Meat eater/Vegetarian/Vegan. What are you?

[Tsotsi]

On 10/29/2018 at 2:20 AM, mudpeople said:

Anthony Bourdain made a great point, that vegetarianism as a moral choice is a First World luxury, that people in developing places don't really have the option and are just trying to survive with whatever they can scrounge, whatever it may be. 

Right you are and a good point. I've just come away from 5 months in South and Central America and I can tell you this is 100% true. vegetarian restaurants don't even exist in non touristy places because it just doesn't make sense for people who work 7 days a week to stop eating the animals that surround and support them. 

It makes me wonder what to make of the fight for veganism in Australia with its 23 million people when almost 430 million people across the ocean have no hope in hell of turning any time soon.

Lucky for us in Australia we have a pretty good solution no one really talks about. It's called Kangaroo, better for you, the environment, impossible to farm and as an actual pest the ecosystem benefits from the hunting of them. Obviously not a solution if the eating of living beings is what irks you.

[Void Mantra]

14 hours ago, tsotsi said:

Right you are and a good point.

Quite the opposite. Bourdain was a well-known hardcore hater of vegetarians/vegans. He famously said that vegans should kill themselves, which is ironic to say the least. His statement regarding vegetarianism being a luxury is not only biaised but just plain wrong.

More seriously:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/meat-supply-per-person?tab=map

"Meat consumption is highest across high-income countries (with the largest meat-eaters in Australia, consuming around 116 kilograms per person in 2013). The average European and North American consumes nearly 80 kilograms  and more than 110 kilograms, respectively. However, changes in consumption in high-income countries have been much slower - with most stagnating or even decreasing over the last 50 years.

Consumption trends across Africa are varied; some countries consume as low as 10 kilograms per person, around half of the continental average. Higher-income nations such as South Africa consume between 60-70 kilograms per person."

 

 

[Tsotsi]

Ahp well. I rescind that. 

Should check my stats. Having been there and spending considerable time in places not made for tourists I will say it has the appearance of a meat centric part of the world. Is it possible people just consume less in general? Hence a lower consumption of meat?

Even if not, maybe Australians eat meat in 3 meals a day but south Americans 1 or 2 meals a day, but those meaty meals are pretty essential to culture and economy from what I can tell. 

[Void Mantra]

2 hours ago, tsotsi said:

Ahp well. I rescind that. 

Should check my stats. Having been there and spending considerable time in places not made for tourists I will say it has the appearance of a meat centric part of the world. Is it possible people just consume less in general? Hence a lower consumption of meat?

Even if not, maybe Australians eat meat in 3 meals a day but south Americans 1 or 2 meals a day, but those meaty meals are pretty essential to culture and economy from what I can tell. 

Hey no problem man. Broadly speaking, people in poor countries simply can't afford eating meat on a daily basis. Vegetables, beans, insects, etc. come much cheaper. You're right though, some other components like culture can definitely play a role on a diet; India's Hinduism and lacto vegetarianism comes in mind. 

[Void Mantra]

Great speech from Alex O'Connor @ CosmicSkeptic

 

[psychedelic chipmunk]

Very well presented. He makes good arguments against animal abuse. Unfortunately, that is his focus. Not giving arguments in favor of being vegan, but giving arguments against animal abuse. These are not equivalent (during the Q&A he somewhat says these are equivalent from a purely ethical point of view). He goes a bit crazy around 14 min mark when he says "all you have to do to end all of this is to eat something else". I guess he's playing to the crowd.

A slight pet peeve. Whenever he claims something grandiose he supports it by "I think we all agree with so and so". He does this several times. I also think we all are against animal abuse. It's not relevant to support for veganism, because it is implicitly assumed that "cruel factory farming" is the only way to conduct it. It isn't. To his credit, he also knows he is exploiting this pattern and admits it freely during the Q&A.

 

[Void Mantra]

4 hours ago, psychedelic chipmunk said:

Very well presented. He makes good arguments against animal abuse. Unfortunately, that is his focus. Not giving arguments in favor of being vegan, but giving arguments against animal abuse. These are not equivalent (during the Q&A he somewhat says these are equivalent from a purely ethical point of view). He goes a bit crazy around 14 min mark when he says "all you have to do to end all of this is to eat something else". I guess he's playing to the crowd.

A slight pet peeve. Whenever he claims something grandiose he supports it by "I think we all agree with so and so". He does this several times. I also think we all are against animal abuse. It's not relevant to support for veganism, because it is implicitly assumed that "cruel factory farming" is the only way to conduct it. It isn't. To his credit, he also knows he is exploiting this pattern and admits it freely during the Q&A.

 

"Not giving arguments in favor of being vegan, but giving arguments against animal abuse." It's entailed. Veganism, at its core, is an ethical principal against needless exploitation, suffering and harm inflicted on non-human animals. 

"I think we all agree with so and so" That's rhetorical yes - that doesn't invalidate his arguments in and of themselves. 

"I also think we all are against animal abuse." Of course we're not, don't be silly. Each day, we pay for animals to but stabbed in the throat for palate pleasure. The notion that "cruelty" is a factory farm exclusive is just naive. It is not the case. 

One question, are you vegan? If not, why not? 

[psychedelic chipmunk]

Not vegan, yet. A lot of effort involved in making vegan diet work. Eating vegan doesn't automatically imply eating healthy. I struggle a lot with finding mostly animal product specifics (if not specific to, then very scarce among vegan-friendly products) most notably cobalamin and taurine to name some. I would need to hire a personal trainer to get a proper vegan diet going, but I already know which mixed diets work for me, so it's an easy choice. Besides, there're only 24 hours in a day.

[Void Mantra]

4 minutes ago, psychedelic chipmunk said:

Not vegan, yet. A lot of effort involved in making vegan diet work. Eating vegan doesn't automatically imply eating healthy. I struggle a lot with finding mostly animal product specifics (if not specific to, then very scarce among vegan-friendly products) most notably cobalamin and taurine to name some. I would need to hire a personal trainer to get a proper vegan diet going, but I already know which mixed diets work for me, so it's an easy choice. Besides, there're only 24 hours in a day.

"A lot of effort involved in making vegan diet work." It seems more difficult than it actually is to be honest. Eat a balanced, whole food diet, take your B12 vitamin, make sure you meet your daily caloric requirements and you're good to go. 

"Eating vegan doesn't automatically imply eating healthy." The same can be said of an omnivorous diet. 

"I struggle a lot with finding mostly animal product specifics (if not specific to, then very scarce among vegan-friendly products) most notably cobalamin and taurine to name some."
Technically speaking, cobalamin (B12) comes from bacteria, not animals. As such, it can be found in soil, water and some aquatic plants. Having said that, I don't see an issue with taking one B12 tablet once a week. It's also worth noting that 85% of the B12 production goes to farm animals. We are supplemented, whether we like it or not. Taurine, on the other hand, is not an essential amino acid. Nevertheless, it's widely available in synthetic form (vegan friendly) in most energy drinks. 

"I would need to hire a personal trainer to get a proper vegan diet going". If you're really concerned about your dietery reference intake, I highly recommend cronometer, it works wonder. 

I can easily be reached on discord. Let me know if you ever feel like exploring/debate this topic any further or if you have questions with respect to the core tenet of veganism. Have a good one. 

[recursion loop]

1 hour ago, Void Mantra said:

are you vegan? If not, why not? 

[Void Mantra]

2 minutes ago, recursion loop said:

When you're done poisoning the well, you can actually give me an argument. 

[Multi-Media]

I know this topic is super sensible and I was myself sensible when someone told me veganism is not good... I became a vegertarian and later even went in the vegan direction also.. went "not so good" to say it mildly(in the first 2 or so years yeahh, but do this better only 3-4 months!) - but I do not want to tell my horror life story re. to this. Here 2 ladies, listen to them:

 

Of course be aware, drinking too much milk, eating too much meat, eggs and cheap fats is also wrong. Find a balance, once a week meat is better than no meat and even better if not industrial foods, but just watch the vids.

[psychedelic chipmunk]

To me it's not so much about whether it's "wrong". I know what kind of diets work for me. A lot of the former vegans who say they don't recommend it do it mostly because they couldn't figure out their diet. I'm likely not going to, either, so I will just skip being miserable and instead stay healthy so I can work normally.

[GhostOnAcid]

On 8/10/2020 at 7:06 PM, Multi-Media said:

I know this topic is super sensible and I was myself sensible when someone told me veganism is not good... I became a vegertarian and later even went in the vegan direction also.. went "not so good" to say it mildly(in the first 2 or so years yeahh, but do this better only 3-4 months!) - but I do not want to tell my horror life story re. to this. Here 2 ladies, listen to them:

[...]

Of course be aware, drinking too much milk, eating too much meat, eggs and cheap fats is also wrong. Find a balance, once a week meat is better than no meat and even better if not industrial foods, but just watch the vids.

Iam not vegan, but I recommend that you deal with a vegan diet before you go in practice.

I read this book (only in german): "Vegan Klischee ade" by Nikko Rittenau. He is a nutritionist. His work based only on science. He doesn't gloss over anything, he says what the nutritional science say about veganism. A lot of quotes and a big list of references enable you to check his arguments. His conclusion: A vegan diet is possible and well tolerated and healthy if you pay attention to a few things.

https://www.nikorittenau.com/vegan-klischee-ade/

He has also a channel on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/c/NikoRittenau/videos

 

[Multi-Media]

@GhostOnAcid

EDIT, I do not want to discuss this, I just stated my opinion as the OP asked for. So I deleted my longer reply.

= Everyone can eat what he wants, as long you do not push it on others agressively (or using shaming etc. tactics)
 

 

[GhostOnAcid]

20 hours ago, Multi-Media said:

@GhostOnAcid

EDIT, I do not want to discuss this, I just stated my opinion as the OP asked for. So I deleted my longer reply.

= Everyone can eat what he wants, as long you do not push it on others agressively (or using shaming etc. tactics)
 

 

I think, there is nothing to discuss on my post. I only say there is a book about veganism which deals with facts, not opinions. I read this, because iam interested in nutrition to  change it to more vegetable nutrition. ;-)

My opinion: Everyone can eat what he wants, but should be concerned with his diet and its effects on the environment!

[Void Mantra]

On 8/10/2020 at 1:06 PM, Multi-Media said:

I know this topic is super sensible and I was myself sensible when someone told me veganism is not good... I became a vegertarian and later even went in the vegan direction also.. went "not so good" to say it mildly(in the first 2 or so years yeahh, but do this better only 3-4 months!) - but I do not want to tell my horror life story re. to this. Here 2 ladies, listen to them:

 

Of course be aware, drinking too much milk, eating too much meat, eggs and cheap fats is also wrong. Find a balance, once a week meat is better than no meat and even better if not industrial foods, but just watch the vids.

That's purely anecdotal; the lowest quality on the hierarchy of evidence. 

[Void Mantra]

9 hours ago, GhostOnAcid said:

My opinion: Everyone can eat what he wants, but should be concerned with his diet and its effects on the environment!

Great ethical framework. Hannibal Lecter would be proud. 

[psychedelic chipmunk]

I had the misfortune of being reminded of this bee ess, again. Almost as if quoted from some holy scripture, I was told that eating meat is bad and that I don't need it and..blah blah blah, by now you all know the lyrics by heart. Well, for one, I'm quite sure I know myself better than even my physician does and two, more importantly,

arguing for environment or stopping mistreatment of animals is NOT equivalent to arguing in favor of not eating animal products.

Tell me why a vegan diet is sufficient if you even want to HOPE for being taken seriously, don't proselytise about animal abuse or environmental concerns blowing things out of proportion when it's appropriate for you. While you're at it, maybe you can manage to convince the canines and felines and other predators to give up meat, too. 

As this topic has adequately demonstrated this discussion eventually leads to a "NO U!" stance. Both sides are saying the other's "evidence" is anecdotal. There is nothing remarkable to learn from zealots.

 

If anything, this "movement" has destructive cult vibes to it..

[reger]

On 9/6/2018 at 12:43 AM, reger said:

Well, well, well, what do we have here - double morals or bigotry :D?
Assumption, my friend, is mother of f-ups ;)! Dont assume and dont judge and then make false claims or empty assumptions, thats one big problem with all the white knights advocating pro-vegan lifestyles.

Oh the irony, I met a girl(few months after this "heated" discussion), whos vegan and me being lazy bum on making my food, I just started cooking vegan myself, learning from her, so theres that, been mostly vegan for past 4+ years 😂!
And, yeah, it has changed my stance on veganism, tho I still dont get aggressive either lifestyle propagandists 😁.

 

But to stir this ole, stale discussion a bit more - while for environmet and animals it is still better to be vegetarian or piscetarian rather than just bare meat eater, I'd rather see people either just eating whatever they please but keep their diets balanced or simply turn to veganism instead of half measures, at least talking about people who are vegetarian/piscetarian out of ethical reasons and not solely health reasons.

[psychedelic chipmunk]

A colleague who was singing the vegan mantra  about 1.5y ago has now abandoned it in favor of not trying to fight mother nature and accept that she is an omnivore  (as are we all). I recently visited my physician and had this conversation (again) - verdict: not recommended.

Now if you can make it work for you, more power to you, but don't be an arrogant prick thinking you know all there is about diets and decide for someone else how they should live their lives. Even mr skeptic  youtuber has recently admitted that he was having trouble with maintaining a vegan diet.

Applying the Occam's razor is useful - if you're having trouble with the diet, then that diet does not work for you. 

[draeke]

Many interesting points to this conversation and I for one embraced a mostly vegetarian diet with the addition of occasional fish for proteins (except octopus and lobsters which are too intelligent and killed in a horrible and cruel way).

I also alternate real milk with oat/soy/almond milk just because I feel it's wrong to abuse cows and try to have a balanced way of consuming milk.

I started this diet in 2019 and never looked back. For the first few months, I still craved meat but it quickly became easier and I started to feel much much better since I gave meat up.

I believe there can be some people who may not be able to be vegan/vegetarians as the video said as for the way their body processes the food but I really feel, at least for me, animal cruelty is the one and only real reason to stop eating meat at once.

After seeing countless videos of animal cruelty I cannot but feel horrible about the meat industry and am now firmly against it, no matter the way you keep the animals, I just am against it.

I believe we have been brainwashed long enough and if someone doesn't feel anything when seeing animals killed and abused, well, that's a huge red flag for me and I cannot really have anything to do with people with a different opinion.

I don't impose my views on anyone but I thought it was important for me to share them here.

 

 

[technosomy]

11 hours ago, draeke said:

Many interesting points to this conversation and I for one embraced a mostly vegetarian diet with the addition of occasional fish for proteins (except octopus and lobsters which are too intelligent and killed in a horrible and cruel way).

I also alternate real milk with oat/soy/almond milk just because I feel it's wrong to abuse cows and try to have a balanced way of consuming milk.

I started this diet in 2019 and never looked back. For the first few months, I still craved meat but it quickly became easier and I started to feel much much better since I gave meat up.

I believe there can be some people who may not be able to be vegan/vegetarians as the video said as for the way their body processes the food but I really feel, at least for me, animal cruelty is the one and only real reason to stop eating meat at once.

After seeing countless videos of animal cruelty I cannot but feel horrible about the meat industry and am now firmly against it, no matter the way you keep the animals, I just am against it.

I believe we have been brainwashed long enough and if someone doesn't feel anything when seeing animals killed and abused, well, that's a huge red flag for me and I cannot really have anything to do with people with a different opinion.

I don't impose my views on anyone but I thought it was important for me to share them here.

 

 

Feel the same way, and octopus 🦑🐙 yes!!! They are not of this realm

[astralprojection]

I love meat. We have evolved for 250000 years by eating meat. It's in our dna. There's vitamins, aminoacids, proteins in meat that we can't get from vegetables. 

Having said that I loathe the meat industry. They treat animals like inanimate objects. I'd much rather you go out and hunt for your meat than having these poor pigs live their lives in a cage, same as chickens. Only knowing pain. Psychosis. 

I've seen pigs try to eat the metal bars in order to try to escape.. It's messed up. 

We really do need to step up as a species and stop the suffering. Animals are intelligent, have feelings, and knows the difference between love and hate. And have the capacity for both. 

Nothing makes my soul more happy than seeing animals be free and do what they want to. 

[reger]

One day all these arguments will be solved, aside from the looniest folks, when all meat gets 'brewed' in bioreactors.