actually in few years Celestial Intelligence's CD might bother me less than now Waiting for inevitable "stop complaining, support the scene and be grateful for yet another new-school goa CD!" that's so prevalent here recently to close the gap i must admit ..im one of them having problems with my ears years ago i had a terrible accident making music on headphones and because of a fucked up error in a synth a very powerful noise knock me on the floor ..i almost faint even today i still have problems with hi freq ... why i tell you this? because some days ago a person said that he loves Nemsis but he felt like my hihats were too loud well..thats the reason ..i have the need to raise them cuz i cant fkn hear them proper ..it sux another point/ we have different sensitivity but i can tell you this.. when u have so many layers (goa ) even with flawless mixing always there will be some small problems in mastering ofc progressive and fullon will be more clear and more pleased for ears (bass /kick /one lead and some fx xd-and track is ready ) and regarding the discussion above..i remember back in my youth i was listening all day a goa trance project named: Lasertrancer - they had most of their tracks with very big distorsion /the sound was so messy but in the same way i kinda like the feeling:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest antic Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 why i tell you this? because some days ago a person said that he loves Nemsis but he felt like my hihats were too loud well..thats the reason ..i have the need to raise them cuz i cant fkn hear them proper ..it sux Haha, well that does explain it - I needed some time to adjust to very sharp sound of your last CD, but it's nowhere near as bad as CI's album. Probably, because ultimately it is easier to accomodate to loud trebles, than to overemphasized mids - the lower in frequency you go, the worse it sounds if a lot of layers occupy the same / neighboring frequencies. CI's music is full of acid & synth swilrs and emphasizing that makes it difficult to bare, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemmiwinks Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Wow, you really only picked up those parts of my post that fit your narrative, didn't you? If I - and others - had hearing problems, we'd complain about all new-school goa, but I clearly said I have no problem with mastering of 95% of Suntrip's other releases and others demonstrated that Celestial Intelligence's tracks released elsewhere (or heck, even on Suptrip's own "Ten Spins Around The Sun"!) sound OK compared to the album at hand. And regarding research - feel free to use the web to learn about loudness war and how quality of mastering degraded over the years. Also, I believe with age people hear less and less of high frequencies, so actually in few years Celestial Intelligence's CD might bother me less than now Waiting for inevitable "stop complaining, support the scene and be grateful for yet another new-school goa CD!" that's so prevalent here recently to close the gap hmm yeah don't take it personnal, it was more of a general post aimed to all those complaining about "harsh mastering" that I've seen lately ("lately" meaning more like over the last year since I don't come here often anymore ). I personally suffer of such hearing loss which is the reason why I almost never blast music at full-volume the way I once did and cannot even consider going to a party without some hearing protection (that is, means of turning the music DOWN rather than up...) Waiting for inevitable "stop complaining, support the scene and be grateful for yet another new-school goa CD!" that's so prevalent here recently to close the gap you won't be hearing that from me, IMO Ka-Sol, Khetzal and to a lesser extent Merr0w were the last artists to bring newschool to new levels, everything else was simply using the same formulas over and over and over again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 i remember back in my youth i was listening all day a goa trance project named: Lasertrancer - they had most of their tracks with very big distorsion /the sound was so messy but in the same way i kinda like the feeling:) Well said, mate! Here, Celestial Intelligence is loud, go-for-it music. I would not call it messy by any means but it is pretty massive and "I kinda like the feeling," too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaza Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I saw CI live in Croatia and they were epic. It does the business on proper systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormion Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 So I listened to it as well and it's actually pretty good. I'm really happy that less and less goa rtaists leave behind that sunshine floatness and go for the edge. However I have two problems with it. It seems like all tracks share teh same presets. The bass, the synthlines, the kick, it's like different variations of the same track. The second one is something that happens in most of the newschool Goa for me. There are plenty of melodies, but none is memorable. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels like that. Overall it sounds great. I hope Suntrip to go to this direction, edgier, less floating, less sunny, more fractal and with defined melodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOnAcid Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 There are plenty of melodies, but none is memorable.I dont think so. There are melodies, which are memorable for me. Examples: 1:47 - 2:26, 3:19 - 4:11, 4:26 - 5:05 in Anapa 4:17 - 5:11, 5:38 - 6:32 in Celestial Beings 2:58 - 3:26 in Perpetual Energy and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopie Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I dont think so. There are melodies, which are memorable for me. Examples: 1:47 - 2:26, 3:19 - 4:11, 4:26 - 5:05 in Anapa 4:17 - 5:11, 5:38 - 6:32 in Celestial Beings 2:58 - 3:26 in Perpetual Energy and so on. +1 It's a very good album, the melody structures are in fact what makes this release stand out. I listened to it a lot of times and really can only wonder what the fuss is with the mastering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoebis Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Overall it sounds great. I hope Suntrip to go to this direction, edgier, less floating, less sunny, more fractal and with defined melodies. The Prana remixes are mostly acidic and more darkish for sure... Same with the upcoming Denshi Danshi album which is much more crazy stuff from the 90s We also have a new release ready by someone who sounds so koxbox Dragon Tales but with some more melodies, that my friends couldn't believe it was NOT koxbox! More info on that soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptn Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 We also have a new release ready by someone who sounds so koxbox Dragon Tales but with some more melodies, that my friends couldn't believe it was NOT koxbox! More info on that soon I've been waiting for more than decade to read sentence like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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