Phase Alignment Question

[routingwithin]

 

Lately I have realized something that I would just like to get a second opinion on. Been working on a minimal loop that just kicks ass, the quality is rich, flow is spot-on, everything just vibes correctly.

 

In the sweet spot it sounds great - or when I put my ear real close to the speaker, but the moment I move back - or stand up and walk around, the frequencies kind of change. At first I thought it's the room harmonics, but previewing a reference track and do the same walk about, all the frequencies stays the same. As if while walking around the sound stays in the same place in the air.

 

Is this something to do with phase alignment ?

 

Feedback appreciated

[Djuna]

Acoustics, how a track is mixed, which speakers you use, ... But when I listen to a reference track and walk 4 meters further, it sounds differently though. It would surprise me that it wouldn't happen in your room, since that would be against a natural law.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about it, if you're speakers are set right and you have a certain acoustic treatment you'll do fine. That's why there are certain 'rules' on where and how you should mix, inside a room with nearfields.

[Veracohr]

Can you post it & I can check on my system?

[routingwithin]

Thanks for the offer Veracohr - but that would be too much P.T. - don't have any accounts on the web @ the moment to upload it to.

 

Djuna: I guess you are right. Think it has something to do with the acoustics - the reflections playing with my ears. So in a way I can assume that if the

track sounds good in the sweet spot then it sound great elsewhere. Haven't tested it on other systems yet. I am using Yamaha HS7 monitors so I'll just finish

the track and take it from there.

 

Cheers guys

[Amygdala]

That only happens to me *every* time I press play...

 

You are doing the right thing, though - referencing on other systems. This is wildly important. Also double-check with some decent headphones. A neat trick (on all systems and headphones) is to turn it aaaall the way down, and then up until you only barely hear it. If it still works, and you can hear all the parts, and they balance well - then you're in a good place!

 

Also, try not to waste too much time mixing, before you are ready. Focus on creating the track first, then nitpick in the end. That's something I say, not something I do - although I wish I did

[routingwithin]

 

Cheers man. Yeah I've been producing psy for about 12 years now, and have read so many tips and advice that everything starts to become a cliche.

However I never seem to implement the advice and knowledge that people give me. So it's good to hear it over and over.

 

One of my problems is that I tend to mix from the start. Which after a long time I have found counter-productive.

You get stuck in the loop. And then afterwards you've listened to loop so much that you're fed up with it. Cause without a storyline

the loop does seem to sound like nothing. Then I move on and start over. Around and around we go.

 

Best would be to compose the track and level the stuff afterwards. The track through time carrying your intrest.

 

Yes i've seen that mixing or checking your track on low volumes does work wonders. Think I should try that again.

[astralprojection]

I dont think its the frequencies that appear to change, I think its the possible Stereo-Wide effect that does indeed change where you stand in your room.

Most tracks have many instruments in mono (kick, bass, many leads) and stuff like hihats and fx sounds are usually in stereo, and some are stereo-enhanced, or virtual surround effect.

This is probably what you are experiencing.

[Filipe Santos]

Lately I have realized something that I would just like to get a second opinion on. Been working on a minimal loop that just kicks ass, the quality is rich, flow is spot-on, everything just vibes correctly.

 

In the sweet spot it sounds great - or when I put my ear real close to the speaker, but the moment I move back - or stand up and walk around, the frequencies kind of change. At first I thought it's the room harmonics, but previewing a reference track and do the same walk about, all the frequencies stays the same. As if while walking around the sound stays in the same place in the air.

 

Is this something to do with phase alignment ?

 

Feedback appreciated

yes it is mate , phase changes whenever you move from one place to another and so on , as the same with the sounds in the track/song.

 

What you need is a Phase Scope.

 

http://drco.pairserver.com/drco/TEKTRONIX-764-DIGITAL-AUDIO-PHASE-SCOPE-B13-N3.jpg

[routingwithin]

 

I do have a vectorscope. I use the one that comes with Izotope Ozone. And I do keep the phase between +1 and 0.

The above replies gave me a good idea. It could be a combination of the harmonics of the room and the stereo effect of the instruments.

 

Cause I do tend to want to have stereo on every instrument to keep the stereo image as wide as possible. Obviosuly Kick & bass stays in mono..

 

And all that stereo can give that loose sounding effect to the track. Cause many of the leads have uncontrolled stereo, u know, not synced -

which probly causes the moving sound when I move around.

 

Thanks astralprojection

 

Cheers guys

[astralprojection]

Yes you are absolutely right. Uncontrollable synths can go haywire The stereo and antiphasing can cause unwanted effects when standing in different places in the room.
It can also of course cause interesting effects aswell.
this is a screenshot of the PAZ analyzer from Waves, and the lower window with the two phases is where you want to look.
put this vst (or similar free ones, there are a bunch) on your master channel, and try to do your best to fit all your intstruments inside the phase range.
that way your overall sound SHOULD stay somewhat the same

[routingwithin]

 

Cheers..

 

Yes i've checked out the PAZ before. Still - for me Ozone's one is nicer.

 

I do have a question though. Is it neccessary to have anti-phase present in various parts of the track

cause i've seen it in many reference tracks before.. especially when the beat is not playing.

 

?

[Purple Sunray]

IMHO the sound changes of you move around the room because of reflections, not phasing.

i.e. if you move behind the speakers, your ears can't directly catch the acoustic sound waves as emitted by the speaker, but you still hear the sound.

You hear it because the acoustic sound waves emitted from the speaker, hit the wall in front of the speaker, hit the wall left to you, hit wall right to you ... hit your ear.

If you miss certain frequencies when standing behind the speaker, it has nothing to do with phasing, but how your wall is build. It simply absorbs certain frequencies and since you only hear what's reflected by the wall, you don't hear those frequencies.

 

Phasing is important when it comes to mixing. If you mix 2 channels, whit same signal, but 180° phase offset, they cancel each other.

Think of an addition of 2 similar sine waves. If they are in phase, the peak will be 2 * original peak. If you offset the second signal by 180°, signal 1 has positive peak, while signal 2 has negative peak ==> -1 + 1 = 0.

Second area where phasing is relevant is the speaker setup. Acoustic sound waves travel trough the air with a speed of about 340m per second. So it needs about 3ms to travel 1m.

Period time of a 1kHz signal (period time means the time until a sine signal is back to start when playing 1kHz) is 1ms. So half period time (180°) is 0.5ms.

Now think of a setup where you play this 1kHz sine, with 1 speakers 3m away from you and second one 4,5m.

Signal from speaker A reaches you ear after 1ms. Signal from speaker B arrives 0.5ms later, which is a 180° offset to the first one on 1kHz => signal from B cancels signal from A. If A signal is +1, B signal will be -1 = 0.

But this is nothing you need to worry about during production - modern array / sound-systems have tons of DSP chips to solve exactly that issue.

 

 

> I do have a question though. Is it neccessary to have anti-phase present in various parts of the track
> cause i've seen it in many reference tracks before.. especially when the beat is not playing.

 

Do you have issue with phasing on your mix?

As said above - changing sound because you move around the room hasn't do to anything with phasing on your stereo mix (if you produce mulit-channel audio this is a different story), but with reflections on your room.

 

Edit:

To find out if there are phase problems in your mix, simply play/render it mono.

If certain frequencies disappear when switching from stereo to mono, you have stereo phase problems. If it sounds ok, stereo phase is fine.

[Veracohr]

Reflections cause phase effects. If a sound reaches you by two different paths that are not equal in length they will have different phase when they reach your ear.

[Purple Sunray]

Reflections cause phase effects. If a sound reaches you by two different paths that are not equal in length they will have different phase when they reach your ear.

 

That's true, but you cannot solve that during production - or how do you want to know about the speaker setup on the stage, while doing the mix on the studio?

[routingwithin]

 

 

Many interesting points raised. Thanks Awaken

 

I do know about the phase cancellation yes - that is not the case, however in some instances it can be - especially when playing many leads together

each created individually, but then I would rather say masking would become a problem.

 

I believe it is all about the reflections like you said. Still working on padding the walls but budget a bit tight - after my monitors.

I've got wooden floors and walls so yeah not the best studio environment. lol

 

Yes I never quite knew how important distance / placement was until I tried recording a guitar through an amp to a mic to a fast track. The distance

from the mic and the amp, even though it was little, created some hectic latency - and was forced to use DI, cause I did not have the correct equipment.

That's when I experienced the speed of sound for the first time.

 

Have to say to get a perfect 30 degree angle between you and the speakers can be a bit tricky. Luckely I got some stands to keep them in place -

but I doubt that they are 100% 30 degrees and forming a perfect triangle.

 

Update on the rest:

After testing my monitors for a few weeks, getting to know the sound etc. I composed 13 quick tracks (each processed differently, experimenting)

mostly concentrating on the K&B.

So last night burned it to a disc and played it on a few different systems. The reason is I want to start out knowing how to EQ and process my

music before testing it.

 

Have to say it helped a lot, after making some notes I found which tracks had a nice kick - where I eq'd my leads just right etc.

Also gave some inspiration to move on knowing the sound is nice.

 

My bass-line is mostly a problem since I synthesize it. (samples suck) -

It always have too much boom. However I don't want to thin it out too much (it needs that beef), so a new -3db @ 60hz would be a start. Trial and testing.

 

Those monitors do live up to their reputation - best choice I made.

 

Thank you for the replies guys

Keep well

[Purple Sunray]

Nice to see my answer was helpful to you

Another idea that might be useful to you: get some good headphones.

IMHO listening on headphones is essential for a mix unless you have a fully blown high end studio.

The usual hobbyist-bedroom-studio is far from being perfect in terms of acoustic properties.

By using headphones you remove the issues of interfering reflections, wrong speaker setup, ect.

And I'm NOT saying that you shall get rid of the monitors.. hell NO! listen to both during mix. ;D

I have KRK RP6 monitors + Sennheiser HD-380 headphone and the difference between when listening to a mix is quite drastic.

i.e. I can't hear distorted kick-drums because of over-compression on KRK at all, unless it becomes very obvious, while on the headphone I can hear it immediately. This is vice versa while tuning the bass saturation. There I cannot use the headphones - if I change low-band crossover (in between 150-300Hz), I only hear a minimal difference on the headphones, while the change is quite significant on the KRK.

[routingwithin]

Sorry man - I see ur actually Purple Sunray, my bad. - otherwise I would be Enlightened Ape, lol

 

Yeah I know what ur saying - I own the Shure SRH440's which does have great quality.

The reason it's so difficult to get strait answers in music production is because experienced producers have realized that you can only really get there

with the amount of experience you have with the gear and tools. I see so many Q's like how to EQ a kickdrum... Which kick drum, cause each has unique

timbres, present frequencies etc. It's all about how it was synthesized. How much the sound was filtered, if any resonant peaks was added, or harmonic

distortion. But I digress

 

The problem with the headphones for me is when I synthesize kick and basslines. It's difficult to tweak the timbres just right without using my monitors.

I checked out the 112db Redline monitor software : https://www.112db.com/redline/monitor/: to use with Headphones. They say it's

suppose to turn your headphones into a monitor listening environment - but after testing it I could not really find a huge difference.

Sure the sound does get moved around, but exactly like listening with monitors, nah man.

 

Yes mixing while using both is essential. Many non release times on kick and basslines can create silent clicks which you don't

normally notice until you listen through headphones. Then again I find that mixing db levels is much better with monitors. The headphones

kind of lie to me sometimes - but that can also be cause of inaccurate frequency balance between the elements.

 

cheers

[Purple Sunray]

Sorry man - I see ur actually Purple Sunray, my bad. - otherwise I would be Enlightened Ape, lol

 

i might swipe "Enlightened Ape" as a trackname though

 

> The reason it's so difficult to get strait answers in music production is because experienced producers have realized that you can only really get there

with the amount of experience you have with the gear and tools.

 

So true.. it also took some time for me to realize that you cannot learn that stuff from asking questions... Answers help a lot to get you into the right direction, but at the end it's always left to your ears... and they don't learn from your eyes reading letters.. but from pratice =)

[Dolmot]

Now think of a setup where you play this 1kHz sine, with 1 speakers 3m away from you and second one 4,5m.

Signal from speaker A reaches you ear after 1ms. Signal from speaker B arrives 0.5ms later, which is a 180° offset to the first one on 1kHz => signal from B cancels signal from A. If A signal is +1, B signal will be -1 = 0.

But this is nothing you need to worry about during production - modern array / sound-systems have tons of DSP chips to solve exactly that issue.

 

The wavelength of 1 kHz would actually be 34 cm. If either of the paths changes by 17 cm (which, coincidentally, is about the head width), you already get inverse phase. No DSP, apart from using headphones, can prevent listeners from moving at least 17 cm around. Fortunately, at high frequencies the head itself produces a decent acoustic mask, thus you'll hear both signals separately to a sufficient extent if the sources are located roughly L/R.

 

However, the wavelength of e.g. 50 Hz is 6.8 m, and head masking will be minimal so the waves do mix heavily. That kind of frequencies should be kept in a roughly matching phase so that at least the "sweet spot" listeners (including most people at home) will get the correct response.

 

i might swipe "Enlightened Ape" as a trackname though

 

It's already a Shakta album and a track...

[routingwithin]

Exactly PS.. asking questions is a necessity to progress, otherwise doing it on ur own, you will start out where the guys started out when synthesis was

invented.

With today's technology it does give us some shortcuts to get up to speed. Even if you just sit an entire weekend watching synthesis vids on you tube will

definitely help a great deal. Learning from others is key. Also nowadays you even get video courses on production and music theory etc. which would have been

an amazing gift to give someone back in the day.

 

However i believe the web has made many of the new producers lazy - cause the information is so easily

available that no-one really works at it to figure it out. When ur at a dead end, you jump to the forums and ask what is wrong with my bassline..

But with the process of working at it and figuring it out yourself, would have given you so much more "in between the lines" info which is part of the

bigger picture to eventually reach your goal in the end.

 

For me it took a while to get acquainted to my new monitors. When I got them I struggled to tweak my saw tooth bass to perfection.

Where with my old monitors I got to a nice sound within minutes. Here its again about the amount of experience you have with your gear.

I then realized that my previous good sounding bassline weren't at all sounding good. It was proper shite.. but after a while getting

used to the sound of my new babies it started to make sense what I did wrong previously, especially with EQ.

 

When composing a track you can use anything that can generate sound waves to your ears: Headphones, crappy desktop speakers, anything..

but unfortunately through many years of struggle - it ends with the same point. That to mix and master to perfection .. a well set up studio

environment is required.

[astralprojection]

Cheers..

 

Yes i've checked out the PAZ before. Still - for me Ozone's one is nicer.

 

I do have a question though. Is it neccessary to have anti-phase present in various parts of the track

cause i've seen it in many reference tracks before.. especially when the beat is not playing.

 

?

Its not necessary, its unavoidable. But you can at least manage a few leads that you dont want any anti-phase on. Or go too wide in the stereo image. But there will most likely always be anti-phasing going on.

[routingwithin]

Its not necessary, its unavoidable. But you can at least manage a few leads that you dont want any anti-phase on. Or go too wide in the stereo image. But there will most likely always be anti-phasing going on.

 

Well sure , however it can be avoidable. by checking each sound with ur vectorscope and adjusting the stereo image. Or using a stereo widening tool - take it down to mono and open it up until its close to zero, but yes, eventhough you control it like this it sometimes still shoot passed zero for a second.

 

My point on this Q was that many reference tracks looks super wide. but with my tracks - the K&B pulls the whole image to mono - or too close to mono. Can be that the volume levels is too high, but needs to be like that to be the main elements in the track.

[astralprojection]

nope. cant be unavoidable.

i gurantee it (unless you wanna use MONO for most of your instruments like i said in my first post)

[Taika-Kim]

There is no way ever that you can avoid physical phase cancellation as soon as the sound waves come out of the speakers, no matter how accurately your mix is set, because it´s caused by

vibrations in the air, moving in a three dimensional space.

 

The only way really would be to mix in an anechoic chamber, that sucks in all of the sound.