When the splendid marks of history are erased by venomous ignorance

[Scandinasia]

Yes. It was nowhere near as bad as what ISIS are doing.

 

It was, but on a tinier scale. Like, not a whole country. But still.

[technosomy]

The English didn't wipe out mankind's history. We stole it, and put it in musea.

 

 

In light of recent events, perhaps it wasn't such a bad idea.

 

 

i'll agree with that.. but their intention has always been to keep as much of it hidden/buried from us.. in case we figure out what really happened

and what is really going on

[Rotwang]

i'll agree with that.. but their intention has always been to keep as much of it hidden/buried from us.. in case we figure out what really happened

and what is really going on

At least this guy knows what's really going on:

 

[technosomy]

At least this guy knows what's really going on:

 

i am always weary of strange people in suits who drive icecream trucks!!

and weird triangle hats!!

[technosomy]

just stumbled accross this article

 

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/03/08/the-hidden-history-of-the-incredibly-evil-khazarian-mafia/

[Scandinasia]

The main techniques of conspiracy theorists :

 

_every major event in History is actually the result of occult forces ; History is a lie, and its true nature is an obscure followings of plots and secrecies that only a "non-conventionnal view" can reveal and aknowledge

_be hypercritical regarding the medias, the doxa, historic researches and the scientific community, and be hyper-trusty when it comes to the sources supporting your own views. Most of the sources are biased, distorted, or simply not given.

_magical thought. the conspiracy theorits are appealing by using the most profound parts of the collective imaginarium : in the Western and Eastern world, the monotheistic imaginarium is fully exploited (Book of Apocalypse, Prophetic hadiths,...) to revive the fear of the idols, and present the Egyptians and the early civilizations of Mesopotamia as a source of ongoing evil. Emotions rather than arguments.

_they adress either people with poor education in terms of History, Science or culture, often not able to build up a reflexive insight about sources of informations, or people who live in a cultural background with a strong religious belief (and thus more sensitive to some imaginary themes : United States, Muslim community, etc.)

_"if you refuse to embrace my view, you're part of the plot/blind to the world"

[technosomy]

interesting theory

but if you had been in caves in the central desert here in australia, or deciphered sumerian scrolls, or had a near death experience.. or even been on a

space ship... you may think differently

that is why articles like that have more credibility than one thinks, but that is why it's great to be human.. as we entitled to our own opinion

[Scandinasia]

Actually, I reproach to this article to not giving sources, and to rely on a solo individual who had, by himself, discovered the secret mechanism that had moved human history for centuries.

 

I've read tons of conspiracies, and everytime, the guys make the very same statements, but names change. Who want to control the world through a massive plot undermining worldwide politics ? So far, I've read : America, the Satanists, the Jews, Free-masonry, Muslims, Protestants, the Illuminati, the communists, the homosexuals and the aliens.

 

So, when I read another guy using another time the same tricks, I just read to have fun.

 

However, that doesn't mean that common views of the world shall be admitted as well. Hidden motives lead the politicians, but rather than believing that they are led by dark mystical forces embodied by human troops standing on the stage, I believe that they are merely motivated by the most basic instincts and passions : power, money, hatred.

 

As for the free-masons. Not an osbcure ideology filled with hellish beliefs, but a network connecting the politicians, the jet-set and the socio-economico-artistic elite. Hence, a treacherous movements because of a system of alliance defending the interests of the richer over the poorer.

 

And as for considering that mystical powers do reign on this world, I agree and admit that some phenomenons and powers beyond the human realm can and do interact with our lives, but it's not a reason for becoming un-reasoning and to agree with biased statements and unsane people building up fake theories.

The satanist guys do exist. But they don't lead any massive movements. They can't have a large influence. Most of them sacrifice cats on saturday night for the sake of feeling cool. Others do nasty things, but they don't lead nations. The socio-economic developpement of our society is far more serious that these cults.

[Panoptes]

Its odd to see someone from Croatia talking about no threats when you have acquired hundreds of US army surplus armoured vehicles from Afghanistan...

Also posting links to putins propaganda channel RT news release does make you look like pro-RuSSian propagandas victim.

 

But thats ok, there are no RuSSian troops in Ukraine, there are no RuSSian tanks and artilerry in Ukraina, sure, sure, only evil Ukrainian nazi's eating russian speaking babies alive and drinking their parents blood for breakfast, give me a fucking break! You better post RuSSian racist victim body pictures, videos of people being stabbed in RuSSia just because they are of different color!

Dont post pictures of people defending Ukraine from RuSSias invasion portraying them all as nazi, you posted pictures of one volunteer battalion, number of people there - squad to platoon, not the whole battalion, not the whole volunteer movement in Ukraine, not the whole armed forces of Ukraine, not the whole nation of Ukraine!

 

 

 

Anyway, I totally dissagree about no external threat to Europe and NATO, there is one major threat from the outside on the northern side of Europe and that is RuSSia, always has been, always will, unless people there change from their USSR sheep mentality with fake history to realistic nation with honest view on their blood, violence, rape filled nations past!

 

Those 120 vehicles will be distributed among Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia along with 3000 US troops which isnt much, but still sends signal to bloodthirsty RuSSia that they shouldnt mess with Baltic states.

Yes there is information warfare between NATO and Russia. Both have a plethora of propaganda. Crying about someone "falling" for the Russian propaganda machine while suckling off the teat of Western propaganda just makes you look a little silly.

I wouldn't understate the role of the azov battalion in the Ukrainian conflict. From my understanding according to sources such as vice and others, they happen to be one of the only units formidable enough to fight back against the russian backed rebels/russian military. I recommend you watch the whole Russian Roulette series.

Also it isn't atypical for the west to back neo-fascist groups in order to achieve political ends; they've done so historically speaking many times. I wouldn't pin the blame solely on Russia considering NATO's eastward expansion via sponsoring and toppling the russian backed Ukrainian regime which used to serve as a sort of buffer state between the blocks. NATO and the US are actively seeking a monopoly on global hegemony and it would be foolish to expect other geo-political players to just roll over and take it.

[technosomy]

 

 

oh yeah this really looks like a kids hand doesn't it!

 

 

what a load of cods wallop!!

[Richpa]

Also it isn't atypical for the west to back neo-fascist groups in order to achieve political ends; they've done so historically speaking many times. I wouldn't pin the blame solely on Russia considering NATO's eastward expansion via sponsoring and toppling the russian backed Ukrainian regime which used to serve as a sort of buffer state between the blocks. NATO and the US are actively seeking a monopoly on global hegemony and it would be foolish to expect other geo-political players to just roll over and take it.

Very well said. There is no bad or good guys here, but expansion of NATO towards Russia can be seen from Russian point of view as an direct threat and I understand them. After the fall of Soviet Union, there was an agreement about that but we all know who decided not to respect it.

 

[remnant]

Reger, I really don't support foreign policy of my country, and you got right, it does look odd. Not only when it comes to military related things such as sending our fellow country-man to other countries to fight or support someones interests, choosing sides in conflicts that don't relate to us (I believe, that no one should choose sides), but also their general decisions about sell-out of natural resources to corporations, suspicious privatization of strategically important companies, destroying the working middle-class, giving enormous benefits to banks, supporting TTIP agreement, and many other things which are slowly and silently destroying the society and creates more poverty.

 

I agree so much. Corruption and decadence, and the undermining of cultural principles by this jungle technoeconomism is far worse enemy than any obscurantist fanatics. I have explained this here.

 

I remember an iraqi jihadist with rage and cries in his eyes threatening the west for all the evils the americans did to him, to his family and his land. And this is the power that the halifat has.

The jihadists, ofcourse, surpassed any measurement of rage and dignity because they are not motivated by reactionism or by patriotism but only by a perverse theocratism which also inspires likeminded foreigners who hate the western policies too but also the european culture or any "heathen" one. They became much worse than their predecessors in tyranny, whoever these were, Hussein or Blackwater army.

Examples of this insane perversion inside its own corpus are many like the ad loc stonings for ridiculous "reasons" and the parade & spectacle-like executions oftenly intentional.

 

Now they are threatening to destroy the Ghizeh Pyramids by saying “it is time for Muslims to erase the pharaoh’s heritage”. It's more obvious that the world has now to deal with a "cancer". And it's not the first time as in 2001 Taliban blowed apart 2,000 years of Buddhist history.

 

Generally, islam hasn't been, what we say, a tolerant doctrine towards other cultures, if it hasn't used raw force through its history, its influence and effect would be quite small in the world.

With the exception of Sufism, which is indeed a cultivation with its roots to be found in Zoroastrism & eastern neoplatonism, islam as a doctrine doesn't varies so much as it has been said. There are not evil violent muslims and good pacifist muslims, but muslims totally attached to the "Quoran" and muslims more open & liberal, political, or more "ethnic" based.

 

The whole "arab spring" along with the islamoextremism growth is a so peculiar and obscure situation, though evenmore odd is the apathy of the nato and "security coalition" towards the expansion and the consolidation of islamization in Libya, Nigeria and Iraq contrary to their rush to strike light-islamic or secular regimes like the one of Syria.

It's really so suspicious like the american & western foreign policy follows a secret agenda to reform the world replacing the stability of UN ethnic-type/independent states with black bloody chaos. Their foreign policy has proven much more than dissapointing over the decades.

[Scandinasia]

 

Now they are threatening to destroy the Ghizeh Pyramids by saying “it is time for Muslims to erase the pharaoh’s heritage”. It's more obvious that the world has now to deal with a "cancer". And it's not the first time as in 2001 Taliban blowed apart 2,000 years of Buddhist history.

 

Generally, islam hasn't been, what we say, a tolerant doctrine towards other cultures, if it hasn't used raw force through its history, its influence and effect would be quite small in the world.

 

I am in complete disagreement with your statement, Mustafa.

You assume that jihadism is attached to the core of Islamic tenets, but that's not right.

 

Regarding archaeological sites, the Quran is pretty clear. It explains Allah has wiped out from the surface of the Earth the early pagan civilizations, and that the remnant of their cities constitute signs for the believers. Those archaeological signs are to strenghten the faith of the Muslims, and they are called to witness those signs in order to be convinced by the truth of Islam.

 

40:21 :

 

Have they, then, never journeyed about the earth and beheld what happened in the end to those [deniers of the truth] who lived before their time? Greater were they in power than they are, and in the impact which they left on earth: but God took them to task for their sins, and they had none to defend them against God.

 

11:100

 

This account of the [fate of those ancient] communities - some of them still remaining, and some [extinct like] a field mown down - We convey unto thee [as a lesson for mankind].

 

Islam is the antithesis of idolatry and polytheism. If the Muslim world destroys the history of idolatry and polytheism, the very idea of Islam is in peril. If you don't know what is an idol, how can you be prevented from worshipping it ?

That must be one of the reasons for which the very first caliphs protected, or at least, didn't destroy those places. You will also notice that those caliphs, who are held by the Sunnis to be perfect examples of believers, maintained those sites. None of these sites were destroyed during the very long and movemented History of Islam. And today, they are being destroyed by violent people who also kill muslims and blow up mosques. How can one say that this is Islamic ?

 

You also states that these sites are being destroyed due to an "inner Islamic intolerance" towards outer cultures.

 

Do you know what were the first sites destroyed by the Islamist ideology ? The vaults of the Companions of Muhammad ! The very first believers, martyrs and free men, who are held by every single muslim as what a muslim should be, were deprived of their tumbs by these people !

 

And last year, ISIS even destroyed the vault of a prophet ! It was the vault of Jonah ! What is less Islamic than disrepecting a prophet of Islam ?

 

So, before destroying the history of others, they began by destroying their own history ! This has nothing to do with Islam being "intolerant" with other cultures.

 

And if you study the period called Islamic Golden Age, you will have to study a very particuliar phenomenon, called translatio studiorum. The "translation the the studies" was the phenomenon of translation, study, commentary and appropriation by the Muslim world of the greco-roman legacy, especially in terms of philosophy.

 

It is the Muslim world that preserved the legacy of Plato and Aristotle to the Renaissance West. They even preserved the poems of Sappho, the first poet of Europe ! And di you know who burnt down the library preserving this poem ? The Crusaders.

 

I also call to your attention that so far in History, it is the Western world who has destroyed the more sites. In Andalus, in China, in South America, in Egypt, they destroyed, when not stealed, many remarkable monuments.

 

And do you realize that if ISIS destroys so much sites, it is because there are so many of them in the Muslim world ! How do you explain that there are so many them even today, who date back from - 2000 BCE ! Weren't they carefully preserved to be still visible today ?

 

Final remark :

 

 

There are not evil violent muslims and good pacifist muslims, but muslims totally attached to the "Quoran" and muslims more open & liberal, political, or more "ethnic" based.

 

That is false as well. The Muslims who are the most attached to the Quran call themselves the Quranists. These people reject all the hadiths, which, constitute the backward litterature justifying the backwardness of today's Muslim ideologies.

 

The Quranists are far more progressive than the Sunnis, and because they are so progressive - as they only follow the word of the Quran rather than the tenets of Arabic standars (no lapidation, music allowed, no killing homosexuals, etc.) - they are being rejected by the Islamists ! People who follow the Quran in the purest way are called apostates by these people !

 

The fact is that you have prejudices towards Islam, and that these are wrong. But what is worst is that the Muslims themselves held the very same prejudices regarding Islam and Muslims.

 

The Quran isn't read by the mass. Or its reading is biased by propagandists. It is not Islam that causes so many commotion. It is the corruption of Islam that does.

[remnant]

Regarding archaeological sites, the Quran is pretty clear. It explains Allah has wiped out from the surface of the Earth the early pagan civilizations, and that the remnant of their cities constitute signs for the believers. Those archaeological signs are to strenghten the faith of the Muslims, and they are called to witness those signs in order to be convinced by the truth of Islam.

 

40:21 :

 

Have they, then, never journeyed about the earth and beheld what happened in the end to those [deniers of the truth] who lived before their time? Greater were they in power than they are, and in the impact which they left on earth: but God took them to task for their sins, and they had none to defend them against God.

 

11:100

 

This account of the [fate of those ancient] communities - some of them still remaining, and some [extinct like] a field mown down - We convey unto thee [as a lesson for mankind].

 

Sorry, but this kind of argumentation looks more like to direct to believers and converts. Especially with the selection of specific excerpts as representatives of the whole text or dogma.

 

The most important, Quran is a perception of the world which seems not to accept physical diversity, the diverse of personalities, faiths, tribes, cultures, thus it uses the term "Kafir", infidel. The word of the Prophet is undeniable and suits to every man and woman in the world.

I don't know about jihadism and i'm not blaming blindly, but the more literally you accept and follow the Quran (or stricter tenets) the more hostile you might become to other faiths and negative to research.

 

Let me say it again, if major expressions of islam (or just Sunnism) hasn't used raw force through its history, its influence and effect would be quite small in the world. The Quranist perspective you evoke looks quite minor and has been renounced.

The only muslim country i know that the ethnic religion is tolerated is Iran for various reasons.

 

What it is marked as "islamic golden age" i think it's more fair to be revised as an Arab/Persian one. Further, enlightened spirits like Averroes were denounced for their beliefs and efforts, and persecuted. There is also a historical controversy about the fate of the alexandrian library or what remained of it.

 

Umayyads

The first period of transmission during 8th and 9th centuries was preceded by a period of conquest, as Arabs took control of previously Hellenized areas such as Egypt and Syria in the 7th century.^%5B17%5D At this point they first began to encounter Greek ideas, though from the beginning, many Arabs were hostile to classical learning.^%5B18%5D Because of this hostility, the religious Caliphs could not support scientific translations. Translators had to seek out wealthy business patrons rather than religious ones.^%5B18%5D Until Abassid rule in the 8th century, however, there was little work in translation. Most knowledge of Greek during Umayyad rule was gained from those scholars of Greek who remained from the Byzantine period, rather than through widespread translation and dissemination of texts. A few scholars argue that translation was more widespread than is thought during this period, but theirs remains the minority view.^%5B18%5D

Abbasids

The main period of translation was during Abbasid rule. The 2nd Abassid Caliph Al-Mansur moved the capital from Damascus to Baghdad.^%5B19%5D Here found the great Persian Library with texts containing both Greek Classical texts as well as texts from ancient India. Al-Mansur ordered this rich fund of world literature translated into Arabic. Under al-Mansur and by his orders, translations were made from Greek, Syriac, and Persian, the Syriac and Persian books being themselves translations from Greek or Sanskrit.^%5B20%5D

Owing to the legacy of the 6th century King of Persia, Anushirvan (Chosroes I) the Just had introducing many Greek ideas into his kingdom.^%5B21%5D Aided by this knowledge and juxtaposition of beliefs, the Abassids considered it valuable to look at Islam with Greek eyes, and to look at the Greeks with Islamic eyes.^%5B18%5D Abassid philosophers also pressed the idea that Islam had from the very beginning stressed the gathering of knowledge as important to the religion. These new lines of thought allowed the work of amassing and translating Greek ideas to expand as it never before had.^%5B22%5D

Baghdad's House of Wisdom

The Khalif al-Mansur was the patron who did most to attract the Nestorian physicians to the city of Baghdad which he had founded, and he was also a prince who did much to encourage those who set themselves to prepare Arabic translations of Greek, Syriac, and Persian works. Still more important was the patronage given by the Khalif al-Ma¢mun who in A.H. 217 (= A.D. 832) founded a school at Baghdad, suggested no doubt by the Nestorians and Zoroastrian schools already existing, and this he called the Bayt al-Hikma or "House of Wisdom", and this he placed under the guidance of Yahya b. Masawaih (d. A.H. 243 = A.D. 857), who was an author both in Syriac and Arabic, and learned also in the use of Greek. His medical treatise on "Fevers" was long in repute and was afterwards translated into Latin and into Hebrew.

The most important work of the academy however was done by Yahya's pupils and successors, especially Abu Zayd Hunayn b. Ishaq al-Ibadi (d. 263 A.H. = A.D. 876), the Nestorian physician to whom we have already referred as translating into Syriac the chief medical authorities as well as parts of Aristotle's Organon. After studying at Baghdad under Yahya he visited Alexandria and returned, not only with the training given at what was then the first medical school, but with a good knowledge of Greek which he employed in making translations in Syriac and Arabic.^%5B23%5D

Later the Caliph Abdallah-al-Mamun had also sent emissaries to the Byzantines to gather Greek manuscripts for his new university, making it a center for Greek translation work in the Arab world.^%5B21%5D At first only practical works, such as those on medicine and technology were sought after, but eventually works on philosophy became popular.^{%5B24%5D%5B25%5D}

Most scholars agree that during this period rhetoric, poetry, histories, and dramas were not translated into Arabic, since they were viewed as serving political ends which were not to be sought after in Arab states. Instead, philosophical and scientific works were almost the entire focus of translation. This has been disputed by a minority of scholars, however, who argue that stories such as Arabian Nights carry clear parallels to Greek literature—evidence that many Arabs were familiar with Greek humanities more than is thought.^%5B26%5D

 

And yes, the western perspective has commited ethnocides, destructions and plunders in europe and around the globe, but this wasn't of a different nature of muslim atrocities, although in the later centuries these were driven mostly by greed.

[reger]

The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Yes, it is.

However, my country, with such retarded neighbour as RuSSia cant stay out of NATO and wont be able to remain independent and keep its unique culture and language without spending 2%+ of GDP to strengthen our military. RuSSia throughout history has proven that the only language it understands is straight to the point words that are backed up by some decent military power.

Without that, until RuSSia becomes civilised country, were doomed to fall into stinky brown bears paws to be torn apart. They already tried to just that during soviet occupation times.

Its odd to see someone from Chroatia, country which has gone through pretty lots of shit with its not so friendly neighbours, agitate against countries military spendings.

How else do you plan to keep thy enemies at bay?

 

I never said anything like that, you're over-reacting and you're missing my point here. Problem here isn't single nation, it's something that each country should deal with and I personally think that most countries nowdays still got problems with racism or for example islamophobia. Providing a weapons to a bunch of racists and neo-nazis isn't solution, wherever they come from. It will only make things worse.

I know you didnt say that, but I had to say to set things straight, far too many folks living in delusions regardin RuSSia and its affairs with its neighbours trying to shift responsibility to everyone else but Putin and its groupies.

Regarding weapon in hands of neonazis - did you really expect that with the military of their size there will be no extremists of any kind to be found among troops there?

As long as they dont commit genocide and similar atrocities and stick to ROE and Geneva conventions, I couldnt care less if they are neonazi wannabe's or red commie grandsons.

 

1)Don't be funny. 2)I'm sure you're familiar about the mercenaries from other countries who are fighting in Ukraine. Yes, even from Croatia. 3)Why they're fighting there? a)To defend people or b)because of money? 4)Ever heard about Blackwater? 5)Is in your book definition of defending when someone is bombing civil-areas? 6)Check your facts my friend, it's not all white and black. 7)This issue and conflict should be solved between people of Ukraine and no one else.

1)Im not.

2)Yes, I know there are people from around the world fighting at both sides, so? Its been like that in all wars throughout history, thats nothing extraordinary, its norm, especially these days when many local conflicts are fought with hands of merc's.

3)A-some want to help people of Ukraine to fight against RuSSian invaders and RuSSian backed terrorists, separatists, scum, and idiots who fell into trap of pro-putinist propaganda. Some also believe, that Ukraine is fighting the war not only for itself, but also for Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and if Putin will not be stopped in Ukraine, he will move on onto Baltic states.

Some other genuinely believe that they are fighting against "fascists, hunta" of Ukraine, at least thats what they are told they are fighting against and so they do...

 

B-some fight for money, especially on RuSSias backed side, given the enourmous amounts of resources RuSSia is pouring into East of Ukraine to pay its own soldiers who "take vacation and volunteer to fight" in Ukraine and to pay local drunktards and brainwashed zombies to fight against elusive nazis and reptiloids of Ukraine!

 

4)Yes, Ive heard, so what? Are they operating in Ukraine just the way they were in Iraq?

 

5)In my definition, when there is a war, civilians have little choice but leaving the theatre ASAP.

It is also DUTY of civilians to inform any combatant, regardless of their origins, that its illegal to locate weaponry, artillery, bases and basically operate from within or nearby civilian objects such as living quarters, schools, hospitals and so on. If civilians stay in such area, it is their sole responsibility share together with military located near their homes, about what comes next, when the opposing side returns fire.

Its pretty simple, its pretty logical and only side to blame for bombed civilian houses, schools, hospitals is the one who placed their weapons there and fired them from these locations. The response fire is normal thing to do, its how wars are being fought, its what war rules, ROE etc are written for.

Unfortunately RuSSias backed terrorists arent keen on neither keeping up with Geneva conventions, nor any sensible ROE or cease-fire's.

Seriously, have you read a bit or two on wars and and rules of engagement, martial law, Geneva conventions?

I suspect that if you would, you wouldnt ask such a question regarding bombing of civilian areas.

Oh and one more thing - the most shocking bombings were done by RuSSias backed terrorists where there were no Ukraine military forces present.

 

6)What facts are we talking about here? Care to point them out for me please?

 

7)Agree, tell that to Putin, tell him to pull all his troops and arms out of Ukraine. Until that happens Ukraine can buy whatever weaponry they can put their hands on and/or pay military advisors to train their troops.

Unfortunately, from the very beginning of RuSSIa planing this operation, it has never been meant to be internal conflict between citizens of Ukraine, RuSSia planned it out really well, starting with seizure of Crimea.

 

Well you have right to have your opinion. 1)Russia might be threat to imperialistic agenda of certain powerful people who are determining the fate of millions, but for sure it's not threat for common people like you and me. 2)For a country which got enough of military power and nukes to bomb out complete planet 10 times, you really think that 100 vehicles are there to protect? 3) No my dear friend, it's sheer provocation, just to show that disease called NATO won't stop. Situation is slightly different tho, 4)Russia isn't Afghanistan, Lybia or Iraq and 5)Putin is different breed of statesman, very calculated. 6)Sometimes I imagine situation how would US goverment react in case Russia provided weapons to Mexico for example and send their troops to parade 300m from US border. 7)Don't be naive and brainwashed.

 

P.S. - 8)Some people from Russia comes to Psynews you know, writting nonsense like RuSSia might be offensive to them, there is no need for such things.

1)Yeah, tiny little Baltic states have big, imperialistic ambitions regarding conquering the whole world and forcing people to celebrate Latvian Song And Dance Festival, power to dance and song, sing and dance or die, infidels! As soon as we get RuSSia out of our way, were on our way to global dominance in this area!

2)100 vehicles are here as a way of message not to mess with NATO. 10 vehicles would be enough, if Baltic states would stick to 2% of GDP and modernise their militaries instead of singing the same old mantra about 5th paragraph being the holy grail. There is such thing as acceptable loss and it has little to do with number of nukes or soldiers potential enemy might possess. The more aggressor bleeds, the higher risk of it being torn up from inside, when nation realises that far too many of its sons return home in coffins or crippled and money runs out and peoples lives are getting more miserable day by day because some retard in Kremlin wants to rebuild RuSSias borders the way they were during USSR nightmare period.

3)At this time and place, NATO, which you call a disease, is, for now, the best security there is, for quite a few countries, especially smaller ones bordering with RuSSia. Once there is alternative, we might as well see those countries either leave alliance or see alliance itself falling apart or transforming according to modern day tasks.

4)Well, in fact, it is - bloated military forces, enormous censorship, 99% state controlled media, non existent/non functional opposition, cult of leadership.

5)Hes opportunist and plays on west's fears and indecisiveness of old, wealthy west, who think that they can talk through Ukraine's crisis and make Putin pull out of Ukraine. Hes good at poker, that does take some calculating skills, but nothing extraordinary, he takes everything that cowardish western leaders cant protect from being stolen.

6)Yeah, well, look into history, there was this event called Cuban missile crisis, ever heard of? And RuSSia is or at least until recently was sending weapons to Syria regime, prior to that russians been keen on selling weapons left and right, supporting every country thats opposing americans both during USSR times as well as modern times.

Whenever there are some big problems starting to appear its either RuSSia or USA/Israel(depending on region) involved, recently also China, go figure which one starts to stir it all up first though.

7)Thanks, Im trying not to, I think Im pretty good at it.

8)So what? If they understand whats been going on in their country for at least past decade, they will understand that RuSSia has turned into nazi, fascist, showinist, commie worshiping regime of a country.

 

I also know that there are users from Ukraine reading these boards, what about them, fuck them or what? Lets not hurt aggressors feelings, as usual and let the one being bullied by aggressor suffer, like its always the victims fault, just like gang rape in India being womens fault, yes?

Lets pet the poor russians, let us not hurt their feelings! What about Ukraine, drop it, forget it, fuck, just dont piss of RuSSia!

I assume that people reading these boards are realists and arent much of Putin lovers and have quite clear picture of what is going on in their country so they shouldnt feel insulted, unless, of course, some of them havent drugged themselves into oblivion and lost last pieces of sanity.

[reger]

1)Yes there is information warfare between NATO and Russia. Both have a plethora of propaganda. 2)Crying about someone "falling" for the Russian propaganda machine 3)while suckling off the teat of Western propaganda just makes you look a little silly.

4)I wouldn't understate the role of the azov battalion in the Ukrainian conflict. From my understanding according to sources such as vice and others, they happen to be one of the only units formidable enough to fight back against the russian backed rebels/russian military. I recommend you watch the whole Russian Roulette series.

5)Also it isn't atypical for the west to back neo-fascist groups in order to achieve political ends; they've done so historically speaking many times. 6)I wouldn't pin the blame solely on Russia considering NATO's eastward expansion via sponsoring and toppling the russian backed Ukrainian regime which used to serve as a sort of buffer state between the blocks. 7)NATO and the US are actively seeking a monopoly on global hegemony and it would be foolish to expect other geo-political players to just roll over and take it.

1)Well, isnt that you, captain obvious ?

2)Im not crying, Im pointing that out. I live in a country which gets smeared in RuSSian media at every opportunity, were being labeled nazi's, oppressors, USA proxies, EU dumpster market and what not, whatever suits RuSSias political agenda of the time. So, naturally I will speak out loud against quoting RT, putins pocket company, ran by his groupies. Present me alternative source of information, and I will comment on it as well.

3)Did I say or quote some specific, western information source? Did I at least say that western information sources are holier than pope? I belive I did not, I merely spoke out against RT! So what does your comment about suckling on western propaganda has to do with my remarks regarding RT? I believe it has nothing to do with it nor with me.

4)Im not underestimating Azov's military capabilities, I believe the main problem was with some of its members bearing nazi attributes, no? Or did we change the subject from evil Ukraine nazi hunta bloodsuckers to Azov's military potential?

5)The same can be said about Putin and his supporters from right-wing political forces across Europe, so, where does it lead us? Directly or through proxies, but both sides tend to support whichever political or military force is convenient for them. Pointing out West as the sole evil as nazi supporters and leaving Puting out of it just shows lack of knowledge or amount of ignorance in this regard.

 

6)Me neither, lets blame ukrainians who decided to say NO to USSR era bribery, corruption, chaos, decline and strived to become better state, free from Putins influence, not being dragged by RuSSia back into swamp. Who ever found this situation to be of benefit was surely wise enough to use it to their advantage. With or without westerners money sooner or later it would have happened anyway. Oh and you said it yourself, previous regime, led by criminal Janukovich, was backed by Moscow not without huge bribery and huge amounts of money poured into pockets of politicians in Ukraine just to keep them sedated and under control of RuSSia, times changed, people changed and, perhaps, EU/NATO saw its opportunity and did the same, what Moscow did, poured in their own money, threw it at the wall to see what sticks.

7)Sure, nobody likes to lose their piece of pie, especially if that somebody is living in the world of delusions and expects every one else to live in that delusion as well(read - what else, besides threats of MAD does RuSSia have to put against the world?)...

[reger]

Very well said. There is no bad or good guys here, but expansion of NATO towards Russia can be seen from Russian point of view as an direct threat and I understand them. After the fall of Soviet Union, there was an agreement about that but we all know who decided not to respect it.

 

Could you please point me to the agreement regarding no NATO expansion in post-soviet countries?

 

As for regarding international treaties and agreements - look at RuSSia, they couldnt care less for any of them, they dont give a damn what the world thinks, thus they dont oblige to them.

 

Another thing about RuSSia - take a look into its history, its always been among the top shit-stirrers in the world, among the top trouble makers and took part in almost every major massacre war there has been in the past centuries, surely, making its own people suffer the biggest losses. Let alone occupying its neighbour countries, denying their legitimacy and not caring about their own treaties that were signed - pretty good reason for former soviet countries to hop into NATO train.

 

Im waiting for source regarding agreement of no NATO expansion towards RuSSia.

[Panoptes]

Even if NATO never agreed not to expand the consequences are obvious and still a form of aggression. Also people call the Azov battalion nazis because they're run by neo-fascists who are fond of Nazi ideology and such. I understand not wanting to be under Russia's imperialistic control, however ultimately your just trading one set of masters for another and there is a good chance it'll be a shit show either way considering your proximity to the would be empire. You understand that Russia was pouring money into Ukraine to sedate the politicians yet you're ok with the West doing the same exact thing. Do you think the Janukovich regime would have been toppled with out billions of western dollars flowing into appropriate pockets throughout Ukraine? You think that western control will subside once the conflict is over and Ukraine will join NATO? I try not to take sides in these sorts of debates because I don't think people should be content with switching owners. What Ukraine needs is real sovereignty.

[reger]

1)Even if NATO never agreed not to expand the consequences are obvious and still a form of aggression. Also people call the Azov battalion nazis because they're run by neo-fascists who are fond of Nazi ideology and such. 2)I understand not wanting to be under Russia's imperialistic control, however ultimately your just trading one set of masters for another and there is a good chance it'll be a shit show either way considering your proximity to the would be empire. 3)You understand that Russia was pouring money into Ukraine to sedate the politicians yet you're ok with the West doing the same exact thing. 4)Do you think the Janukovich regime would have been toppled with out 5)billions of western dollars flowing into appropriate pockets throughout Ukraine? 6)You think that western control will subside once the conflict is over and Ukraine will join NATO? I try not to take sides in these sorts of debates because I don't think people should be content with switching owners. What Ukraine needs is real sovereignty.

1)Whole Russias history has been one huge blob of aggression, pet the aggressor, do what the bully wants...

 

2)For now, as I explained in my previous posts, there is no better working alternative for Baltic states. The idea of forming regional alliance with LT, LV, EE, FI, PL is reappearing once in a while, but we never learn from history and thus are forced to join less invading, less threatening unions. Time will tell if we become true partners in NATO and EU or simply followers or chose best option in the form of creating our own local military alliance with our neighbours.

 

3)Please point out in my previous posts where I said that Im against Russia buying criminals Yanukovich regime and that Im all PRO Westerners buying Ukraine back? I said that if one side was doing it and the other side found a way to do it as well and gain something from it, then good for them, no matter then rasons, it brought some balance back into Ukraine and we will see what kind of direction people of Ukraine choose for their future.

 

4)As I said, sooner or later it would have happened, with Russias/Western worlds money or without. The same applies to Russia, one day it will end its showinist commie dictatorship rule.

 

5)Can you point me to some sources regarding billions of dollars poured into pro-western Ukrainian politicians to support Yanukovich's overthrow? Its not that I have papers on hand regarding Yanuk's affiliation with Putin.

 

6)It will not subside unless people of Ukraine decide that they dont want any of it. There will be always some sort of control from outside world, no country so far has managed to live on its own without any external attachments, trade and so on.

 

Yes, they, just like any other country, need real sovereignty, however its not as easy as it seems, with everything being so interconnected, corruption in every level of big, dominating alliances and countries. Nobody likes "bad" examples, thats why Putin went ape-shit on Ukraine once he realised that its slipping away from its control, too much is at stake for that bloodthirsty regime, too many occupied lands under their control as part of Russian Federation that might want to reconsider their relationships with Russia in their current state if Ukraine succeeds to break away and come out stronger and better country after all the fighting against RuSSian terrorist regime.

 

Regarding AZOV - Im not sure that its ran by nazi and filled with nazi alone. You guys out there in the west should find some other scarecrow other nazis in Ukraine, its getting long in the tooth !

As I said, as long as that battalion doesnt commit nazi-fueled crimes, I dont care if it has nazi, commies or unicorn believers. As far Ive read, it has plenty of non-nazi members there, including Ukrainian russians from Russias occupied territories, if its ok with them, why would I be concerned?

[Panoptes]

Lets avoid the straw-manning. I didn't say they're nazis or even all neo-fascists(and the head defense position in the new interim government is occupied by a far right-wing leader); nor am I saying your all pro west of whatever. I don't think we have any big disagreements here. Though I would never call Russia a "commie" state. Thats a contradiction on so many levels.

[remnant]

Hmm... the discussion here went more political for a trance forum, just like in Ukraine, things gone mad. I still can't believe that so much hate was lurking, political corruption should be accused. As it looks like to me, an inane war. The same and same mistakes in Europe. Poor politics, poor european unification...

[Veracohr]

The most important, Quran is a perception of the world which seems not to accept diversity, the diverse of faiths, tribes, cultures etc, thus it uses the term "Kafir", infidel. The word of the Prophet is undeniable and suits to every man and woman in the world.

I don't know about jihadism and i'm not blaming blindly, but the more literally you accept and follow the Quran (or stricter tenets) the more hostile you might become to other faiths and negative to research.

Sure, but it hardly has a monopoly on such a viewpoint. The Christian Bible is just as intolerant and exclusive, and people who follow it literally are equally deplorable. The problem is dogma and unquestioning faith, not the specific flavor chosen.

[Richpa]

I'll get back to you Reger later tonight, just had to leave this here.

:ph34r:

Latvia's Interior Minister Richard Kozlovskis called upon Riga's citizens to avoid provocations and to stay away from the capital's center during the annual march held on March 16 by Waffen SS Legion veterans and their supporters.

 

Glorification of Nazism on 70th Anniversary of WW2 ‘Abhorrent’

Several hundreds of former Waffen SS legionnaires and their supporters participated in the parade in Riga. Kozlovskis noted that on the eve of the march several individuals were included in the blacklist, prohibited from entering Latvia.

Russia's Foreign Ministry denounced the Waffen SS annual parade in Riga as "disgraceful," saying it insulted millions of victims of the Second World War.

 

Latvia's Waffen SS Legion was formed in 1943 on Adolf Hitler's orders, comprising about 150,000 volunteers. The legionnaires participated in ruthless punitive operations, directed against Jews, Russians and Latvian Communists.

 

According to Latvian media sources, members of anti-fascist movement washed and "disinfected" the square in front of the Freedom Monument after Waffen SS veterans ended their march.

 

 

 

and one interesting quote by Lode Vanoost, former deputy speaker of the Belgian parliament:

Latvian officials had to be specifically banned from these rallies and a minister was sacked last year for attending anyway. Why do you think the EU hasn’t put any pressure on Latvia over this, especially considering there has been European Commission and UN reports expressing concern about the situation?

 

I think there is quite a simple explanation for this. There are no EU countries that are in a position to lecture Latvia - sadly enough - on this issue. I mean if you take Belgium, France, Holland and Italy, these countries have not come to terms with their own past. So they are not in a very good position to lecture Latvia which is not to say that what is happening in the Baltic countries is very bad indeed because… this is not just commemorating by people whether they were misguided or not. That’s not the issue. What is being done is political reinterpretation for present day politics. I mean if you talk about the Baltic countries, whatever happened in the past, whether they were under the regime of Stalin or under the German occupation, none of this justifies what is happening today with the discrimination of the ethnic Russian minorities in these countries. They are using historical events to justify present day politics. And this is where governments like the Latvian one, or like many others are going wrong because they are not distancing themselves from this reinterpretation of history for political purposes.

[reger]

First, we dont discriminate russian people here, that should be pretty obvious for any one with half a brain. Every one in this country has equal rights as long as you hold citizenship of Latvia(if you dont, you cant elect municipality nor parliament and cant work in governmental institutions, thats about it). If you dont, you can get it quite easily. If you dont want to get citizenship, it will not be forced upon you. But its pretty handy for RuSSia to stir up their lies about whats going on in Latvia. They dont give a shit about russians here, those russians are simply tools in their political games, cannon meat of Kremlin as we call disposable masses.

 

Second, we dont support nazi's. And 16th march has nothing to do with nazi movement, yet RuSSian backed media would like you to believe otherwise.

16th march is unofficial memorial day of latvian legionaries who fought during WWII in Germans military, historically it was on this day when both Latvian divisions(15th and 19th) for the first and only time fought together against soviets. And they had a good reason to hate soviets, because soviet occupation with mass deportations, mass killings and lootings was the first thing that WWII gave to Latvia.

Latvians served in frontline and werent the ones exterminating civilians. Some members of SS police battalion of latvian origin did join Latvian legion later on in the war, however, that doesnt make the whole two divisions jew-slayers, now does it? Or perhaps it does, as long as RuSSian TV's say so?

 

I will simply copy-paste this here:

In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal declared the Waffen-SS to be a criminal organization, making an exception of people who had been forcibly conscripted. Throughout the post-war years, the Allies would apply this exception to the soldiers of the Latvian Legion and the Estonian Legion.

The US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:

"The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States."

 

I guess this doesnt count, as long as RuSSian TV says otherwise, no?

 

I could go on and on, but seeing how you post such bullshit regarding Latvian legion and illegal russian settlers here, Ill just leave where it is, there is no point in trying to prove your wrong, you wont change your mind anyway.

 

Perhaps people who read this discussion wont fall for your bullshit and do their own research, even though with RuSSia lies all over Baltic states, it might not be so easy.

 

I have colleague at work whos mother is russian, when he visits his relatives in Russia they at first fear to talk to him regarding russians in Latvia, they are convinced, solely thanks to RuSSian media, that russian speaking people are being discriminated here, being beaten on the streets if russian language is being used and are not allowed proper job opportunities ! Color them shocked, when they realise from one of their own, that its all bullshit!

 

Next time try harder, it does take some effort to address the questions I asked, so its easier to post some RuSSian created lies about legionaries and russian speaking folks.

[reger]

Oh and regarding those members of so called anti-fascist movement :

 

They are all supporters of Putins politics, RuSSias expansion and aggression, they are also paid by RuSSia to do this every year.

They are also having trouble with each other, some sort of money stealing fight gpoing on in between them !

Attention seeking bunch of retards, thats what they are to informed.