Albums with extreme Stereo-Experience

[Novoice]

Hello,

 

which albums are for You the best ones with an extreme Stereo-Experience, especially with headphones?

[Ormion]

Paralocks-Underground Arrangement

I don't know how he does it, but some effects are almost surround.

[Novoice]

Thank You, I check it out.

 

For me very impressive is: Cosmos Vibration - Unknown Universe and Olien - Sounded Paratronic.

[Rotwang]

Probably not what you're looking for, but this track has a single percussion sound with weirdly great stereo imaging, every time I hear it my brain refuses to believe it's coming from the music rather than the outside world:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoAuujgSOmA

[Novoice]

Thanks. Hmm, yes, strereo is in it, but not that extreme... I mean, not in that extreme permanent way I search compared to Cosmos Vibration or Olien.

 

Cryptic Crunch from Hux Flux is also very strong.

[astralprojection]

Im sure many of you know it, but to have a sound sound extremely stereowide, like its in your room or something like that, is to simply remove the phase of one of the channels.*
this causes the sound to be in stereo only, i.e if you put the track on mono, you cannot hear the sound.

* i dont remember exactly what happens and I dont have a DAW to check atm, but i very well familiar with this effect.
but like i said, the sound doesnt exist in mono, so if you listen to it on your smartphone without stereo (most of them) or your little carry-speaker that are usually mono, the sound wont exist.

an example of this is my remix of Eminence Front. The whole vocal track, I used this technique. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si6Y1G-ydpo) (start at 01:40) Listen to it in normal stereo speakers, and the vocals is heard, even the ping pong delay.

but put the song in mono, you wont hear any of the vocals. (put a normal track into mono, and it mixes the two channels into one)

Its a very old and raw technique but its not optimal. Also you immediately recognize it.

I just reinstalled my OS from Win10 back to Win7 cause i wanted to reformat... So when I have my software up and running Ill return to this thread with examples, and a more proper explanation of what happens, because I dont store everything like that in my memory. I guess you could google something like phase shift, phase remove, or something like that, I dunno.

But ill come back later with clear examples, that wont be hearable on any mono system. Which is curious..

[Ormion]

Probably not what you're looking for, but this track has a single percussion sound with weirdly great stereo imaging, every time I hear it my brain refuses to believe it's coming from the music rather than the outside world

I have one track like that. It's Hybernation-Planet Oth. I have no youtube video, but there's rattle sound that seems that it's coming from behind. I remember when I first listened to it I thought that someone came into the room.

[Rotwang]

Im sure many of you know it, but to have a sound sound extremely stereowide, like its in your room or something like that, is to simply remove the phase of one of the channels.*

this causes the sound to be in stereo only, i.e if you put the track on mono, you cannot hear the sound.

Do you mean reverse the polarity of one of the channels? I would imagine that sounds weird and confusing, and testing it bears that out IMO.

 

What I've found is that you can get quite good stereo imaging if, rather than just changing the relative volume of the channels, you correct for the different times it takes a sound to reach your ears as well. Our brains can detect even quite a small difference in the Doppler shift heard by each ear, and it takes that into account when trying to place sounds.

 

For comparison, here's a weird noise with three different panning algorithms: the first is a naive algorithm that multiplies each channel by amplitudes whose squares sum to 1. The second is based on multiplying each channel by the inverse of the distance from the corresponding ear, with no Doppler shift, and the third is the same thing but with Doppler shift. I think the third one sounds reasonably convincing.

 

e: Note that none of these algorithms is able to distinguish a sound that's in front of the listener from one that's behind. That would presumably involve some complicated filtering and I wouldn't know where to start.

[astralprojection]

rotwang

just to give quick example

 

a song we both like, infected- song pong, it uses one channel slightly delayed after the other. causing stereo wideness.

 

but like I said I'll come back when I can produce some examples of the phase manipulation thing. and also when one channel is slightly delayed.

the latter being the most, no pun intended, widely used .

[Rotwang]

You mean the Haas effect? That works, yes, though it won't cause the sound to disappear from mono in general.

[Dolmot]

What I've found is that you can get quite good stereo imaging if, rather than just changing the relative volume of the channels, you correct for the different times it takes a sound to reach your ears as well. Our brains can detect even quite a small difference in the Doppler shift heard by each ear, and it takes that into account when trying to place sounds.

 

Doppler shift refers to the perceived change in frequency due to moving sources, which is a different effect altogether and audible even in mono recordings. For the actual delay effect relevant for stereo modelling, you should search for interaural time difference (ITD).

 

At low frequencies, the head's acoustic shadow isn't strong enough to attenuate the signal arriving to the contralateral ear, thus the interaural level difference (ILD) isn't very reliable. Conversely, the time difference produces an unambiguous phase difference, which can be easily perceived and dominates the observation. From approximately 1500 Hz upward, the wavelength is less than 20 cm (~head width), thus the phase difference becomes ambiguous. However, the acoustic shadow produces strong ILD so the latter becomes more important for stereo perception. You can still hear the time difference between sharp impulses at high frequencies, but not really for tones.

 

For complete 3D localisation cues, look for HRIR and HRTF (head-related impulse response and transfer function). They've been documented pretty well. However, a part of the response is individual, thus generic rendering from 3D to stereo channels cannot be completely accurate.

 

And the deal with channel inversion is that each frequency will have a half-wavelength shift, which corresponds to a different time delay for every single frequency. Therefore the brain cannot locate it at all because none of the overtones/harmonics will correlate with each other. Levels will be equal so no hints for localisation from that either. It's neat, but largely avoided in all audio production as mono or narrow stereo playback will fail due to cancellation. Realistic ITD (from, say, actual stereo recordings with or without a mannequin head) is acceptable but still risky. Off-phase channels can screw up vinyl cutting etc. so it's generally safer to use ILD coding only.

[Rotwang]

Doppler shift refers to the perceived change in frequency due to moving sources,bwhich is a different effect altogether and audible even in mono recordings.

Yes, and when a source is moving the variable delay will cause a different Doppler shift to be heard by each ear. That's what I'm talking about.

[Rotwang]

At low frequencies, the head's acoustic shadow isn't strong enough to attenuate the signal arriving to the contralateral ear, thus the interaural level difference (ILD) isn't very reliable. Conversely, the time difference produces an unambiguous phase difference, which can be easily perceived and dominates the observation. From approximately 1500 Hz upward, the wavelength is less than 20 cm (~head width), thus the phase difference becomes ambiguous. However, the acoustic shadow produces strong ILD so the latter becomes more important for stereo perception. You can still hear the time difference between sharp impulses at high frequencies, but not really for tones.

 

For complete 3D localisation cues, look for HRIR and HRTF (head-related impulse response and transfer function). They've been documented pretty well. However, a part of the response is individual, thus generic rendering from 3D to stereo channels cannot be completely accurate.ry single frequency. Therefore the brain cannot locate it at all because none of the overtones/harmonics will correlate with each other. Levels will be equal so no hints for localisation from that either. It's neat, but largely avoided in all audio production as mono or narrow stereo playback will fail due to cancellation. Realistic ITD (from, say, actual stereo recordings with or without a mannequin head) is acceptable but still risky. Off-phase channels can screw up vinyl cutting etc. so it's generally safer to use ILD coding only.

Nice info, thanks.

[astralprojection]

You mean the Haas effect? That works, yes, though it won't cause the sound to disappear from mono in general.

Yeah, thats that Song Pong sound. But the other thing I mean is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWB5PSoV2I0&t=04m27s

 

i marked the minute and second when the sound happens, what im talking about.

with the phase cancellation or whatever, like i said i havent looked into it yet exactly, like the specifics - but this sound, is extremely stereo wide imho, sounds like it is in your head.

and these sounds wont exist if you play on a mono speaker.

 

And to use this effect there is a built in vst in both cubase and nuendo for it, also Waves have a plugin called InPhase which can do it, and much much more.

 

 

Also this technique is what some use to extract song from a track, creating a leftover instrumental. But that will still cause remnants and artifacts.

[Penzoline]

I remember this synsun track has a lead going in circles thru the track.

[Novoice]

I found one album: Archaic - Mountain Powers. Heavy stereo-effects. Perfectly crafted. Dense and intense... same as the production quality and everything else.