Animals as food, Animals as objects of abuse

[Starkraver]

Its a very disturbing topic.

 

How do you differentiate few animals that are "fit" to be eaten and how few are to be loved and nurtured and petted.

 

There have been few sickening developments over here and whats worse is that, there are people supporting the abuse however heinous immoral heart wrenching it is with a stupid rationale that of "many" animals are killed every day (so that one can enjoy a tasty meal) why make a big fuss about few dogs being killed by a psycho wtf wtf!

 

Ok, while all animals deserve to live just as we do, some have to killed so that humanity can survive and advance (mosquito and other disease causing animals) I can understand that. I can also understand hunting a few animals for survival purposes or rearing a few to meet the hunger of humans. When it comes down to brutal cruelty, that is unacceptable! necessity is different than cruelty. But then again for us to have a chicken wing, the chicken needs to killed. And taking a life is itself an act of cruelty.Is it not?

 

Just help me out here with your thoughts and views.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, on the same lines. Even after having choices, eating an animal as a delicacy and not as a necessity, is it also an act of cruelty.? or pleasure of exciting the taste buds is also a necessity!?
(Dont get me wrong, I respect your food habits. No offence meant to anyone)

[MrAnarchy]

Well chickens do exist thanks to us. It is one of the earliest forms of genetic modification in some sense. There are no wild chicken or cows. And I simply love meat as a luxury but also as a great source of nutrients. I would never hurt or hunt an animal as sport but only for food and that is fine by me. Its the food chain. Its cruel but that is nature. Animals also kill other animals.

If I had to choose from eating plants or eating meat, I would choose meat without thinking. Also why is it cruel to butcher a chicken but its ok to kill plants for the same purpose. The fact that plants dont suffer (feel pain) is not an excuse! A plant is just as much alive as animals are, in existential sense, and you kill them as much as you kill an animal.

[Celaripo]

if everytime when buying chicken pork or beef the customer was actually seeing the staff killing the animal in front of him then the meat business would decrease considerably

we dont need to eat meat anymore to live

 

billy simmonds http://www.greatveganathletes.com/billy-simmonds-vegan-bodybuilder

[MrAnarchy]

we dont need to eat meat anymore to live

We are omnivores. We have the right to choose our diet. Its fine to eat meat and its fine to eat plants. The point of all this is dont kill stuff out of fun.

[Celaripo]

[Padmapani]

one doesn't have to be a vegetarian to be against industrial meat production in the way described in the video. the true evil behind this is not meat-eating but capitalism. if it weren't more profitable, such facilities wouldn't exist.

i'm sure glad to live in a country where small farms and slaughterhouses are the norm (i've seen how the process works irl) and meat factories like in the video are the rare exceptions (if they exist at all).

[Starkraver]

Thanks guys!

I'm still stuck at that argument. I don't know how to make people understand that cruelty is different.

I can't seem to convince myself too.

I can categorise few animals as food and be completely oblivious to their pain and death.
And not tolerate even a small stone being thrown at others.

But that's not fair! How can I differentiate! Even the legendary line of "it's ok to eat fish cause they don't have feelings" is not right. If you have an aquarium at home you would know. How ferociously a mum defends her newborns against other fishes. If that's not a feeling then what is.

But we have to kill to survive. but doesn't mean that I can go chop a tree in half just for the heck of it. Is it the same as killing puppies?

When I think of this whole thing in the sense of life of every being. I should NOT own any wooden furniture, I shouldn't eat anything other than fruits and grains(?) in short I should stop any/ever activity that puts another life at risk.

I would really appreciate if you guys can share more of your views or point me to some place. I need to calm myself down.

[Starkraver]

And that justifying plant killing just because they are not sentiment beings is hard for me accept. Killing is f'in killing. No matter what.

[Starkraver]

Please ignore the title. Some dickhead tried to put religion into a good conversation with this mystic. It's just a half show. He always has some nice views.

 

[MrAnarchy]

Thanks guys!

 

I'm still stuck at that argument. I don't know how to make people understand that cruelty is different.

 

I can't seem to convince myself too.

 

I can categorise few animals as food and be completely oblivious to their pain and death.

And not tolerate even a small stone being thrown at others.

 

But that's not fair! How can I differentiate! Even the legendary line of "it's ok to eat fish cause they don't have feelings" is not right. If you have an aquarium at home you would know. How ferociously a mum defends her newborns against other fishes. If that's not a feeling then what is.

 

But we have to kill to survive. but doesn't mean that I can go chop a tree in half just for the heck of it. Is it the same as killing puppies?

 

When I think of this whole thing in the sense of life of every being. I should NOT own any wooden furniture, I shouldn't eat anything other than fruits and grains(?) in short I should stop any/ever activity that puts another life at risk.

 

I would really appreciate if you guys can share more of your views or point me to some place. I need to calm myself down.

I understand what you're saying and I too dont want to make a being suffer. But we have to, as you said it, "Kill to survive". Imagine yourself in woods, surviving. Would you kill an animal or a plant and eat it because you value your own life above all else (like I do), or are you going to starve for melancholic reasons. I completely understand both but, personally, I think that we are entitled to that amount of selfishness, where you put your own existance above all else (like animals do and we are animals).

As for possesions, wooden chairs, closets, leather jackets and boots and so on... Well, my ideal idea of living is in nature in anarchy. You take as much as you need from the nature and thats it. No need for greed, unnecessary violance etc... But even though I have this idea of anarchy and complete freedom, I simply am not ready to fulfill it. I am too scared and lazy and I would have to give up so much. And that is the question "Would you give up luxury of modern life for complete freedom?".

 

I understand your anger because I too am angry! All we have to do is figure out if we are going to change ourselves to fit our feelings, or are we going to stand idle like the rest of this lazy and ignorant civilization?

Like Nietzsche said "What do you know of life you comfortable people?"

 

As for the violence in meat industries, like Padmapani said, we cant do much except stop indulging in their products...

[Imba]

Sensitive theme...

 

First of all - man used meat since beggining.

 

Plants are living beings just as animals, they look different, they cant scream or try to run when you cut them but they can feel. It doesnt make you anything more human or better person if you just eat plants. You killed living being - chicken or salad or corn...

 

 

But yeah big industries are even more cruel, they just cut them and let them bleed out or dont even wait death. But for example local farmers here use captive bolt before so animals wont feel agony or be aware of upcoming death... lets say a more human way. Technologicaly humans advanced so much and we have all sort of technology needed but we dont use it.

 

That's problem here, not eating a meat.

 

What can we do is to try avoid big markets connected with big industries and go buy it from smaller shops and markets or directly from the people in village until some law which can try stop industries doing such things... they kill so much animals for meat and probably third of it ends in trash instead feeding poors and homeless people. There should be extra law for such thing!

[Penzoline]

Cowspiracy, everyone should watch it.

[Starkraver]

Looks interesting thanks Penzoline.

[Celaripo]

the true evil behind this is not meat-eating but capitalism. if it weren't more profitable, such facilities wouldn't exist.

i'm sure glad to live in a country where small farms and slaughterhouses are the norm (i've seen how the process works irl) and meat factories like in the video are the rare exceptions (if they exist at all).

that is where your mistake is

plenty of this kind of factories exist in the richest countries in europe

just the last 6 months three of them have been closed thanks to former staff who filmed what was really happening inside these factories

they were all located in france - yes france not china

i cant trust this industry in any country

where there is money to make there is always abuse

 

yes plants are alive but they have no nerves

since we have to eat live beings to survive i chose to eat fruits vegetables tofu nuts and rice rather than animals

[Starkraver]

So, today I went out and bought 250gms of chicken liver(Chicken & mutton are popular over here,not beef and pork you rarely get these) from the local butcher shop. My 14 year old dog is sick and wont eat anything. And the doctor had advised to give her lots of proteins, vitamins etc. She wont drink the syrup so had to get the livers.

 

 

Rationality is a beautiful thing.

 

 

(Off to googling how to cook the liver. )

[Padmapani]

that is where your mistake is

plenty of this kind of factories exist in the richest countries in europe

just the last 6 months three of them have been closed thanks to former staff who filmed what was really happening inside these factories

they were all located in france - yes france not china

i cant trust this industry in any country

where there is money to make there is always abuse

 

yes plants are alive but they have no nerves

since we have to eat live beings to survive i chose to eat fruits vegetables tofu nuts and rice rather than animals

 

i know they exist in europe. the netherlands has lots of those, so does germany and apparently france. i'd never buy meat from the netherlands or germany for exactly that reason.

austria is a bit different, probably partly because of the mountainous landscape. there are lots and lots of small farms and not much else. if you have 15 cows you're already considered to have a large cattle farm. (the farmers have a strong lobby so there might even be regulations preventing industrial meat factories but i don't know...)

soetimes you even have the names of the individual farmhouses on the package you buy in the supermarket.

 

of course, just because i've never heard of a huge industrial complex in my country, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. still, i have possibilities to make sure i don't get meat from such factories.

 

 

plants have no nerves but they have ways of transmitting signals from one part of the plant to the other, and demonstrably do so when they're injured. it all depends on if you believe that everything that lives has some sort of consciousness (i do not).

then again when animals are properly anaesthesised (which sadly doesn't happen always in the facilities you mention or when traditional slaughtering methods are used) they also don't feel pain or suffer, so i don't see a problem there either.

[acid-brain]

i cant trust this industry in any country

where there is money to make there is always abuse

Amen to that. Every time someone goes to the supermarket to buy meat, they are paying to have an animal killed for them - they are creating demand for more animals to be farmed. And almost all animals these days come from factory farms where animals suffer extremely poor conditions. If you want to find out information about where the animals come from (and I think it is everybody's duty to know), then check out the book Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer. Or watch Cowspiracy as Penzoline suggested above.

 

We should know where our food comes from and how our food is treated, otherwise we are not making a conscious and informed choice. For me goa and psytrance is about exploring other states of consciousness and empathy with other beings on this Earth. Eating other beings and paying for them to suffer in tiny cages is totally incompatible with that.

 

Imagine yourself in woods, surviving. Would you kill an animal or a plant and eat it because you value your own life above all else (like I do), or are you going to starve for melancholic reasons.

But that is not a realistic argument. We all live in abundant consumer cultures where there are many options for eating a healthy diet. None of us live in the woods or alone on an island. We have computers and supermarkets full of 1000s of foods. These days we can easily survive without victimising and exploiting animals. People only continue to eat meat because of tradition and taste. But in years to come people will realize that what we are doing today with animals is terrible. Future generations will be amazed at the scale and horror of the meat industry of today, and will be shocked that so many ordinary people supported it.

 

In the words of Moby:

“If you look at the course of western history you’ll see that we’re slowly granting basic rights to everyone. A long time ago only kings had rights. Then rights were extended to property-owning white men. Then all men. Then women. Then children. Then the mentally retarded. Now we’re agonizing over the extension of basic rights to homosexuals and animals. We need to finally accept that all sentient creatures are deserving of basic rights… I call upon you to be compassionate and treat others as you want to be treated. If you don’t want to be beaten, imprisoned, mutilated, killed or tortured then you shouldn’t condone such behavior towards anyone, be they human or not.”

[Starkraver]

Good contrasting views all around. I sincerely hope the next generation do realise as you said Acid brain. In fact, if you watch the above video. You'll come to know our previous gen realised it well enough.

 

Right now, people are being forced (virtually) to eat.

It's the culture, it's the tradition, it's the Trend. Countless Kfc ads etc it's kinda like imbibed during the early years without proper knowledge or will power I guess.

 

How you gonna convince people who follow certain religion and consider it a direct threat to their religious identity if something of the sort is even discussed.

[MrAnarchy]

But that is not a realistic argument. We all live in abundant consumer cultures where there are many options for eating a healthy diet. None of us live in the woods or alone on an island. We have computers and supermarkets full of 1000s of foods. These days we can easily survive without victimising and exploiting animals. People only continue to eat meat because of tradition and taste. But in years to come people will realize that what we are doing today with animals is terrible. Future generations will be amazed at the scale and horror of the meat industry of today, and will be shocked that so many ordinary people supported it.

First, eating meat is healthy. There is a physiological reason we like meat in the first place (most of us atleast). The same reason we like when something tastes sweet. Its our "animal" brain telling us "Hey, you should eat more of that. It will keep you alive!".

So you are saying that eating meat is morally bad or an evil thing to do even though the animals themselves do the same? No, no its not! I dont know if meat industries torture animals like you seem to think they do, but if they do- yeah I agree. Its a terrible thing. But the act alone of killing an animal for food is not. I would do it myself if there was a need to.

 

 

@Celaripo: And that argument that its better to kill a plant than an animal because plants dont feel pain is faulty IMO. Plants don't have pain receptors. Plants have pressure receptors that allow them to know when they're being touched or moved—mechanoreceptors. It's a specific nerve cell. But still I dont think that is reason enough to judge that its fine to kill a plant but its not fine to kill an animal. There is a disease which makes a person unable to feel physical pain. Would you say that it's better to kill that person instead of a "normal" person? If the answer is no, then why is that logic good for plants and animals? Because they are a lesser being? The fact that , we, humans are self conscious and have a more differentiated nervous system doesnt make us a higher being or in this case, it doesnt make plants a lower being.

 

My philosophy is that its ok to kill an animal, and its ok to kill a plant if its for the purpose of feeding yourself. If you are going to add to the story that killing a being is morally bad, then see it through and starve. But dont live up to it just halfway through thinking "Hey, plants dont feel, its ok to kill them." Its hypocritical...

[Starkraver]

Its ecologically a bad thing.

 

You don't have to kill a plant to survive. They produce enough things for the sake of "to be eaten"

[MrAnarchy]

Its ecologically a bad thing.

 

You don't have to kill a plant to survive. They produce enough things for the sake of "to be eaten"

Most plants dont work that way. Mostly we eat their leaves and roots, killing them in the process. You really think that we can survive by just eating their fruit? You would start to starve and your muscles would atrophy VERY quickly since it would be a very unbalanced diet...

[acid-brain]

First, eating meat is healthy. There is a physiological reason we like meat in the first place (most of us atleast). The same reason we like when something tastes sweet. Its our "animal" brain telling us "Hey, you should eat more of that. It will keep you alive!".

So you are saying that eating meat is morally bad or an evil thing to do even though the animals themselves do the same? No, no its not! I dont know if meat industries torture animals like you seem to think they do, but if they do- yeah I agree. Its a terrible thing. But the act alone of killing an animal for food is not. I would do it myself if there was a need to.

 

 

@Celaripo: And that argument that its better to kill a plant than an animal because plants dont feel pain is faulty IMO. Plants don't have pain receptors. Plants have pressure receptors that allow them to know when they're being touched or moved—mechanoreceptors. It's a specific nerve cell. But still I dont think that is reason enough to judge that its fine to kill a plant but its not fine to kill an animal. There is a disease which makes a person unable to feel physical pain. Would you say that it's better to kill that person instead of a "normal" person? If the answer is no, then why is that logic good for plants? Because they are a lesser being? The fact that , we, humans are self conscious and have a more differentiated nervous system doesnt make us a higher being or in this case, it doesnt make plants a lower being.

 

My philosophy is that its ok to kill an animal, and its ok to kill a plant if its for the purpose of feeding yourself. If you are going to add to the story that killing a being is morally bad, then see it through and starve. But dont live up to it just halfway through thinking "Hey, plants dont feel, its ok to kill them." Its hypocritical...

Eating meat is healthy but so is eating plants, fruits and other sources of protein. In fact, numerous studies have shown that vegetarians live longer than meat eaters. So clearly eating meat is not required for a healthy lifestyle.

 

Nietzsche would have laughed at the argument that if our animal brains tell us to eat animals, there must be something right about doing it. He would also mock the idea that because animals eat each other, then we should eat them too. Since when have we based our morality on animals? Last time I checked the animal kingdom is a dark place with rapes, suffering, mutilation and murder happening every minute. What makes us human is our ability to transcend the impulse of the herd and build greater things. We are intelligent reasoning beings, not beasts.

 

The fact that , we, humans are self conscious and have a more differentiated nervous system doesnt make us a higher being or in this case, it doesnt make plants a lower being.

Yes, it does. Let's take your argument about killing a person who can't feel pain: first, I agree that the ability to suffer is obviously not the only criterion otherwise it would be permissible to kill a person who can't feel pain. But think about this. We have brains that are capable of extremely complex simulations of experience, and we often think and worry about our future. If we believed that humans who do not experience pain were morally worthless, that would cause a significant number of people harm and worry; people would be terrified of becoming analgesic (insensitive to pain) because that would then make them targets of murder and exploitation. Clearly this is a ridiculous situation, and that is why we believe in the innate value of consciousness and experience. Even if somebody does not suffer, they are still a person worthy of rights because they are a thinking and sentient creature.

 

Plants, on the other hand, have no brains or consciousness. They cannot worry about the future or suffer. Eating a plant does not make other plants terrified of being eaten. They may be notionally 'alive' like animals and humans, but their kind of life has virtually nothing to do with what we understand our human life to be. It is stupid to pretend that plants have 'life' like we do - plants do not experience 'life' in any way. Therefore comparing killing a human/animal to killing a plant is beyond ridiculous.

 

Animals, on the other hand, are much closer to humans than to plants. They become anxious, protect their young, and have complex brains that as are capable as young children's. For instance pigs have been taught to play video games. It is a tragedy that we keep these intelligent creatures in narrow filthy cages, castrate them, and take away their young, before slaughtering them. It is tragic that this a common practice that most people in society pay to make happen.

 

I haven't even started on the environmental impact of factory farming. Cowspiracy talks about that.

[Starkraver]

You would start to starve and your muscles would atrophy VERY quickly since it would be a very unbalanced diet...

 

joking I guess. If you think meat is the sole source of protein.

 

Check - Ragi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusine_coracana)

 

Source wiki:

"In southern parts of India, pediatricians recommend finger-millet-based food for infants of six months and above because of its high nutritional content, especially iron and calcium. Home-made ragi malt is a popular infant food."

And its just seeds of one plant. And it applies to adults too.

[acid-brain]

Good contrasting views all around. I sincerely hope the next generation do realise as you said Acid brain. In fact, if you watch the above video. You'll come to know our previous gen realised it well enough.

 

Right now, people are being forced (virtually) to eat.

It's the culture, it's the tradition, it's the Trend. Countless Kfc ads etc it's kinda like imbibed during the early years without proper knowledge or will power I guess.

 

How you gonna convince people who follow certain religion and consider it a direct threat to their religious identity if something of the sort is even discussed.

I am hopeful that things will change relatively soon. Many scientists are working on In vitro meat, and the cost is decreasing all the time. We will eventually reach the point where in vitro meat is tastier and cheaper than real meat, and as soon as it is a real alternative and people start eating in it large numbers, they will realise how bad the factory farming industry has become. And how terrible it is to cause totally unnecessary suffering to billions of animals (56 billion animals are killed every year by humans).

 

We look back at the days of black slavery in the USA and are amazed at how the whole of society could be involved in so obviously victimising fellow beings. I'm pretty confident that future generations will are amazed at how most people in our times could be involved in so obviously victimising fellow beings.*

 

*If your immediate response to that is, well slaves were humans, then consider that most American southerners didn't consider the black slaves to be human and thus worthy of human rights. And then think about the way that you consider and treat animals (that is, the way that you pay for them to be treated).

[MrAnarchy]

Eating meat is healthy but so is eating plants, fruits and other sources of protein. In fact, numerous studies have shown that vegetarians live longer than meat eaters. So clearly eating meat is not required for a healthy lifestyle.

 

Nietzsche would have laughed at the argument that if our animal brains tell us to eat animals, there must be something right about doing it. He would also mock the idea that because animals eat each other, then we should eat them too. Since when have we based our morality on animals? Last time I checked the animal kingdom is a dark place with rapes, suffering, mutilation and murder happening every minute. What makes us human is our ability to transcend the impulse of the herd and build greater things. We are intelligent reasoning beings, not beasts.

 

Yes, it does. Let's take your argument about killing a person who can't feel pain: first, I agree that the ability to suffer is obviously not the only criterion otherwise it would be permissible to kill a person who can't feel pain. But think about this. We have brains that are capable of extremely complex simulations of experience, and we often think and worry about our future. If we believed that humans who do not experience pain were morally worthless, that would cause a significant number of people harm and worry; people would be terrified of becoming analgesic (insensitive to pain) because that would then make them targets of murder and exploitation. Clearly this is a ridiculous situation, and that is why we believe in the innate value of human consciousness and experience. Even if somebody does not suffer, they are still a person worthy of rights.

 

Plants, on the other hand, have no brains or consciousness. They cannot worry about the future or suffer. Eating a plant does not make other plants terrified of being eaten. They may be notionally 'alive' like animals and humans, but their kind of life has virtually nothing to do with what we understand our human life to be. It is stupid to pretend that plants have 'life' like we do - plants do not experience 'life' in any way. Therefore comparing killing a human/animal to killing a plant is beyond ridiculous.

 

Animals, on the other hand, are much closer to humans than to plants. They become anxious, protect their young, and have complex brains that as are capable as young children's. For instance pigs have been taught to play video games. It is a tragedy that we keep these intelligent creatures in narrow filthy cages, castrate them, and take away their young, before slaughtering them. And it is a common practice that most people in society pay to make happen.

 

I haven't even started on the environmental impact of factory farming. Cowspiracy talks about that.

When I said that "Animals do it" my point wasnt to say that just because animals do it, its also morally acceptible. My point was to say that there is no morals. For me atleast. Btw I may be very interested in Nietzsches philosophy, but I dont agree with him on everything so I dont get your attempt to use that against me.

Also I used the example with anestesia to just prove a point. Everything you said in that paragraph I also feel for plants.

 

We are capable of great and complex thoughts, but tell me this... What have we done with it? Look at the history. LOOK at what we have done with our complex brains that are, o, so high and mighty. And lets not say "Mmm'yeah but those people are idiots". No no. They are humans with that exact brain. You say animal kingdom is a dark place with rapes, suffering, mutilation and murder? Really? Cause the only real murder, rape, genocide, greed, hatred, hypocrisy and war that I see WE created. Our brains are more imperfect than you think. You think that the fact that we fret about things such as money, our jobs, bills, government and other illusory parts of our fucked up way of living is something to be proud of? We may be capable of great thought, but I also think that humans are the most stupid and fucked up beings of them all.

 

I simply value all life equally. I dont have that trip of humans and animals being of a higher order than plants. We exist thanks to them. I eat animals, I eat plants. I dont kill unnecessarily. I dont torture. The question now is if you guys that value animals so much more that plants, eat only plants? Or if you are only talking emptily...

 

 

 

joking I guess. If you think meat is the sole source of protein.

 

Check - Ragi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusine_coracana)

 

Source wiki:

"In southern parts of India, pediatricians recommend finger-millet-based food for infants of six months and above because of its high nutritional content, especially iron and calcium. Home-made ragi malt is a popular infant food."

And its just seeds of one plant. And it applies to adults too.

I know meat is not the sole source of protein. You made a point that we can eat things plants produce without harming them. Most "things" that we can eat without harming a plant is fruits and no, fruits arent exactly rich in proteins. Most vegetables are an integral part of a plant. To my knowledge atleast. Not sure about cereals. Can you get cereals without harnessing the whole plant? I know I would starve to death if I was to base my diet on those. Not saying its impossible but you will definitely lose weight!