Which MIDI / control keyboard you're using?

[antic604]

As some of you know I've been fiddling with music for years but have not really finished anything in almost 20 years...
 
Anyway, I recently decided I can re-prioritise some of my free-time towards music-making but one thing I found is that regular PC/laptop keyboard is terrible to quickly get the ideas down and changing parameters of FX or instruments with mouse is imprecise and cumbersome. Thus I started looking for control keyboards, likely with good velocity-sensitive keys (in 2-3 octaves), few programmable knobs, pads and faders. 
 
Few that caught my eye, are from respectable firms and are within the budget (say up to equiv. 200-250EUR) and have small enough footprint (25keys), as I can't really afford to take much place in home:

https://www.muziker.pl/en/alesis-vi25

https://www.muziker.pl/en/novation-launchkey-mini-mkii

https://www.muziker.pl/en/akai-mpk-2-mini

https://www.muziker.pl/en/m-audio-oxygen-25-iv

https://www.muziker.pl/en/novation-launchkey-25-mkii

https://www.muziker.pl/en/m-audio-code-25

https://www.muziker.pl/en/novation-impulse-25

https://www.muziker.pl/en/arturia-keylab-25

https://www.muziker.pl/en/akai-mpk-225-compact-keyboard-controller

https://www.muziker.pl/en/akai-advance-25

 

I'm actually thinking of that M-Audio Code 25, because it has an interesting combination of knobs, faders, pads + X/Y surface and ...looks badass

 

Anyone have experience with those? If you're using anything else what is it and how well it interfaces with your DAW of choice?

 

Thanks!

[Simonmush]

Hi im using the m-audio oxygen 25. ITs a good and cheap choice i think, though the velocity sensitivity could be a bit better. I like the combination of keys, faders and potis, the pads im not using really

[recursion loop]

I'm glad to see you back into music production, I remember some of the tracker stuff you posted here which was really good.

 

I'm also planning to buy a new keyboard and I'm leaning towards M-Audio Code 61. For what I know, these Code series have decent velocity and pressure sensitive keys and are easily configured for most major DAWs.

 

They also come  with free licenses for two synth plugins, Air Loom and Air Hybrid. These synths are not the best on the market but good enough to get you started (one is for basic substractive sounds with warm analoguish character and another one is additive, it sounds strange and digital). 

[antic604]

A stupid question within that topic - some of those keyboards (e.g. M-Audio Code 25) have knobs that turn around infinitely by 360 degrees, while others (e.g. Akai Mk2) are limited to a 270 degree cone and have min/max range.

 

What's the difference in practical terms? I would imagine that if in my song I have filter cut-off at 0 right now and I'll turn the knob right on M-Audio controller it will increase the filter respectively to how much it travelled (e.g. quarter of available cut-off range for 90 degree turn). However, what happens if in the same situation I'd use the Akai's knob, which - for example - was already in half of it's scale (middle between min & max)? Would the cut-off suddenly jump to half scale and then increase further?

 

I know there's some hardware where knobs & sliders have in-built motors and will move accordingly to to what's recorded in the song, but they're likely out of my budget

[Paul Eye]

https://www.muziker.pl/en/novation-impulse-25

This. It supports Automap, which for all practical purposes kicks ass

[antic604]

This. It supports Automap, which for all practical purposes kicks ass

 

Thanks for advice, although with Renoise that I'm planning to stick to for the moment I guess this is covered by their MIDI mapping function where I can assign any controllable parameter of Renoise's instruments, FX, VST(i) or the DAW itself to whatever controller (key, pad, knob, fader, etc.) I have? At least that's how I read it

[Padmapani]

i have a roland a300 pro and i'm happy with it. it has 32 keys and i really wish i had room for more. i cannot imagine being too productive with less keys.

there are plenty of knobs and sliders, having play/record/... buttons right on the keyboard is handy and the keys feel much better than those on the ancient cheap keyboard i had before (once you get used to them being a bit narrower).

the only issues (besides only having 2.5 octaves) i see is that for activating aftertouch you need to press so hard that you think you're going to break something and that after a few years of usage the knob i use for cutoff rotates a lot easier than the others.

[Paul Eye]

Thanks for advice, although with Renoise that I'm planning to stick to for the moment I guess this is covered by their MIDI mapping function where I can assign any controllable parameter of Renoise's instruments, FX, VST(i) or the DAW itself to whatever controller (key, pad, knob, fader, etc.) I have? At least that's how I read it

Well, of course basically any DAW software these days has that MIDI mapping feature. The advantage of Automap is that the settings are saved per plugin (in Automap) and not per project/DAW. You map your plugin once and those same parameters are applied to the controller no matter what software you open the automapped plugin in

[Djuna]

I know there's some hardware where knobs & sliders have in-built motors and will move accordingly to to what's recorded in the song, but they're likely out of my budget

The Behringer BCF2000 has motorized faders, I think it's around €200.

[antic604]

Well, of course basically any DAW software these days has that MIDI mapping feature. The advantage of Automap is that the settings are saved per plugin (in Automap) and not per project/DAW. You map your plugin once and those same parameters are applied to the controller no matter what software you open the automapped plugin in

 

Oh, that makes sense, although - for my workflow - I guess I'm looking for a setup where if I have let's say three plugins playing at once (bass, acid, lead), those are send to their effects (delays, reverbs, etc.) and I have 8 knobs, then I want to assign e.g. 1 knob to bass, 2 to acid, 2 to lead and 3 to the effects so that I'm able to control all of them simultaneously (with my 8 hands ) without switching from one instrument to the other.

 

Will Automap somehow help me with that?

[recursion loop]

 I'm looking for a setup where if I have let's say three plugins playing at once (bass, acid, lead), those are send to their effects (delays, reverbs, etc.) and I have 8 knobs, then I want to assign e.g. 1 knob to bass, 2 to acid, 2 to lead and 3 to the effects so that I'm able to control all of them simultaneously (with my 8 hands ) without switching from one instrument to the other.

 

Will Automap somehow help me with that?

I'm curious about that too

 

BS deleted

[antic604]

I'm curious about that too, but from the best of my knowledge a DAW can transmit signals from a controller only to the plugin which is currently in focus, so you'd have to click the synth on your screen before twisting a knob. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

Some DAWs allow packing plugins into containers, like FL Studio patcher, where you may assign the plugin parameters to the patcher's macro knobs, and then assign these knobs to your conroller's knobs. In this scenario any MIDI contoller will do what you want, but you'll have also to configure the patcher's midi inputs so that all synths didn't play at once. 

 

Not sure about other DAW-s, but I'm pretty convinced this is possible in Renoise, where practically every button, toggle, slider, etc. can be mapped to MIDI providing full control not only over the sound (VSTs, but also internal sample playback and internal FX), but also the mixer, sequencer, transport, etc.

 

http://tutorials.renoise.com/wiki/MIDI_Mapping

 

If you ever used trackers in your life I'd suggest to give it a go - it's really awesome & powerful (and comparatively cheap).

[recursion loop]

BS deleted

 

I remember I was messing about with a thingie called Fasttracker over a decade ago, but I prefer "conventional" DAWs now.

[antic604]

Ofc, most DAWs should allow mapping mixer channels volume and pan, playback start/stop and other stuff like that to a MIDI controller.  I didn't mean "DAW can transmit signals from a controller only to plugins", I've meant "only to the plugin which is currently in focus" 

 

 I understood that you want to control multiple synths at once from one hardware controller without manually switching between them in the DAW (e.g. you close the cutoff in one synth by twisting one knob and increase the detune in another synth by twisting another know at the same time), right? So I'm not sure how it could be made without internal DAW midi subrouting.

 

I don't know much about Renoise, but DAWs usually receive midi messages into midi channles, which further transmit them to virtual instruments assigned to them, so you need to specify the channel which must receive the messages in any given moment (otherwise how the DAW would know if you want to send this CC1 message to Synth A or Synth B since basically any virtual synth can accept CC1 and react to it?). Some DAWs have internal virtual busses which accept midi messages and then distribute it between midi channels in a specific way (moreover in modern DAWs midi channels are often not present in an obvious way but they are still there under the hood). I have no idea how it is done in Renoise, but you probably should look for something like channel layering or macro knobs.

 

However it pretty much may be that I'm overcomplicating it and the modern controllers do this kind of things in some elegant way, I'm not a big controllerist.

 

I remember I was messing about with a thingie called Fasttracker over a decade ago, but I prefer "conventional" DAWs now.

 

Yes, I know you understood what I was asking for.

I've put those questions to the guys in Renoise forum and we'll see

[recursion loop]

I talked to some people who have much better knowledge of MIDI protocol than me. It seems that I've posted a significant amount of bullshit here (which I just deleted in order not to spread misinformation) sorry

 

From what I've understood, you don't need Automap to do what you want, but depending on the DAW and synths/plugins you are using controller which allows to manually assign MIDI CC  to the encoders may be preferable. Code 25 does that   

[antic604]

@RL thanks & don't worry - you're not the only source of information. The guys at Renoise forums actually confirmed that it will work as I want it to, so now I need to decide which one to get.

 

I've basically narrowed it down to those three:

 

https://www.muziker.pl/novation-impulse-25- looks very clean, almost to the point of being too simplistic but I guess that's the point, i.e.it shouldn't distract from creative flow; the downside is lack of sliders which could be handy for controling the mixer

 

https://www.muziker.pl/m-audio-code-25- much more versatile with encoders, sliders, pads and X/Y surface, but on the downside it looks really complex and messy, with lots of buttons that change color

 

https://www.muziker.pl/arturia-keylab-25- it's got premium build (metal + wood) and looks like a proper synth (with access to 5k of quality instruments via Arturia's Analog Lab), but like Code 25 looks very complex; the downside? no pads and the fact that knobs and sliders are labelled (even though they're fully programmable) which might be confusing for general-purpose use.

 

I really wanted the bigger variants (49 keys), because they alleviate some issues I have with 25 key versions (e.g. sliders in Impulse 49, pads in Keylab 49, more of everything in Code 49), but looking at the videos they're simply too big.

 

Damn, I never thought it will be so dificult

[recursion loop]

The sounds that come with Arturia are the presets from their plugin synths packed into a separate plugin, you will have some possibilities to tweak and modify these sounds but not much. And people who have actual experience with the analogue synths Arturia claims to emulate say that sthey don't sound really similar, there are softsynths which do this much better, like U-he Diva. This soundpack may be useful for beginners but I wouldn't consider it a deciding factor.

 

I never had any analogue synths myself, but I have a Diva license and when I was comparing Arturias to it, I preferred Diva's sound in each case.

 

Good to know that you have an opportunity to talk with more knowlegeable people, when i was posting I was more or less sure about what I'm talking about, but in fact my understanding of MIDI is pretty poor, these days you don't really feel the need to understand how it works because you just plug it in and it works in 99% cases

[antic604]

So, I've narrowed it down further to Novation's Impulse 25, but when I saw this:

 

 

I decided to go for the 49 keys version, which has additional bank of 9 sliders. If this guy can make such a beautiful tune out of Galantis' "No Money" then I need to finally learn to play piano and I won't do it on a 25 keys keyboard.

 

Looking forward to my 40th birthday in 3 weeks

 

 

BTW, I came up with a new rule recently - every song is automatically "saved" by using Amen Break. Some years ago hearing it in every other tune - especially jungle - was tiring, but nowadays it's fresh again.

[Kai-Q]

My brother use an Novation Impulse 49 too and he's satisfied with it.

[antic604]

My brother use an Novation Impulse 49 too and he's satisfied with it.

Thanks. And what you use?

[Kai-Q]

Nothing

[onkelbibber]

I'm also very interested in the code 25.
Anyone have some experience with it?

And now seriously, does a keyboard really help a lot for psytrance production? I mean, of course you can make good stuff without it, but is it improving my workflow so much, that i really need one?

[Padmapani]

And now seriously, does a keyboard really help a lot for psytrance production? I mean, of course you can make good stuff without it, but is it improving my workflow so much, that i really need one?

imho yes. i move between two location and carry my headphones with me, the only thing i don't take with me is my midi keyboard — and to be honest when i don't have it i don't even bother making music most of the time. the only thing i seem to be doing is tweaking things and working on parts of the mix. the creative stage is just cumbersome without. if i got a melodic or rhytmic idea i would usually just play it in within seconds, but with the "caps lock keyboard" of logic, which is so inaccurate with timing, not velocity sensitive and so unnatural to play, getting the idea i had down correctly takes so long that i forget what i had in mind when i'm only halfway finished.

of course it takes some time to be proficient enough with the midi keyboard until you can just play what you're thinking about, but when you're at that stage you don't want to be without it anymore.

even when you're only working on fx, the ability to use velocity/modwheel/aftertouch and turn some knobs simultaneously while recording what you're doing in real time can be very handy.

[antic604]

Fully agree with Padmapani here - even if you don't play piano, having real keys will let you work out your melodic- or bass- lines quicker, to figure out key changes and chord progressions easier. Also it's much more natural than mouse.

 

Regarding M-Audio Code 25, before purchasing make sure you see it at a store. I was pretty convinced I want one, until I saw it - it looks great (although a bit like plasticky toy ) but it was much bigger than I expected even if by controller standards it is small, with just 25 kays. Considering I don't have dedicated studio / desk and work on a family laptop, I needed it much smaller, so I had my eyes one either:

 

 

or 

 

 

that size-wise or similar to a laptop - very light, portable and flat(ish). To give better perspective - the Arturia above is 15cm less wide, 5cm less deep and 2 cm flatter than Code 25; Akai is even slightly smaller.

 

Now, going further - and even if you decide for M-Audio - you need to consider few things:

- do you need pads and for what and how many,

- what kind of knobs you prefer - pots or encoders,

- do you need sliders,

 

The pads are great for drum sounds or initiating sequences / muting tracks / changing scenes, etc. so should be useful in playing live (or recording live). I don't think they're very useful for step-by-step recording, unless you can assign them to start/stop or mute/unmute.

 

The difference between pots and encoders is such, that the former have a scale around them, with clearly displayed min / max range in which they work (270 degree rotation), so just by glancing on them you know how much filter / resonance / distortion / etc. you're using. The encoders on the other hand don't have a scale and rotate indefinitely, so they just increase or decrease the value of controlled parameter depending on how much you twist them. You don't see where you are in the scale. For my understanding pots are better in synthesizers, where each knob has a precisely designated function - cut-off, resonance, drive, send, etc. For a controller though, where you use the same knobs for controlling different instruments depending on track you're in, you'll end up insituations where you switch from one instrument with say 100% cut-off (and the pot is at 'max') to other, where the cut-off is at 20% so if you now move the knob left the cut-off will jump to 100% to reflect the value on the knob. That's not the case with encoders, where turning left will simply decrease the cut-off down from current level, e.g. the 20% in this example. Also, once your song gets shape a lot of parameters that you control change over time (are automated), so the pots are never in a position reflecting current value.

 

I liked the idea of M-Audio Code 25 because it seems like a great compromise - it has 4 encoders, 5 sliders (which functionally work like pots, just in vertical scale instead of rotary), 16 pads and has added the X/Y surface that let's you control 2 parameters at once, e.g. cut-off and resonance on your 303 line. In 25-keys form factor it is probably unbeatable in terms of control options you'll have, but for me it's simply too big.

 

Personally, I'm leaning toward Arturia Minilab above, because it's small, has 8 pads (in 2 selectable banks) and 16 encoders, which suits the style of music I prefer - with a lot of things (filters, envelops, delays, reverbs, FX sends, etc.) changing all at once so I can e.g. assign 4 of those 16 encoders to cut-off on my bassline, acids, pads and lead instrument, other 4 to resonance, distortion or flangers on those instruments and I'm still left with 8 more to control effects and other stuff. In my case - the more is available, the better. I'm probably getting one this week

 

Read the reviews, think on how would you like to be using it and be sure to see the instrument with your own eyes!

[onkelbibber]

That's sone very good advises here. I already thought about my Future workflow in i getsome keys, but its Kind of Hard to imagine how the Controller will finally be integrated and used. Especially regarding the fact, that i want it for both, home Studio and maybe live Performance in the Future...

 

Thanks for your help and giving me some new directions to think about (Especially the Type of knobs)