Commercialization of psytrance - where do you draw the line?

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Well, if someone collaborates with Armin van Buuren to make a dj-friendly tune with sugary melodies and "hands in the air" breaks and buildups, then this is clearly no more underground and probably neither it is what people seeking for deep and meaningful music would like to listen. But in less obvious cases when do you say "no, this is sold-out crap, no go for me"? And does it matter to you at all whether the music falls udner the definition of "elitist/underground/not for everyone"?

[SixZeroFou4]

Well, if someone collaborates with Armin van Buuren to make a dj-friendly tune with sugary melodies and "hands in the air" breaks and buildups, then this is clearly no more underground and probably neither it is what people seeking for deep and meaningful music would like to listen. But in less obvious cases when do you say "no, this is sold-out crap, no go for me"? And does it matter to you at all whether the music falls udner the definition of "elitist/underground/not for everyone"?

Cash is king

 

Not so elitist when that life emergency happens and you are broke.. yet you can hate better than anyone and critique tracks like you pretend to know something yet you haven't even shared your own tracks.

 

None of that applies to you my brother

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If anything, the thread is not intended to bash anyone - neither the artists who want to make money, nor the listeners who pretend to be elitists, nor anyone else. Everyone is free to choose what to produce and what to listen to

 

I just want to know if there are any elements in music which people consider "not admissible" for psy, like it is not psytrance anymore when it has this or that.

[the goa constrictor]

Didn't Paul Oakenfold commercialize this back in the 90s? Then Infected Mushroom in the 2000s?
Psytrance will always be fringe because hippies are annoying and weird fast squiggly sounds aren't radio friendly enough.

 

Not sure what the commotion is...

[mundo]

Videos with autotuned chicks...

But how many producers can make a decent commercial psy song without sounding cheesy?

On the side, psy is great for action scenes (like breakbeat) unlike the more popular popular electronic genres.

[HappyHorse]

Goa Head, Distance to Goa, Destination Goa,... all were found during the 90's in big main stream shops. Labels printed easily 5000/10 000 copies of each release, so the music was much more wide spread and commercial.

Artists were (in some cases) even forced by labels to redo tracks so it was more accessible to a bigger audience (heard that story some weeks ago from a artist).

Also prices went down a lot. When I bought my first CDs in '99, there were €20/25, now music is €10 (average), while the average wage went up more percentage wise (and we still complain about high music prices - lol).

As far I'm concerned goa has never been so underground as it is now (talking about goa, not full on, dark, progressive,... I have no feeling with that scene as I not actively move in it).

[XoArK]

Well, with the advent of the internet, it makes it easier to find underground genres, like noise music. This can be proven easily by searching "psytrance" or "goa trance" on YouTube, and you will most likely find popular tracks that has over 100,00 views. In reality, nothing is underground anymore because with one quick search, you can easily find a genre you have never heard of. Noise artist Merzbow explains this more thoroughly in his interview, found here: http://www.15questions.net/interview/fifteen-questions-merzbow/page-1/

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I knew about Merzbow long before I learned that there is such a thing as "psytrance" (not that I ever liked his music).

 

Basically, when I see people writing things like this 

it seems there is a conspiracy to turn every kind of subgenre of electronic music into commercial sounding crap. 

in various threads and reviews i wonder what is the borderline of the "commercial sounding crap".

[Scandinasia]

It's all about the quality. Underground music is much more creative, more intense, more intelligent, more innovative. The artists express themselves through the music. There is a need of personnality.

Cheap commercial music proposes a product. It sells something and uses recipes to make people buy it, at the detriment of the creativity.

 

Personnally, I wish that underground music ceases to become underground and go mainstream. Standards need to be raised.

[the goa constrictor]

It sells something and uses recipes to make people buy it, at the detriment of the creativity.

 

I disagree with this last statement. While much commercial product can be bad, having rules or a recipe are not necessarily a detriment to creativity.

Sometimes having some guidelines and a canvas to paint within brings forth creativity and inspiration.

Stories are mostly written in a five act structure and those boundaries/rules/recipes sometimes force you into making choices which are beneficial to the story.

 

Obviously, this is not how everyone will approach these things, but that's my point.

An artist's work should be judged independently of the platform it is released in. If someone is releasing music with a commercial angle, that doesn't immediately mean it is without artistic merit or complexity...

[Ormion]

I don't care how much commercial it is as long is good.

Unfortunately underground music genres tend to lose their characteristics when they go mainstream.

For example commercial psytrance doesn't sound crazy at all because the mainstream audience don't like crazy music. That's why something like Psychopod would never be as popular as 1200 Mics.

That's the same with every genre. Compare underground metal with commercial metal. Or hip hop. Or dubstep. Even pop.

[acid-brain]

It's fine, there's loads of commercial music, loads of brilliant underground music too, enough to go around and more. After some years in the underground many artists feel they want to appeal to a wider crowd, that's their choice, and it happens within every subgenre. The underground always lives on.

[recursion loop]

It's all about the quality. Underground music is much more creative, more intense, more intelligent, more innovative. The artists express themselves through the music. There is a need of personnality.

Cheap commercial music proposes a product. It sells something and uses recipes to make people buy it, at the detriment of the creativity.

Great post. Basically yes, when certain genre reaches popularity everyone jumps on the bandwagon and the average quality goes downhill. This is what has happened to normal trance, and Israeli fullon or YSE prog are also good examples, although some great music still may be found in all these genres, it just takes time to filter out the crap. 

 

Well it seems that most of you don't think that when psytrance sounds accessible for the people who are not deeply into it (e.g. when it has "normal" melodies and doesn't sound overly harsh, dark or strange), it is "commercial crap" and no more psytrance by default. 

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Compare underground metal with commercial metal. 

Well, there is Nightwish and the likes and there is TNBM (and lots of things in between). Despite I mostly stopped listening to metal long time ago, I still can enjoy some of what you call "commercial metal" while the attempts to make the most extreme (harsh, noisy, chaotic, poorly recorded and produced) music for the sake of staying underground mostly sound laughable to me. Frankly I can say the same thing about some darkpsy, forest and goa. 

[Imba]

MWNN was commercial back in 90s comparing to other Goa - his style was described as 'Clubby Goa Trance'... TV, radio shows, charts, lots of intention towards him but was he bad? I don't think so.

 

 

 

 

Astrix is modern example of todays commercial but superb music. I am not into progressive but his new album is masterpiece in many ways!

 

[Richpa]

That is not progressive.

This is progressive:

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They both are prog, and I like them both (though i find Freq is more inseresting, it sounds innovative even today, but Astrix' album is extremely well produced although somehow derivative)

[Ormion]

Well, there is Nightwish and the likes and there is TNBM (and lots of things in between). Despite I mostly stopped listening to metal long time ago, I still can enjoy some of what you call "commercial metal" while the attempts to make the most extreme (harsh, noisy, chaotic, poorly recorded and produced) music for the sake of staying underground mostly sound laughable to me. Frankly I can say the same thing about some darkpsy, forest and goa.

I wouldn't call Nightwish commercial. For me commercial is something you could listen in a mainstream radio station.

I meant stuff like Evanescence or HIM.

[Meltwater]

I wouldn't call Nightwish commercial. For me commercial is something you could listen in a mainstream radio station.

I meant stuff like Evanescence or HIM.

 

This leads into a point I was going to make: location.  Location is everything.  Nightwish is very much "commercial" and something you could hear on a mainstream radio station in Finland, Sweden, Norway.  This sort of variation is the case with trance as well.  Trance was huge in Israel and Europe during the late 90's and early 2000's but frankly, for a long time the idea of "commercial" or "mainstream" trance in the US was an oxymoron.  Just Be by Tiesto never cracked the Billboard Top 200, and I mean that's TIESTO.  That album only got on the electronic Billboard charts.  When trance dominated the charts elsewhere it was still something Americans didn't really buy into.  I'm 29, I was in high school when that album came out.  I think there were 10 people in my school (including me) who knew who Tiesto was (out of 700).  If it wasn't something you'd hear at a baseball game or on an SNL skit (a la "Sandstorm" or "What is love"), trance was unheard of.

 

For comparison, since we brought up metal as well: Cannibal Corpse has made it to the Billboard 200 five times, one of which was in the top 50.  In the US, Cannibal Corpse has been more mainstream than most trance for much of the last 20 years.  Nile's 5th album placed higher in the Billboard 200 in 2007 than A State of Trance 2008 did the next year. For those who have no idea what we're talking about, Nile sounds like this (link). That sold better in the US than something Armin van Buuren made in the same time period.

 

Now, I understand what sort of music people mean when they talk about "commercial psytrance," mind you, but as a matter of verifiable fact psytrance is not and has never been commercial in the US.  Not even Astral Projection or Infected Mushroom; IM made it onto the Billboard 200 once, AP never has.  These are considered underground here.

[Richpa]

 

For comparison, since we brought up metal as well: Cannibal Corpse has made it to the Billboard 200 five times, one of which was in the top 50.  In the US, Cannibal Corpse has been more mainstream than most trance for much of the last 20 years.  Nile's 5th album placed higher in the Billboard 200 in 2007 than A State of Trance 2008 did the next year. For those who have no idea what we're talking about, Nile sounds like this (link). That sold better in the US than something Armin van Buuren made in the same time period.

 

That doesn't suprise me at all, I mean metal music has been very popular in US since the early days and nowdays most of the metal music (especially the extreme sub-genres) comes from there. Even it has been considered as a commercial band within metal community, Slipknot (for example) hit the #1 spot at Billboard twice selling 240k in first week with AHIG and 130k with TGC albums. Even Cannibal Corpse or Nile are not on the same level (not being known by wider audience), they actually play big venues, touring US and Europe most of the time and have significant fan-base. I'm not into Nightwish that much, but I disagree with the statement they're not commercial. Perhaps they're not that much popular in US like they're in Europe but they sold over 8 million records (for example: Slipknot - 40 mil, Evanescence - 25 mil,  HIM - 6 mil, Cannibal Corpse - 2 mil. - *top-selling death metal band of all time).

[antic604]

Personally I don't mind commercial stuff, I just approach it with the same criticism as everything else - if it's good, it's good. It just requires a little effort to dig through the s**t.

 

There was a time in my life when I wouldn't really listen to the music that's on the radio / TV, but nowadays I'm just selective, because some of it is really good, with unusual ideas, techniques, vibe or atmosphere, musical arrangements. As I pointed out several times I appreciate details in music - either technical or artistic -, therefore big budgets afforded in pop-music sometimes really pay off and result in some stunning creations. I even sometimes feel as if the pop producers are trying to one-up one another and come up with strange or unusually sounding music. Just listen to this - as a music, disregard the visuals and the lyrics. Musically and technically it's stunning - like a mix of Aphex Twin, Squarepusher and some ambient IDM. It delivers both on the superficial (pretty faces in video, sexual lyrics) and musical / technical... 

 

With psytrance however, being "commercial" more often than not just means catering to the lowest expectations, with simple music stripped out of any nuance and depth that's necessary for something to be considered "psychedelic" - it needs to be direct, flashy and easily digested but after 2-3 listens you know everything there is to know about the tune, there's no mystery, no hidden meanings and no 2nd (3rd and 4th) layers of detail... But, I don't mind this to exist at all - I just avoid it. Maybe some people will find "better" music because of it, even if just by googling for "psytrance" and finding some real stuff (provided they won't click the beatport pages, WTF?!?!). I also try not to be prejudiced and sample most of new music, just because there are gems hidden in the swamp

 

And BTW, as others have said already - psychedelic trance, the "proper" one (Hallucinogen, Doof, Cosmosis, TIP, Koxbox, GNoTR, etc.) was really commercial in late 90's. Like everything in life, it seems to go in circles - there are recurring trends for everything: music, clothing, hair styles, beards, even foods...

[recursion loop]

Just listen to this  

The intro was gorgeous but when he started singing I had to turn it off, I can't stand such vocal for the life of me. Which is sad cause the musical background is really great.

 

I see your point and generally agree. As for myself, I can enjoy some downright cheesy full-on stuff, I love Ananda Shake and mind you, I even have the damn "Electro Sun selection" folder on my PC (lol, I said that), This is just downright pop music of sorts, but have some their own twists, ofc they are not really psychedelic but make excellently produced energetic music with euphoric feel and not so tasteles melodies (ES often goes cringeworthy but sometimes manages to keep it under control) . Also losts of nuances may be heard if you listen closely. But most other pop-fullon doesn't have the same level of detail, mostly it's nothing but a simplistic melody thrown over a heavily compressed beat.

 

I think it's generally hard to make money from producing electronic music there days no matter the genre when everything is produced digitallly, distributed digitally and everybody and their mom can produce something or run a label, so it is mostly about facebook likes, followers and things like that. I mean "commercialization" in the sence of making music accessible to wider audience.

[antic604]

The intro was gorgeous but when he started singing I had to turn it off, I can't stand such vocal for the life of me. Which is sad cause the musical background is really great.

 

Yes, that's why I said "disregard visuals & lyrics". It helped me that I wasn't aware it's Zayn Malik from One Direction when I 1st heard in on a radio while driving to work 

 

That song has so many awesome key changes, especially the one leading to chorus at 0:45-0:55 or the bridge at 2:30-2:50. And it further sort of confirms my point - that with big "pop" music there's always the surface layer for the masses and some depth for those looking for it - that someone thought that repeating first 10s of the song is equal to instrumental version

[recursion loop]

I meant stuff like Evanescence or HIM.

Are they metal? I thought they are pop-rock or something.

 

Must tell this to my wife, she says that she hates metal but sometimes she listens to Evanescence.

[Meltwater]

You certainly won't find them included in lists of metal bands by most dedicated metal sources (see www.metal-archives.com for example), but I don't think this is the place for arguing metal genres and even if it was you'd regret getting sucked into those discussions (trust me).

 

Back on topic, I don't necessarily mind "commercial" psytrance if it's done well, but honestly my main issues with such commercial psy aren't really that different from my main issues with lots of lesser-known psy these days.  It's not the commercial-ness of stuff like Vini Vici that bothers me, it's the modernity.  It's the worship of bass at the expense of acid melodies, or really just melodies in general.  You go back to the old psy and goa up until around 2002 or 2004, and often the entire song had melodies throughout.  Those old Pleadians and Astral Projection songs had as many as five different melodies going on, it was very polyphonic stuff.

 

Now we have either bass throughout with a single breakdown section for melody, or we have the 150+ psy that's pretty much entirely abstract without melodies.  I like melody.  If I want abstract music I listen to something like Thomas Köner, Sleep Research Facility, Lustmord, Halo Manash.  If it has a dance beat I want melody. 

 

Which reminds me of the other trapping of modernity in psy, something it borrowed from commercial trance: every single song does not need a 20-60 second breakdown.  It's dance music, please keep the beat going.