RTP Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Hello together today I had an argument at work and I'm curious what you people say about it: I recently thought, at a psy party, "man this music has gotten loud." Really. Louder than before! I had a pretty "spot on" comparison because I visited a location where I was at a few parties many years ago ... the place hasn't changed much ... same walls, same dark smelly curtains - meaning, the way the sounds travel are more or less the same. But boy, was it loud! Much louder than I remembered. Psytrance never was so loud before, in my opinion. At least not at that venue. I always put something in my ears on parties ... but it was so loud I felt I had nothing in my ears at all. It never was like that in the past. So, my argument was and still is: Music has gotten louder. Specifically: the level people play psytrance at parties has become louder. My colleagues said no: The music stayed the same level. Our ears have become more sensitive because we are getting older. (My colleagues have no clue about psytrance though.) What is true? I am throwing in, for my side of the argument, a video done by "Eric C" called "the loudness wars" ... he's basically saying that music is getting louder indeed - it's not our ears, it's the mastering that make the recordings louder. That video is not about psytrance - but I think it's the same in our scene, maybe even more because we are relying on digital production techniques even more and it's these techniques that are "making the music louder" ... or not? (it's 18 minutes ... if you don't have the time, comparisons are from 5:00 onwards) If that goes on in our scene, which I believe it does, then that would make it logical, that psytrance in 2019 on the same PA system and at the same venue sounds considerably louder than in 2010 maybe ... doesn't it? What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsotsi Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Ooh, new Skeletone track. I always wonder about those comparison graphs that show modern music exceeding the range of the screen. Eg:- But also wonder if the range that modern music operates in has a wider boundary/sound stage so those images don't do it justice. Any way I think definitely music is getting louder, ears ringing from all electro clubs I visit is super common these days. Sometimes really shit sounds that I don't want to hear fill the room and make me wince... Eherm, Techno Smoke machine sweep noise. That brings me to another point. The techno smoke machine sweep noise can suck my balls. I've heard lots about the loudness wars, seems like a legit thing. Tell you what i've never seen, a video that says my ears are getting old and music is the same volume. What else would they be making new speakers for? You can tell your friend that Tsotsi says he is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astralprojection Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 alot of that is a natural progression in technology. its (was) a very difficult feat to allow such loudness to sound actually good; compared to a fully dynamic image. so as people got more skilled in mixing; aswell as the gear/software got better - its a feat of strength to be able to have a track be louder than your friends. while retaining a good sound.. ofc that was only true up until a point; to where it became the norm to mix and master for loudness. thats when i think it went downhill and we need to collectively reverse it; by simply releasing music thats more dynamic. again. but ofc the first people to actually do release such music (in the psy scene); will have tons of issues when they are much more quiet and lacking impact* like everyone elses.. i think we are probably stuck with making music for loudness :/ * of course this "impact" is very relative. if the norm was -12 lufs instead of -6 lufs; then the dynamic image at 12 lufs would have much more punch and impact as the limited -6 track.. but since the norm is -6 ; the track at -12 will sound really "bad" relative to all the -6 lufs tracks.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted December 11, 2019 Author Share Posted December 11, 2019 Hey, thanks for confirming my impression! I wonder whether it's a good thing, these ringing ears after club visits. It's definitely getting worse... Good point about the graphs ... I do think these images don't do the sound justice anymore... I agree it's just the evolution of technology and habits ... music evolves into becoming louder and our hearing evolves into adapting to "this must sound like that". 3 hours ago, astralprojection said: but ofc the first people to actually do release such music (in the psy scene); will have tons of issues when they are much more quiet and lacking impact* like everyone elses.. i think we are probably stuck with making music for loudness :/ But there exactly is the point. It's a vicious circle! Who will be the first to take a step back in loudness? It will sound weak! And the first one who does it will get flamed for doing so. That's pityful Only escape is fleeing into other genres? I guess so. I won't flee though ... oh and 7 hours ago, Tsotsi said: The techno smoke machine sweep noise can suck my balls. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astralprojection Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 i think its probably not long until someone sets their foot down and others will follow, thats really all it takes. a "revolution" if you will :p maybe thats optimistic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 yeah, but who's gonna start ... it's like artists sitting on a cliff like basejumpers on their first jump, everybody looking at each other and saying "you go first" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astralprojection Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Haha indeed. But it would be great.. Many parties already have very powerful peak limiters and adding something like a la-2a should sound pretty good to increase loudness on the fly. It really doesn't have to be loud on the actual cd or download. Festivals could dynamically increase loudness instead. Small clubs will struggle and ofc let's not talk about the poor djs who will have to choose songs more carefully or invest in his and her own loudness limiter. Loudness should be chosen by the guy playing his/her music, the festival or the dj. In a perfect world.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padmapani Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 for home listening the loudness wars have pretty much come to an end with so many people using streaming services that normalise loudness. but for parties (and we're talking about edm here) i don't see any change yet or not even a solution on the horizon. pa's are not infinitely powerful and as long as there's a loudness limit (also enforced by a limiter to protect the equipment or maybe to conform to government regulations?), tracks with less dynamic range sound louder and therefore more powerful before they become so squashed that every single element gets lost in a world of mush. in most clubs "modern" progressive sounds infinitely clearer and fatter than goa trance for that reason. to make matters even worse i recently had a conversation elsewhere (not psy-focused site), where some producers (!) said they prefer hard limited clipping tracks for their harsh aggressive sound. they gave an example of a dubstep track mastered to a whopping -2.8 lufs. if you match the loudness to any properly mastered track it sounds extremely wimpy and flat, just like pure garbage (a term that i'd also use to describe the track musically btw ), in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astralprojection Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 12 hours ago, Padmapani said: but for parties (and we're talking about edm here) i don't see any change yet or not even a solution on the horizon. pa's are not infinitely powerful and as long as there's a loudness limit (also enforced by a limiter to protect the equipment or maybe to conform to government regulations?), tracks with less dynamic range sound louder and therefore more powerful before they become so squashed that every single element gets lost in a world of mush. in most clubs "modern" progressive sounds infinitely clearer and fatter than goa trance for that reason.i Why wouldnt putting a leveling amplifier / limiter in the chain at festilvals solve it? Its very expensive, but a solid investment. That way it wouldnt matter what volume the program material was, it would normalise it to whatever you would want. Im sure many festivals already has this so basically loudness mastering on the fly.. theres already a sound crew so theres really no reason it shouldnt be able to get solved rather easily; If whenever the labels decide to put out non fully-limited-to-the-wall music. which is still, in 2019 not really great - . - -5 to -8 lufs (current norm) is a bit too loud in general.. -2.8 is just absolutely ludicrous Goatrance in particular sounds the very best when the kickdrum is clearly at the bottom and the hihats at the top,; with everything else front and center.. imho and thats even coming from me who really loves the clean/digital neogoa sound. In the future home users in addition to a dac and headphone amp/active speaker; could have a discrete limiter. I mean why not.. You have the best of both worlds; then. Instead of just the boring linear volume control, you have an actual threshold knob for the limiter. And then companies can compete on getting the best sounding pro-fi limiter. (TM) Ofc this whole premise relies on artists and labels to cease the loudness war, while still being able to ouput desired loudness at whatever event. #hAsHtAg give loudness back to the people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padmapani Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 11 hours ago, astralprojection said: Why wouldnt putting a leveling amplifier / limiter in the chain at festilvals solve it? Its very expensive, but a solid investment. That way it wouldnt matter what volume the program material was, it would normalise it to whatever you would want. Im sure many festivals already has this so basically loudness mastering on the fly.. theres already a sound crew so theres really no reason it shouldnt be able to get solved rather easily; If whenever the labels decide to put out non fully-limited-to-the-wall music. which is still, in 2019 not really great - . - -5 to -8 lufs (current norm) is a bit too loud in general.. -2.8 is just absolutely ludicrous Goatrance in particular sounds the very best when the kickdrum is clearly at the bottom and the hihats at the top,; with everything else front and center.. imho and thats even coming from me who really loves the clean/digital neogoa sound. In the future home users in addition to a dac and headphone amp/active speaker; could have a discrete limiter. I mean why not.. You have the best of both worlds; then. Instead of just the boring linear volume control, you have an actual threshold knob for the limiter. And then companies can compete on getting the best sounding pro-fi limiter. (TM) Ofc this whole premise relies on artists and labels to cease the loudness war, while still being able to ouput desired loudness at whatever event. #hAsHtAg give loudness back to the people a limiter on top of already limited music? i would expect sound crews already do some loudness normalisation between sets manually. i think the problem doesn't really lie in big festivals but rather your average club. the sound systems there don't have any sort of levelling and with the most popular stuff that draws the biggest crowds sounding louder than the rest i don't see much interest in the people responsible to make any change. -8 would be quite an ok standard (if you're talking about fullon or similar. goa trance would ideally have a little more room still). the usual -6 or so does take away a bit off the transients already. -2.8 is definitely just insanity, but still people are asking "how do i get my tracks as loud as that". if we continue down that road, ending up with pure square waves to max out what is possible loudness wise isn't far away the limiter for home use is an interesting proposition (with the upside surely being that we'd then only get unlimited music to play though, so no more great tracks ruined by atrocious overlimiting), but if that some day becomes the norm (though i doubt it with the majority of people caring so little that they listen to any crappy music that happens to be played on the radio now through crappy speakers), we still have a long way to go. having to re-adjust the settings for every track you listen to would be quite a hassle and even modern automated mastering systems like landr often enough butcher a mix quite badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astralprojection Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 18 hours ago, Padmapani said: a limiter on top of already limited music? i would expect sound crews already do some loudness normalisation between sets manually. i think the problem doesn't really lie in big festivals but rather your average club. the sound systems there don't have any sort of levelling and with the most popular stuff that draws the biggest crowds sounding louder than the rest i don't see much interest in the people responsible to make any change. Sorry I meant after the end of loudness wars*, festivals could employ loudness mastering on the fly in addition to the peak limiting they already do. which is basically the same thing just one extra step. (that however do needs supervision; and thus much more costly than automatic peak limiting) Indeed small clubs will suffer because they won't have the budget (assumingly) to do this in any sort of controlled way.. (as it could potentially be dangerous and hurt peoples hearing) although its not a huge stretch either to assume they also will adapt to the "new" loudness well put. Continuing this road will lead to a kickdrum and everything else is square waves and the hihat is just white noise on top of the distorted squares. But yeah, probably that wont happen, but it IS indeed the end of that road. -8 lufs is just right for many styles, i do agree on that but just generally its right at the edge at least for pure goa. Home users are like you say; not really caring about that extra steps to ensure quality, but there's still alot that do enjoy fine wine aswell as fine music Landr probably distorts masters in many ways other than just the limiter *obviously alot of this wars HAVe ended, with streaming services just like you said. IMHO it doesnt get much better than for example MQA from Tidal. Thats really one of the bests way to enjoy music... its specifically mastered towards around -14 lufs i think? so there dont have to be any extra limiting added by the service itself; and its also ofc very high res. thats the best way to enjoy music currently for sure and i dont even have a tidal account i dont listen to enough music to justify it. at least not yet. but i get to use a friends account from time to time and it is truly a pleasure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted December 15, 2019 Author Share Posted December 15, 2019 18 hours ago, Padmapani said: -2.8 is definitely just insanity, but still people are asking "how do i get my tracks as loud as that". if we continue down that road, ending up with pure square waves to max out what is possible loudness wise isn't far away It might even be that we need to reach that limit in order for people to realize that they're at a dead end and need to go back...? Anyways thanks for the outlook ... I believe it will still continue like that on parties for some time... 9 hours ago, astralprojection said: MQA from Tidal ...do they offer any psytrance there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astralprojection Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 18 hours ago, RTP said: It might even be that we need to reach that limit in order for people to realize that they're at a dead end and need to go back...? Anyways thanks for the outlook ... I believe it will still continue like that on parties for some time... ...do they offer any psytrance there? Last I checked, no psytrance. It was a while ago, there's about a million songs there now so should be some psy in there, I'll look next time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefreewave Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 We are in the brickwalled era. Even psytrance must suffer the same fate or sound not so up to par. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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