Classic Goa Trance basses/leads/FX recreated in modern software

[astralprojection]

I think this is a topic many of us want, to see classic Alpha Juno and Juno-106 patches (AP - Dancing Galaxy) aswell as classic SH-101 patches (Simon, X-Dream +gazillion) or the famous JD-800 patches by Etnica/Pleiadians (Hmm Roland = Goa?) - recreated fully including sound signature and fx - inside your daw..

 

while id concede its impossible to 100% nail it, id accept anywhere from 51-90%  for the thread! most of us arent pro and that would be very acceptable and fun to chat about even if we cant nail it.. Just emulating the output stage of any of those synths for example should be a chore since youd really have to have one in order to re-create just the right filtering+noise+eq+compression+samplerate+phase etc etc....that the unit already has once you hear it... let alone the actual sound synthesis itself....

 

What would be interesting in this topic is to see patches including fx-chains that comes very close to a certain sound or a certain melody or a bass patch or whatever - made inside modern DAWs; based on whichever song/sound you want.. Im currently trying to emulate the dancing galaxy lead so that lead me to the thread...

So the PWM + LFO modulated Astral sounds of the Juno-106 or Alpha - for example, id love to see recreated in say Diva or any wavetable synth.. Aswell as the mixing to get it close to that dirty 90s sound..... Well okay thats the sound Im working on so not that one, but as an example. 

Get that old track you love, load up any daw and try to get close and post here. 

 

[recursion loop]

Take a look at TAL synths, Tal Juno LX is a Juno 60 emulation, it's different synth than 106 but should be a good starting point. It's got a really squelchy filter. TAL-Bassline-101 is an obvious choice for 101. Tal-Mod doesn't emulate anything specific but it has that early VA/mid-90 vibe all over it, great for supersaw and FM leads.

 

Add some tape and/or console emulation and you are good to go.

 

As far as Diva goes, I have that old sketch that never evolved into a track, all Diva except drums. Sounds wannabe oldschool i think 

 

 

 

[astralprojection]

Yeah youre right they CAN be made in many different software nowadays; which is why I made the topic  Its still hard to re-create though. But yes since we do have the tools to do it, i guess your comment just validate my topic!

Thats some nice sounds in that track of yours!

[Imba]

Just use older VST, don't do processing, have it dirty and screaming and there you go

[astralprojection]

On 6/20/2020 at 3:30 PM, Imba said:

Just use older VST, don't do processing, have it dirty and screaming and there you go

Not quite though. I was thinking a bit more specific than that. I'll post the dancing galaxy lead once I'm happy with what I've got. It's kinda hard to recreate and if its so easy then prove it :p

[Multi-Media]

@recursion loop

Sounds like you are pretty close to the Astral Projection feel with your example, thumbs up. Dont you have the project anymore so can make a song from the sketch?

At topic: A friend many years ago had a JP8080 this was really a fat one, so I am curious to hear what you guys can reproduce, I also think it is not so easy as Mr. Imba says. But he can prove it. 

I have a VST (free) named Superwave which is said to be some Roland emulation but I forgot which one LOL I have a Nordrack2 safely stored away, but no good mixing desk anymore and only 1 old SE50 Effect unit. When my current tracks are hopefully finished only used software, I will setup my 2 HW synths again I guess, it is just more fun with them... and Nord has some unique sounds. 
Well I could also accept the challenge with the limited means (and time) I have, it would be not lost one can use it in a track.

[Multi-Media]

Ok I searched a bit, here a thread Astral gear:

http://forum.vintagesynth.com/viewtopic.php?t=58134

And here a video in studio: some stuff can be seen
 

 

 

 

[Multi-Media]

On 6/24/2020 at 12:18 AM, AstralSphinx said:

The most important thing is to use windows xp or windows vista, since it adds some extra crisp lol  

I actually USE XP (only for music of course) my old Logic (Emagic not Apple!) does not run on newer OS..I have some old Logic projects and these will not translate to newer Windows cause the format is different and some VSTs do not run on newer OS!

[recursion loop]

1 hour ago, Multi-Media said:

Sounds like you are pretty close to the Astral Projection feel with your example, thumbs up. Dont you have the project anymore so can make a song from the sketch?

Thanks, yes I think I still have the project. Maybe I'll make a track of it but not now, I deviated from that style somewhat.

 

I have another complete track in a kinda similar style if you are interested

I think that synth you are talikng about was Superwave p8, it was supposed to emulate Roland JP 8000. It's old and not especially good, it was made with Synthedit afaik. Diva's JP8000 oscillator must be much better, also there is Adam Szabo's JP6k. Adam Szabo is a guy who did a PhD thesis on the  supersaw.

[Multi-Media]

12 minutes ago, recursion loop said:

Thanks, yes I think I still have the project. Maybe I'll make a track of it but not now, I deviated from that style somewhat.I think that synth you are talikng about was Superwave p8, it was supposed to emulate Roland JP 8000. It's old and not especially good, it was made with Synthedit afaik. Diva's JP8000 oscillator must be much better, also there is Adam Szabo's JP6k. Adam Szabo is a guy who did a PhD thesis on the  supersaw.

Well it is not my style too, but it would be fun to prove we can do it (read my idea above) I totally are with you that one wants to use the limited time for his own vision of sound... but maybe we can scrape up some of it. My "style" is usually darker with industrial/darkambient tones I would say. Started some kind of "doom-industrial" track even with a guitar (oops yes I do not like guitar in psy but dig it, in other metal gothrock punk styles).. listen tomorrow your other piece, good evening gents. 
Superwave P8 is ok for free I think not near the real thing just like synth1..

[Multi-Media]

12 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

 

Heh cool, I started out on emagic logic on pc, that is it was my first real DAW experience, after rebirth and reason if my memory serves me correctly.

I "started" on Magix Musicmaker and a friend was making "blackmetal" with a playstation composer Then Logic 3.6 or so the first I tried with real musicmaking, there was no vst with this. Now the last Win version = 5.51. Tried back in the days, Fruity and Cubase, but straight back to Logic. Then was not making any music for ca. 6/7 years but kept all the music stuff incl. my Logic...Downloaded a week ago Reaper, which can be and tried out for free for a while, and was so confused even looking at it that I de-installed it after 30mins trying to get something with it haha.... did not want to really use it anyway but was curious how it looks/feels.

[Multi-Media]

 For video game sounds, funny that you say this, cause last week I got a neat little free plug in named "invader". And yes, this connects to "Space Invader" (an old video game).

There are more than enough older plug ins one can get - and using old stuff and not looking much at all what is out there new gear, new vst´s etc. also helps not get lost in all the new options (and get lost of rare money) one now has. 

 

[astralprojection]

21 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

removed links they sucked

i had a listen before you removed and i think your main lead was very close to the astral juno sound =) 

definitely in the ballpark!

 

yup ap did not have any supersaw synths afaik (virus, jp8000) maybe they had the nord lead 1, but im not sure. what i do know is they made most of their leads using the alpha juno with the MKS-50 programmer aswell as the juno-106. Which is pretty much the same as the alpha except its easily programmable wheras the alpha was either a very annoying menu diver; or with an external programmer such as the MKS. And it can 100% be recreated using Diva or pretty much any synth that has PWM and have the ability to modulate the pulse width using LFO. ( i tried using spire, an excellent wavetable synth that has this capability; and it can most definitely be made in spire aswell. its not easy though.  im almost there... )

 

what would be really cool to see is someone recreating the sounds of the JD-800. That one is a beast with 4 sources, each source having VA (+additive and perhaps fm) and Sample capabilites. so the closest thing in software would be Alchemy, since it also has 4 sources and actually does More than the jd-800 could.

If theres one guy here who can bless us and already has blessed us its Filteria, but then again he actually has the hardware.. so thats cheating  at least for this thread..

[Multi-Media]

Watch the video above, I saw a Nord (1 or 2?), 2 x something from Walddorf (1x Microwave), a 303, some "rompler" it looks like from Roland (JD/JV something?) and an EMU Morpheus ah and 2 x Oberheim something. Guess you guys can identify more...

The JD800 was very good especially for pads iirc. I believe there is a rack version (990). In theory one needs only 2 good samplers.. like F242 they had the Emulators mostly. And Depeche also...they were used a lot in their tracks, more samplers than synths. Well for more moving sound like Goa, of course a real synth with many knobs is desired.

[astralprojection]

17 hours ago, Multi-Media said:

Watch the video above, I saw a Nord (1 or 2?), 2 x something from Walddorf (1x Microwave), a 303, some "rompler" it looks like from Roland (JD/JV something?) and an EMU Morpheus ah and 2 x Oberheim something. Guess you guys can identify more...

The JD800 was very good especially for pads iirc. I believe there is a rack version (990). In theory one needs only 2 good samplers.. like F242 they had the Emulators mostly. And Depeche also...they were used a lot in their tracks, more samplers than synths. Well for more moving sound like Goa, of course a real synth with many knobs is desired.

yes, i will watch the video  they likely had the JV-1080 rompler which was very popular at that time. Oh ofc the EMU line, like the EMU Emulator II for example.. 

 

The jd-800 was more than pads and samples, think of 4 different VAs, romplers, additive and (i dont know if they had FM capability) all in one. And 4 sources so each source could be a saw wave or a sample from the rom, or -- well see i dont know more than that about the jd-800. yes the rack version was the 990. Etnica made many of their signature sounds with the JD - someone said once, maybe it was Draeke. and filteria said once that the lead from Spiritual Healing was made with the JD aswell. so much more than pads =)

 

and hallucinogen had the very unique british synth called OSCar; looks really really wierd but sounds absolutely fantastic; youtube it and you will instantly recognise the simon sound in there.

[astralprojection]

7 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

Indeed, ask him  he is/was a member here  I remember atleast that he was a veeery long time ago.

I'm gonna play around some more with recreating some AP sounds tonight, this time I will listen to the actual album at the same time, way easier to get the detune right that way. By playing along to the album.

What sounds besides the leads interest you the most? Point me to some track/album/sound  The FX as you've allready touched upon was an integral part of their signature sound. The ping pong delay from the Alesis Quadraverb was very popular among the goa trance producers of the golden era, and if my memory serves me right I think Filteria used that one as well. This unit was/is very affordable, and gives a very good spatial 3D sound to the synthesizer sounds run through it when combined with a hall reverb. As can be heard here with Hallucinogen:

 

And here with I Savastano on the TB-303 + SH-101 or the Juno-106. 

The Alesis Quadraverbs ping pong delays can be reproduced easily on all kinds of delay plugins, particularly on Native Instruments Replika and Replika XT.

the Eventide Harmonizer was also instrumental in getting that Hallucinogen sound. 

Ah, Id love to see the Etnica/Pleadians leads re-created i find those to be particularily hard to do and ive not yet gotten fairly close. And the jd-800 was apparently the main focus in their tracks and when you think of the etnica sound; its the jd-800 that was responsible for the bulk of it. Apparently. Anyway maybe the leads of Time Dilation or Zeta Reticuli could be a big challenge, but then again the same leads are in most of their stuff.

Yes replika XT is for sure the 90s goa sound (as far as delays go anyway), i urge everyone to get that one!

[astralprojection]

Your input in the thread has been amazing and at least you participate : ) 

edit: everyones input has been amazing  

 

Well if you feel like going towards MFG instead, thats fine with me I love mfg, how about the crazy alien sounds of We Are The Machines? pick any lead or sound from there, should be plenty of fun ^^ 

the bassline is really great, and it sounds like a juno for sure. speaking of cool basslines, transwave did their basslines with the mc-202 IIRC; which is pretty much like a different version of the sh-101. pwm with the sub oscillator mixed in high. evident in all transwaves stuff and sounds really good =) 

[astralprojection]

On 6/25/2020 at 7:01 PM, AstralSphinx said:

Yes the MC-202 is very cool, particularly for acid lines since it has accent, which the SH-101 lacks. However it needs a mod in order to work better, as it has a weak CPU or flawed design or something that introduces massive lag when controlling it externally if I remember correctly. I love the form factor/portability of it compared to the SH-101.

any progress on the MFG stuff? =) ofc, you could chose any track you want, but you specifically asked for MFG so  i think if anyone can do it its you. Im still working on the dancing galaxy lead, i think the sound itself is pretty much close to being finished, just need the right amount of noise and filtering, but the notes.... maybe the tuning wasnt perfect on the original dancing galaxy; cause it seems borderline microtonal at times; or im just in way over my head with that one. i even put the original to 100bpm to more easily recreate the pattern but i think the tuning isnt fully perfect on the original causing that slight microtonal feel.... Or its just a vibrato and nothing more complicated than that, but yeah it aint easy thats for sure... And whatever I come up with sounds super stale in comparison..

 

 

[MikroMakro]

There must be something in the air as when I spotted this thread some weeks back I was trying to recreate a Cosmosis bass, mainly for fun so I learnt a little about the old ways of bass whilst experimenting. 1) Try the Novation Bass Station VSTi, common bass synth of the era, I owned the original hardware back in the day. 2) Blend some square wave into your saw. I made commentary some time ago about an Etnica bass having some extra "vibrancy", adding some square in gets this result. You can also try adding a very very small amount of some kind of chorus type effect, 1-2pct (or maybe the very smallest touch of I.M. Wider, the trick with any artificial pseudo stereo is use a very small amount, be tasteful.) so you keep most of the low end stable but have just a very small amount of width to it, just enough to subtle-y tickle the ears. Just a very small amount and set it up on headphones and monitors for the right effect for both.

I imagine any soft synth you can blend some square and of course the obligatory envelope control LPF.

I have a love hate relationship with making old school inspired tracks. On one hand it can be fun, on the other it has all been done before and very, very well.

Tryptamine dream is one of my favourites from A.P. The main lead to me sounds like a Supersaw (with correct amount of detune/spread) in an arp/repetitive overlapping note MIDI pattern with some portamento/glide which gives it a slightly on the edge of being out of tune (which adds to its smeary slippery-ness) with a wash of very nice reverb. That should get you close.

[astralprojection]

15 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

. The tuning can be a bitch sometimes with these old tracks due to various reasons, I certainly feel you on that one. Sometimes it's a combination of things, for example the scale used plus how they set the tuning of the oscillators, sometimes amplified by unstable osc tuning, and then some external chorus which further adds variation to the timbre can mess with your ears a lot. And when the ears get fatigued, it can often become difficult detecting pitch correctly. Gonna boot up logic now to see wuzzup  

It sounds promising that you seem to have got the timing and the pitch of the individual notes, have I understood the progress so far correctly? So now it's only the finer details of the actual patch and effect chain that needs some work?

Yes the tuning is my biggest problem atm. I have the basic melody but the tuning on my attempt seems too perfect and doesn't have the organic feel of the original. Your input on this is greatly appreciated and think youre spot on. (about analog synths going slightly out of tune aswell as chorusing causing such an effect aswell)

 

I also think I've read that they also had a phaser on most of their leads, and the key there i think is that both the chorus and the phaser is summed to mono, which could cause both phase issues (pleasing and interesting ones that may even actually cause a shift in pitch) and ofc if you normally add unison or chorus the sound becomes wide, but not in this case as I'm pretty sure dancing galaxy lead is all mono..

My progress currently is that I have the pattern somewhat, aswell as the patch built in spire and one in diva. Gonna try tal uno-lx too and see which sounds closest, currently my spire version sounds the best but it's not fully there yet. Thanks, I'll send you a pm.

 

 

BTW such a very cool topic it became I did not expect it to be so fun already even if its mostly talk at this point. I need to put up or shut up I guess 

 

[astralprojection]

3 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

There must be something in the air as when I spotted this thread some weeks back I was trying to recreate a Cosmosis bass, mainly for fun so I learnt a little about the old ways of bass whilst experimenting. 1) Try the Novation Bass Station VSTi, common bass synth of the era, I owned the original hardware back in the day. 2) Blend some square wave into your saw. I made commentary some time ago about an Etnica bass having some extra "vibrancy", adding some square in gets this result. You can also try adding a very very small amount of some kind of chorus type effect, 1-2pct (or maybe the very smallest touch of I.M. Wider, the trick with any artificial pseudo stereo is use a very small amount, be tasteful.) so you keep most of the low end stable but have just a very small amount of width to it, just enough to subtle-y tickle the ears. Just a very small amount and set it up on headphones and monitors for the right effect for both.

I imagine any soft synth you can blend some square and of course the obligatory envelope control LPF.

I have a love hate relationship with making old school inspired tracks. On one hand it can be fun, on the other it has all been done before and very, very well.

Tryptamine dream is one of my favourites from A.P. The main lead to me sounds like a Supersaw (with correct amount of detune/spread) in an arp/repetitive overlapping note MIDI pattern with some portamento/glide which gives it a slightly on the edge of being out of tune (which adds to its smeary slippery-ness) with a wash of very nice reverb. That should get you close.

Which Cosmosis track? A few months ago I tried recreating the bass and main lead of Moonshine. I got close to the bassline, may even post it here and it was also made in spire. The main lead with all those glorious 32th notes I did not quite nail yet. 

And thanks for a really great and interesting post, I'd love to hear what you have. Yes tryptomine dream is also one of my very favorite ap tracks. 

[MikroMakro]

Indeed Moonshine, an incredible track, very advanced and futuristic sound for its time, I still dance to it. I had the bass 90-95pct nailed albeit a different pattern, add the square wave in and you get a special something : ) Maybe he will drop by one day this thread and let you know, Billy Cosmosis comes across as an all round nice chap, you could probably ask him on his YouTube channel he seems pretty open to commentary and questions.

 

[astralprojection]

11 minutes ago, MikroMakro said:

Indeed Moonshine, an incredible track and very advanced and futuristic sound for its time. I had the bass 90-95pct nailed albeit a different pattern, add the square wave in and you get a special something : ) Maybe he will drop by one day this thread and let you know, Billy Cosmosis comes across as an all round nice chap, you could probably ask him on his YouTube channel he seems pretty open to commentary and questions.

 

Yeah I've had convos with him on YouTube. (maybe you even saw our convos )He is an amazing guy, really love him alot. Haha moonshine you too?? Yes I used both a saw and a square aswell as noise. Spire is awesome cause it has 4 sources and each source can be whatever you want and it has deep modulation abilities and extremely easy to work with. Sound reminds me of a mix between jp8000 and Virus. But sadly lacks a little something. But nothing that a little transformer distortion in the fx chain couldn't add. Anyway spire is really freaking good at pretty much anything except it lacks just a little something special in the sound department... Otherwise I'd say its the perfect VA. 

[astralprojection]

He was never here. Yeah he used the basstation iirc for the acid synth and to get the desired distortion he pushed the channel on the first mixer to max then ran it into another mixer and pushed that channel too. Analog distortion at its finest. But ofc it's all recreatable in software you just have to think a little outside the box no pun intended, to get the right sounding noise, distortion, and even passive filtering and compression that's the nature of resistors and transistors in any analog unit.. So some people who say software sounds thin and lifeless aren't incorrect but it's certainly possible to emulate each step in the analog process inside software, it just gets really really technical and quite difficult to nail something so abstract and almost esoteric nature of how the audio is processed in an analog chain..... Anyway I'm rambling.. 

 

Yes he used both the albino and the vanguard aswell as zebra synths - at least for his tutorials on YouTube. But back in 98 he used basstation, and one i can't remember right now but I'll edit this post tonight to add it in, it's one that doesn't get too much mention and it's not a Roland. 

 

Edit : it was the waldorf pulse

[recursion loop]

Cosmosis also used Virus, I have a Virus preset bank made by him. I think these sounds were originally made in Virus B, so they can be almost exactly recreated in Viper VSTi (in fact I did recrfeate some of them and some of these recreations even made it into Viper's factory presets).