Meat eater/Vegetarian/Vegan. What are you?

[reger]

I dont have time at the moment, but when I find time for it, I will go to hunter courses, get my license, buy my gun and will slay away at wild animals.

Until then, I will keep on eating either farm meat or local country side meat, was vegetarian for 8 years, been there, done that, its not for me, its not for humans as such and at the moment there is no way around balanced diet and balanced contains animal or fish meat, if you have to eat things that dont have enough bio available nutriotion, then you are turning into cow that will munch on greens all day long without benefits to your body.
Most of vegans or vegetarians, eventually, turn back to eating animal produce, it happens on average somewhere between 6-11 years, facts that emotions cant change.

[Void Mantra]

2 hours ago, reger said:

its not for humans as such and at the moment there is no way around balanced diet and balanced contains animal or fish meat.

Ridiculous statement. Studies have demonstrated time and time again that a well-balanced plant-based diet is appropriate at all stages of human developpement:

"Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses." - Harvard Medical School
" [...] appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases." - The American Dietetic Association

When it comes to facts, I'll favour serious scientific meta analysis over some anecdotal claims, thank you very much.

[Shpongled247]

Vegan here.

Its soooo easy nowdays there was just no excuse for me anymore a few years back.

Haven't looked back and never will. Can't believe i was raised to eat animals honestly.

[thanosp81]

There are some more general issues I would like to touch upon.

First of all, I don't like any kind of -ism. It puts you into a group with clearly defined traits and most of the time ppl on that group think they are better than the rest or they know the "truth". That can lead only to tensions. I like these kind of discussion not to prove to ppl that I am right, but to find out where I am wrong, or where my theories/ideas are lacking.  In that way I can really benefit.

Most of the vegetarians/vegans use in their reasoning the cruelty to animals, the way they are treated/grown and the "poisonous" substances they are fed etc etc. Yes, that is true, no question about it, not even a dedicated meat eater could deny that. But isn't that a different issue? I think that is a problem of an over-consuming generation. I think balance should be the keyword here. We, as a species, whether you like it or not, are omnivores. So a balanced diet is better that any other type. Or are you under the illusion that the vegetables you eat are not part of the over consumption problem? Do you think that the vegetables are grown under natural conditions? That they are free of "nasty" things? Do you, we, have any idea the damage we cause to the soil to grow all the vegetables we need? 

We have to stop over consuming. We need to find a way to coexist, or at least to be able to return back to earth "more" that what we use. That is our next evolution step. 

The "natural" way to go is to have a balanced diet, that includes everything we need to eat and no supplements. Being a vegan and having to take supplements? Doesn't sound right to me.

BTW, why do I personally have to kill the animals I eat? Do all vegetarians grow their own vegetables?  

 

I have more but I forgot Maybe later 

[Void Mantra]

2 hours ago, thanosp81 said:

We, as a species, whether you like it or not, are omnivores. So a balanced diet is better that any other type. Or are you under the illusion that the vegetables you eat are not part of the over consumption problem? Do you think that the vegetables are grown under natural conditions? That they are free of "nasty" things? Do you, we, have any idea the damage we cause to the soil to grow all the vegetables we need? 

We have to stop over consuming. We need to find a way to coexist, or at least to be able to return back to earth "more" that what we use. That is our next evolution step. 

The "natural" way to go is to have a balanced diet, that includes everything we need to eat and no supplements. Being a vegan and having to take supplements? Doesn't sound right to me.

BTW, why do I personally have to kill the animals I eat? Do all vegetarians grow their own vegetables?  

 

I have more but I forgot Maybe later 

Many things here;

"We, as a species, whether you like it or not, are omnivores."
And? Saying that we can do something doesn't mean we have to. We can eat meat but we don't have to. We can smack our child but we don't have to.

"So a balanced diet is better that any other type."
A vegan who eats chips all day long probably won't do well for sure. The thing is, you seem to imply the we need meat to thrive. What empirical evidence do you have to back this up? As a counter argument, I gave two sources: one from the Harvard Medical School, the other from the American Dietetic Association (see above). 

"That they are free of "nasty" things? Do you, we, have any idea the damage we cause to the soil to grow all the vegetables we need?"
I do. One more reason to go vegan. 70% of US grain goes to livestock. Do I live in this magic bubble where I think there's no collateral damage done whatsoever? Of course not. It's all about minimizing the amount of suffering of sentient beings. Also, the intention must be taken into account when it comes to ethics, in this case the intention of killing.

"We have to stop over consuming. We need to find a way to coexist, or at least to be able to return back to earth "more" that what we use. That is our next evolution step."
Yes. Not gonna happen if we keep treating animals as property and products. 

"The "natural" way to go is to have a balanced diet, that includes everything we need to eat and no supplements. Being a vegan and having to take supplements? Doesn't sound right to me."
Again, it has already been established that you don't need meat to be healthy. Quite the opposite, a balanced plant-based diet even helps reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease, diabetes and some cancers.  When it comes to supplements, vegans are indeed at risk of having a vitamin b12 deficiency. This can easily be addressed by eating soymilk, tofu, various nuts etc. Also, 90% of the B12 supplements we produce are fed to livestock. If you're truly anti-supplement, you should be vegan. 

BTW, why do I personally have to kill the animals I eat? Do all vegetarians grow their own vegetables?
Did I say that? Keep in mind, there's no evidence that plants are sentient, let alone capable to feeling pain and well-being. If they do, it is safe to assume that it's on a much lesser degree than animals. The argument that killing plants is the moral equivalent of killing animals is just silly.
 

[reger]

Void Mantra, you wont convince anyone here about how much better vegan diet is when compared to meat eating diet.

Extremes never worked well and if you have to stuff yourself full of supplements or order produce to be shipped from far-far away lands, then such diet is not sustainable for a human being to thrive on, end of story.

Since you like to advocate for scientific research, do your own google-fu and find data that speaks in favour of meat eating diet as well, dont pretend that the data isnt there. Some thrive on vegan, some on vegetarian, others on balanced meat eating diet, I know it hurts, but thats hard facts.

My own experience might be anecdotal to you, but it what counts for me, not some new age wishful thinking about what works for me or should work for me, here, in this part of the world. As I said, been there, done that, was meat free for 8 years, naturally returned to eating meat one day and thats what MOST of vegans/vegetarians return to, go check facts, scientific data, statistics.

We are not there yet to be able to turn 100% vegan/vegetarian, just because you think we should and some snake oil sellers tell you that we could, doesnt mean we can, there are other, much more serious things to be solved before we even can touch the sacred cow of vegans point of view considering meat eating.

[reger]

5 minutes ago, Void Mantra said:

If they do, it is safe to assume that it's on a much lesser degree than animals. The argument that killing plants is the moral equivalent of killing animals is just silly.
 

Well, well, well, what do we have here - double morals or bigotry :D?
Assumption, my friend, is mother of f-ups ;)! Dont assume and dont judge and then make false claims or empty assumptions, thats one big problem with all the white knights advocating pro-vegan lifestyles.

[Void Mantra]

45 minutes ago, reger said:

Void Mantra, you wont convince anyone here about how much better vegan diet is when compared to meat eating diet.

Extremes never worked well and if you have to stuff yourself full of supplements or order produce to be shipped from far-far away lands, then such diet is not sustainable for a human being to thrive on, end of story.

Since you like to advocate for scientific research, do your own google-fu and find data that speaks in favour of meat eating diet as well, dont pretend that the data isnt there. Some thrive on vegan, some on vegetarian, others on balanced meat eating diet, I know it hurts, but thats hard facts.

My own experience might be anecdotal to you, but it what counts for me, not some new age wishful thinking about what works for me or should work for me, here, in this part of the world. As I said, been there, done that, was meat free for 8 years, naturally returned to eating meat one day and thats what MOST of vegans/vegetarians return to, go check facts, scientific data, statistics.

We are not there yet to be able to turn 100% vegan/vegetarian, just because you think we should and some snake oil sellers tell you that we could, doesnt mean we can, there are other, much more serious things to be solved before we even can touch the sacred cow of vegans point of view considering meat eating.

"Void Mantra, you wont convince anyone here about how much better vegan diet is when compared to meat eating diet."
I presented conclusive evidence. Feel free to disregard facts all you want, I'm not your mom.

"Extremes never worked well and if you have to stuff yourself full of supplements or order produce to be shipped from far-far away lands, then such diet is not sustainable for a human being to thrive on, end of story."
Strange world when the ones who call for compassion and responsibily toward animals are called the "extremes" while the ones supporting the unnecessary slaughter of 60 billion animals are seen as balanced and normal.

"Since you like to advocate for scientific research, do your own google-fu and find data that speaks in favour of meat eating diet as well, dont pretend that the data isnt there. Some thrive on vegan, some on vegetarian, others on balanced meat eating diet, I know it hurts, but thats hard facts."
I can find just about anything on the internet; flat-earthers, pro-smoking institutes, you name it. Again, if the American Dietetic Association, the world's largest organization of food and nutrition, is no more credible to you than some random hack spewing non-sense on youtube, you are indeed living in crazytown.

"My own experience might be anecdotal to you, but it what counts for me, not some new age wishful thinking about what works for me or should work for me, here, in this part of the world. As I said, been there, done that, was meat free for 8 years, naturally returned to eating meat one day and thats what MOST of vegans/vegetarians return to, go check facts, scientific data, statistics."
Have fun with this idea.

"We are not there yet to be able to turn 100% vegan/vegetarian, just because you think we should and some snake oil sellers tell you that we could, doesnt mean we can, there are other, much more serious things to be solved before we even can touch the sacred cow of vegans point of view considering meat eating."
Again, more nonsense. I understand that 60 billion animal deaths per year is nothing too serious to you but it is to me; let's leave it at that. 

[Void Mantra]

40 minutes ago, reger said:

Well, well, well, what do we have here - double morals or bigotry :D?
Assumption, my friend, is mother of f-ups ;)! Dont assume and dont judge and then make false claims or empty assumptions, thats one big problem with all the white knights advocating pro-vegan lifestyles.

Assumption based on evidence. Plants have no limbic or central nervous system that I'm aware of. 

[juril]

6 hours ago, Void Mantra said:

Assumption based on evidence. Plants have no limbic or central nervous system that I'm aware of. 

I'd like to draw your attention to this book by Peter Wohlleben. Haven't read it yet, but will do so soon.

[recursion loop]

On 9/4/2018 at 11:59 PM, Void Mantra said:

 Studies have demonstrated time and time again that a well-balanced plant-based diet is appropriate at all stages of human developpement:

"Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses." - Harvard Medical School
" [...] appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases." - The American Dietetic Association

The problem with these studies is that they can prove basically everything the authors want to prove. You can manipulate things on different levels, the inclusion criteria, the statistical data, the interpretation of the results, whatever. By manipulation, I don't actually mean intentional distrotion of the study design and results, but rather subconscious bias of the investigators in favour of their ideas. 

 

I can readily believe that an avreage vegan may have equally good or better health than an average meat eater. As far vegainsm is usually associated with healthy lifestyle in general, a vegan is expected to do more excercises, drink less alcohol, if any, eat less sugar if any etc. What exactly provides the health benefits they are talking about, and how do we determine the effect of veganism alone? Aslo I think it is generally applciable to the 1st world countires mostly, where most people can buy high quality food of any kind.

 

But the bottomline is: why would anyone care what other people are eating?

 

[Void Mantra]

7 hours ago, recursion loop said:

The problem with these studies is that they can prove basically everything the authors want to prove. You can manipulate things on different levels, the inclusion criteria, the statistical data, the interpretation of the results, whatever. By manipulation, I don't actually mean intentional distrotion of the study design and results, but rather subconscious bias of the investigators in favour of their ideas. 

 

I can readily believe that an avreage vegan may have equally good or better health than an average meat eater. As far vegainsm is usually associated with healthy lifestyle in general, a vegan is expected to do more excercises, drink less alcohol, if any, eat less sugar if any etc. What exactly provides the health benefits they are talking about, and how do we determine the effect of veganism alone? Aslo I think it is generally applciable to the 1st world countires mostly, where most people can buy high quality food of any kind.

 

But the bottomline is: why would anyone care what other people are eating?

 

So you're basically a science denier since the same statement can be said of virtually every scientic papers. I guess you should visit the academy of nutrition and dietetics, which represents over 100,000 credentialed practitioners, and tell them they don't know how to conduct a valid scientific study.

But the bottomline is: why would anyone care what other people are eating?
Because the unnecessary suffering and killing of sentient beings is involved. Just so you know, pigs are as intelligent, emotional and cognitively complex as a 3-year-old child. On every front (ethics, environment, nutrition), I really don't know how a sane, humane and well-informed person can be in support of the meat industry.

I think I made my point. That's it for me guys.

[recursion loop]

1 hour ago, Void Mantra said:

So you're basically a science denier since the same statement can be said of virtually every scientic papers.

No. I just want to say that in some cases the gap between "there are some scientific evidences in favour of this" and "this is an established and undeniable fact" may be huge. E.g. I think the scientific evidences of that HIV causes AIDS or that smoking contributes to cancer are strong enough, but the scientific basis of that veganism (I mean veganism alone, not "healthy lifestyle" including veganism among other things) would actually provide benefits to any person in any age and any health condition is not really that strong.

Not to mention that you look obviovulsy biased so I guess that among all scientific evidences you are choosing only those which support your decision.

And yes, I do like meat

[Void Mantra]

4 hours ago, recursion loop said:

Not to mention that you look obviovulsy biased so I guess that among all scientific evidences you are choosing only those which support your decision.

And yes, I do like meat

I cited the world's largest organization on food and nutrition, which represents over 100,000 credentialed practitioners. When you claim that I simply cherry pick studies to support my bias, you are being intellectually dishonest. Pretigious, well renowned organization's final word doesn't equal those of Joe the butcher's. Expertise matter and not all studies are on the same spectrum in that regard.

For many, taste pleasure can justify just about anything and frankly it's disgusting. In that sense yes, I am biased. I am biased toward the well-being of our fellow animals who endure an infinite cycle of hell. I am biased toward love and care instead of enslavement and profit. I am biased against seing animals as product and property. However, I won't deny hard evidence.

I'm out. Take care people and please have a thought for the animals. That's all I'm asking.

[Monumental]

Nice forum thread. I think for some people in some places this problem do no exists, because, when they deal breakfast with ham sandwich they take sandwich with taste of ham. Not true ham. Chemical food. For chemical eaters. Seems the vote does not look complete.

[recursion loop]

As fas as scientific surveys go

Quote

Vegetarians displayed elevated prevalence rates for depressive disorders, anxiety disorders and somatoform disorders ... the adoption of the vegetarian diet tends to follow the onset of mental disorders.

This survey says that people with mental issues are more likely to become vegetarians. But another survey says that 

Quote

unsupplemented vegan diets pose great danger to brain health

Look, people, vegans are psychos! They became vegans because they are psychos and being vegans makes things even worse for them.That's science, bro!

Well, I just googled some articles for fun, picked some conclusions out of context and put them toghether. Just like you did, because 

Quote

appropriately planned vegetarian diets

in fact means lots of supplements which people outside of the first world just can't afford, and not appropriately planned ones mean lot of health risks, especially for children. In case of  developing countires health organisations recommend

Quote

Rearing of animals and promoting poultry, dairy cows, and/or fish 

because

Quote

Plant sources of vitamin A include β-carotene (pro-vitamin A) mainly derived from fruits and vegetables with relatively low bioavailability compared to retinol

which ends up in 

Quote

Diets containing insufficient vitamin A lead to decreased serum vitamin A levels, resulting in various physiological implications, especially tissue development, metabolism, and resistance to infection

 

 

[Void Mantra]

@recursion loop

"Vegetarians displayed elevated prevalence rates for depressive disorders, anxiety disorders and somatoform disorders ... the adoption of the vegetarian diet tends to follow the onset of mental disorders."
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc, look it up. The study precicely stipulates that "Importantly, we found no evidence for a causal role of vegetarian diet in the etiology of mental disorders.". 
It can also be said of psychopath (APD) that they blatantly disregards safety of self and others, show a pattern of irresponsibility and lack of remorse for actions. You see, I could easily play that game in regard to psychopathy and meat eaters; believe me, you don't want to go there.

Let's continue, the study also suggest that these disorders could be linked to a b12 and long-chain n-3 fatty acids (ALA) deficiency, both of which widely available in plants (soy and linseed oil, among others). Some people prefer animal slaughter over couple of b12 tablets a day; not me. It's also strange that this "survey" didn't make sure their vegetarian group (or all their participants really) had an adequate, balanced diet to begin with. I can eat potato chips all day long and be vegetarian. Not that I care much but here's a counter study: https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/1475-2891-9-26. 

Look, I'm not a nutrionist and debating its specifics bores me to no end. Having the largest nutritionist organization in the world (among others) stating that an [appropriately planned vegan diet is healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases] is strong enough evidence for me. 

Anyway man, that's it for me. I'm done here.

[Shineingrid]

On 8/28/2018 at 3:15 AM, tsotsi said:

Giving the vegans yet another chance to tell us all about it  

How I feel everyday

[Void Mantra]

7 minutes ago, Shineingrid said:

How I feel everyday

The image is actually telling. Indeed, when I think of the horror show that is the factory farming, my spontaneous reaction is akin to the man on the left. Sadly, the average person reacts like the lady on the right. Granted, totally unacceptable behavior on my end.

[recursion loop]

55 minutes ago, Void Mantra said:

I'm done here.

For the third time already 

Well, my point was that you can "prove" basically anything by finding articles and surveys published by serious organisations and giving quotes out of context. I don't actually believe that all vegetarians are psychos, calm down 

If we talk about vegetarian diets seriously, well, human species is omnivorous by nature. Actually the above example with vitamin A supports exactly this, human metabolism can adapt and use inferior vitamin sources for a short time, but it's an emergency solution, it was "invented" by evolution to survive the periods when our ancestors weren't lucky enough to catch some animals. I can believe that now it's possible to compensate for permanent lack of meat by various food additives. But I'm not so sure that anyone in any place in the world has access to these and has enough knowledge and education to plan good vegetarian diets.

 

So it's not like "if you want to be as good and moral as me just stop buying meat and milk, it's that easy". It's not that easy.

 

[Shineingrid]

On 8/30/2018 at 10:26 AM, thanosp81 said:

I can understand someone being a vegetarian (not vegan). But why stop drinking milk???

Because the cows in the milk industry are mostly inside, the cows have to have calfs to get milk, so they get inseminated and when the calf is born its taken from its mother. They get explotied by humans all their lives, and is killed when they are about 4 years. Cows have a normal potential ifespan of 20 years. Also a lot of milk prevent the absorption of iron and contains hormones. 

There is no disadvantage of using plant based milk in food or to drink. I cook a lot. 

 

 

[Void Mantra]

16 minutes ago, recursion loop said:

So it's not like "if you want to be as good and moral as me just stop buying meat and milk, it's that easy". It's not that easy.

Convenience is indeed a fine moral justification for the mistreatement and slaughter of sentient beings. 

[Tsotsi]

3 hours ago, Shineingrid said:

Because the cows in the milk industry are mostly inside, the cows have to have calfs to get milk, so they get inseminated and when the calf is born its taken from its mother. They get explotied by humans all their lives, and is killed when they are about 4 years. Cows have a normal potential ifespan of 20 years. Also a lot of milk prevent the absorption of iron and contains hormones. 

There is no disadvantage of using plant based milk in food or to drink. I cook a lot. 

 

 

To add to that the actual process of making it drinkable to the masses is pretty disgusting. Once you stop drinking cows milk for about 2 months it starts to become a pretty unpleasant flavour.

[Tsotsi]

3 hours ago, recursion loop said:

For the third time already 

Well, my point was that you can "prove" basically anything by finding articles and surveys published by serious organisations and giving quotes out of context. I don't actually believe that all vegetarians are psychos, calm down 

 

Case in point
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize
Actually some pretty good points on how veganism can negatively effect the ecosystem. I could find research to point otherwise as well.

The way I see it, humans aren't omnivores or herbivores, those terms don't really help understand us. back in savannah days we scavenged for bone marrow left over after the lions and hyenas had their share. We were little bitches, but we developed the ability to think, cooperate and create dreams of the future. That is infinitely more relevant to us than whether we eat beans or beef. 
We are human beings, the most powerful and complex beings on the planet, we can pretty much do what we want. But that obviously comes with the burden of responsibility to the rest of the planet. No other animal understands the planet like we do, so why not use that knowledge to procure the best planet we can? 

If you're willing to kill an animal yourself then I think you should be able to eat that animal. But if you sit in a city all day without the knowledge of the effects factory farming have on not just the earth but also our disconnection from the planet then you should reconsider what you eat. I'm vego for this reason.
 

Phew . . . all that just to let you know what I eat.

[Redo]

.