Why psytrance has NO future..

[Paul Eye]

Possibly. Radio might just have been the final death blow

(and just for the record, it IS among my absolute favourite 90s albums)

[the goa constrictor]

Goa Trance didn't die. It just changed its name to Suomi <3

[fluorosis]

Silly me, I wrote a long discourse actually replying to the video that started this thread.

I now realize that absolutely no one watched the video,  and they merely turned this topic into another argument about which trance from when is the best.

The video actually had a totally different and coherent point, but then folks who won't watch the video, considering it "clickbait" will be happy to expound on topics that are NOT in the video the OP posted.

[the goa constrictor]

I watched the video!

I don't remember much at this point, kinda in one ear and out the other...

[fluorosis]

fair enough.

Boris Blenn makes nice music. Etnica was great precisely for what it represented and sounded like when it first came out, with respect to everything else going on at the time.

Endless attempts to "clone the magic" look like some plastic surgery ducklips. 

Message to the world: Stop living in the past and make the music of the future so I can nitpick it errrrm test my new car stereo with it

 

... i mean since we have a topic free-for-all I'll just drop my usual refrain that you will see me repeat in all threads always henceforth, lol

[Basilisk]

9 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

Well yes the thread de-railed long ago. And I think people felt the original topic wasn't much to discuss perhaps since the topic creator hasn't participated.  

I'm guessing this video is actually some kind of sneaky promo for his new album or something along those lines. I'm not sure why the mods haven't moved this somewhere or closed the thread, it's obviously just bait.

[recursion loop]

On 7/11/2020 at 2:08 AM, Padmapani said:

not necessarily. it depends on how you define and and melodic.

is this dark and melodic?

certainly dark, but is there enough melody to be called melodic?

or this?:

certainly darkpsy derived and melodic (esp. the latter third), but is it really dark?

or this?:

a darker vibe, melodic, but it's the kind of goa trance that's more chaotic than anything else.

btw: i don't find asia tribe dark at all. imho it falls in that sweet spot that's neither happy nor dark, where most "cosmic" or truly psychedelic music can be found.

IDK, none of these sounds melodic to me. Maybe only Lunarave, some bits in the second half. They aren't completely atonal but that's not enough to call them melodic. By melodic I mean some sequence of notes that makes some sense on its own without the sound by which it's played and the surrounding synths and beats. Basically soemthing you could play on a piano or guitar and it would still sound recognizable and express some emotion.

 

As far as Lunarave goes, this track has some good melodies

The Asia Tribe track has  great depressive/dystopian vibe which I really dig. To me it actually sounds  "darker" than a typical darpsy track with all the howling synths and random FM noises.

[recursion loop]

5 minutes ago, AstralSphinx said:

 So  often it's about chords/arps utilizing regular chords, often lots of minor chords, and often diminshed chords/scales thrown in for good measure. For that haunted feel.

One needs to know some musical theory for that, rare thing amoung psy producers 

Check out some South African twillight, like Tickets or Brethren

 

Or some U-Recken

 

[Bartzabel]

1 minute ago, AstralSphinx said:

Thanks for the links will listen after my forest walk, btw I wonder why knowledge of music theory is not so common within the psy scene? In the regular trance scene It's very common to atleast know more about chords in general. I can't really present any statistics to back up these observations. But it's quite evident when comparing the genres. 

It's not that common because you can write a bassline, program a beat and program a basic melody with no problems. Tweak the synths, add samples and use software to make it sound presentable. Get gigs, a record deal and be happy. Why waste time on theory when it won't increase your chances of making it?

I had a well known producer from Zenon over a couple of weeks ago who said the same thing. Zenon doesn't have melody so why waste time studying the theory?

i know theory because my parents made me learn piano as a kid, but I rarely apply much to my electronic productions. It does come in handy when I'm tracking guitars though, as I can give good advice to them on how to make the music interesting. 
 

take the guitarist called Teloch from Mayhem, great bloke but know barely any music theory. He knows how to tremolo pick Norwegian style, he knows basic scales and that's all he needs to do the job. Why waste time learning more when you don't need to?

 

[recursion loop]

I think someone who is muscially trained or can play a musical instrument will make better electronic arrangements even in non-melodic genres because when you can actually play music you have better feel for things like call-response, tension-release, climax etc., also you can drop an occasional key change or a small melodic line to make things more interesting.

That's may be why electronic music becomes less exciting as a whole despite all the cool software we have in our disposal, younger folks never saw anything but a DAW in their lives and they learn various production tricks from Youtube having zero musical backrgound.

 

It's a kind of polarizing topic whether psytrance needs melodies, some people cosider psytrance should sound challening and melodies, especially  of more accessible, pleasant sounding kind, should be avoided because they would make it more cheesy and less psy. I, for one, think that a great melody can turn an otherwise forgettable track into a masterpiece. I listen to various kinds of psy but 95% of my favourite tracks contain at least some melodic parts and most of them have some elaborated melodic work.

[astralprojection]

@recursion loop

good stuff

 

[recursion loop]

On 7/11/2020 at 1:50 AM, Padmapani said:

as long as we forget about the ultra-cheesy pop-fullon we enjoyed so much around 2008. 

Fixed that for you 

 

[Multi-Media]

15 hours ago, fluorosis said:

Silly me, I wrote a long discourse actually replying to the video that started this thread.

I now realize that absolutely no one watched the video,  and they merely turned this topic into another argument about which trance from when is the best.

The video actually had a totally different and coherent point, but then folks who won't watch the video, considering it "clickbait" will be happy to expound on topics that are NOT in the video the OP posted.

This is a bit insulting, I watched the video and even asked some questions about it...also explored some other content by the OP (or as some would say gave him clicks). That the thread turned the way it did, shows even threads with no future can be turned into something worthwhile to read imho. Even if OP does not care about his thread at all

At the melodic topic, guess the British industrial pioneers or Einstürzende Neubauten had very little melodies at all (as the name implies it was more noise and rythms), however somehow started a music movement and are considered "cult" or groundbreaking to this day. Later mixed with Kraftwerk and early wave it became ebm and techno and... in goas case added Indian and Hippy music influences

[fluorosis]

4 hours ago, Multi-Media said:

This is a bit insulting, I watched the video and even asked some questions about it...also explored some other content by the OP (or as some would say gave him clicks). That the thread turned the way it did, shows even threads with no future can be turned into something worthwhile to read imho. Even if OP does not care about his thread at all

At the melodic topic, guess the British industrial pioneers or Einstürzende Neubauten had very little melodies at all (as the name implies it was more noise and rythms), however somehow started a music movement and are considered "cult" or groundbreaking to this day. Later mixed with Kraftwerk and early wave it became ebm and techno and... in goas case added Indian and Hippy music influences

 I'm so very sorry for insulting you personally rather intentionally, clearly.

Back to the point:

Are they being remixed? (Einstürzende Neubauten) and isn't Kraftwerk precisely being remixed due to their iconic melodies?

I rather agree with the video's point. Without an iconic melody or, i don't know, hmmmm "musical hook", a song has little to offer a remixer nor cover by another musician. I'm not sure that you challenged this point here. 

The OP was referring to a song's virality, durability, re-digestability, and while I even provided avante-garde cover for being able to consider an iconic rhythm or abstract sound to be memorable musical content that could be remixed, I don't see a single comment referencing the 500 word essay I provided you on the topic. 

Don't worry, however, as I'm not insulted

[Padmapani]

the whole point of the op can be easily refuted with a single word:

Techno.

[fluorosis]

1 hour ago, Padmapani said:

the whole point of the op can be easily refuted with a single word:

Techno.

?  as far as I can remember, for a techno track to be remixed outside of it's original release frame/promo campaign there's typically a signature melody...

which techno tracks that don't have signature melodies, riffs, hooks, of some kind get remixed a decade later?

I'll grant you that a vocal hook or rhyme or rap will suffice, like that insipid "they don't know what is what, they just strut, what the fuck" track...

 

I don't understand how this refutes the videos point that one needs something musically iconic as content for a remix.

ones' kick drum isn't sufficient material for a remix, or maybe I'm missing out on something major here?

 

Hey wow, I became "enlightened ape"! I love that album. Shakta has loads of signature hooks/melodies, lol

[Veracohr]

15 hours ago, Basilisk said:

I'm guessing this video is actually some kind of sneaky promo for his new album or something along those lines. I'm not sure why the mods haven't moved this somewhere or closed the thread, it's obviously just bait.

Well it sparked a discussion about psytrance, so it seems like the appropriate forum to me.

[Multi-Media]

15 hours ago, fluorosis said:

 I'm so very sorry for insulting you personally rather intentionally, clearly.

Back to the point:

Are they being remixed? (Einstürzende Neubauten) and isn't Kraftwerk precisely being remixed due to their iconic melodies?

I rather agree with the video's point. Without an iconic melody or, i don't know, hmmmm "musical hook", a song has little to offer a remixer nor cover by another musician. I'm not sure that you challenged this point here. 

The OP was referring to a song's virality, durability, re-digestability, and while I even provided avante-garde cover for being able to consider an iconic rhythm or abstract sound to be memorable musical content that could be remixed, I don't see a single comment referencing the 500 word essay I provided you on the topic. 

Don't worry, however, as I'm not insulted

OPs point was not only the melodic one, to which I agree certainly if we take popular music, to a large extent music eg. in the charts is melodic. Except much of this hiphop shit fashionable in the last years. The Op also provided some names as example what he meant has future, eg. Vini Vici or Astrix IIRC. So I looked up Vini Vici tracks (I posted 2 above) and did not find them futuristic or bringing something new to the table (I found them a bit cheesy tbh), so was wondering why this would have future in particular? But if cheese and age old concepts are now the future ok - then I am not :)

You could have looked up remixes yourself, there are enough:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=einstürzende+neubauten+remix

Also Skinny Puppy have more then enough, and only some tracks are known for the melodies, in fact much of theirs were also quite noisy:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=skinny+puppy+remix

But I guess in the end it is a matter of taste, or of own definition of a term "has a future" or "is dead" (in musical terms, not medical LOL)

 

 

[fluorosis]

mmmm I'm convinced that a hook is necessary for virality.  His point is that "darker" styles are basically sound-design and a contemporary beat, which I agree with.
It's not to say that there aren't SOME Skinny Puppy remixes, but you'd be hard-pressed to isolate a singular iconic riff, sound, rhythm, etc. Skinny Puppy is a perfect example of anonymous grunge, and yes I had cassettes of their music and thought it was the Bees Knees when it was, etc... but it's ultimately grist for the mill.

Whereas some earworm pop tune like Frankie Goes to Hollywood, "Relax" has such a stupidly simplistic melody (for the day, we've hmmm "upped"? the ante since... aka hold my beer while I sing one note and call it a main melody) but it will be remixed endlessly.

It's not really consequent what you or I like, musically speaking, to be able to recognize the basic principle at work here, as it's the essence of a "catchy tune" since tunesmiths first began to ply their trade. A bard who could compose catchy melodies tended to eat better than their more underground peers, lol... I dunno.

He's basically telling us that pop music is popular because it's catchy, to the degree that it's actually catchy and not the result of mere marketing hype.

But I'm not sure if you really are seriously trying to tell me that iconic catchy shit doesn't matter in terms of popularity and virality and, hence, what the OP seems to regard as musical life.

Personally, I don't think future people will give a rats ass about any of our disposable music, to the degree that it's the soundtrack to a social gestalt vs a musical vision of some deranged genius who is likely not even in any charts, and Skinny Puppy was in charts. Face it, it was tough-guy tunes for teens, and we were teens and liked it. There's nothing musically great about Skinny Puppy nor Einsturzende what's their face, nor Ministry, as I just listened to Ministry the other day and it was total dreck with some mood attitude trying to pose all tough n stuff... 

nothing personal,  I had rivet-head credentials, that's on the pile with Dead Kennedy's for me (past glories, etc...) my endocrine system has aged, lol...

 

But anyway, the authors virality theory aside, I don't think this says anything about the VALIDITY of such music the OP excludes from his Noahs Ark of music.

For example, this  Blue Planet Corp track is a fucking corker that only gets going halfway through it's 10+ minutes!  There is not single iconic melody, but it's gorgeously melodic and harmonic etc.  I would say that the WHOLE is something greater than the sum of it's parts, and that's true for a lot of music.

 

 

but yes, I could care less about Vini Vici... that's just a psy-kick and bass with samples on top and some change ups. They even forgot to switch their Sesto Sento kick for a more "smup" Neelixy one...

[fluorosis]

Anyway, I thought that this thread had basically evolved to "Boris Blenn is great",  which I agree with.

The consensus appeared to be that the OP had done a hit-n-run and that no one had time for the video.

I confess that i watched it in it's entirety, however at 1.75x playback, as recommended, which counteracted the dramamine vocalization velocity.

I randomly wanted to also add "Blue Planet Corporation" as a total non-sequitur that has some pleasing songs, IMO. What was that first track on that one album ? Alidade?

or alternatively, it sounds like the album mix, possibly ripped from vinyl?

 

[fluorosis]

My apologies, I tend to obsess over a single track for 1-2 days and then get over it and get obsessed about something else, lol..

[astralprojection]

13 minutes ago, fluorosis said:

Anyway, I thought that this thread had basically evolved to "Boris Blenn is great"

that was like 2 posts man  relax. its a fairly dead forum and any discussion is good discussion!

[Padmapani]

On 7/13/2020 at 11:17 PM, fluorosis said:

?  as far as I can remember, for a techno track to be remixed outside of it's original release frame/promo campaign there's typically a signature melody...

which techno tracks that don't have signature melodies, riffs, hooks, of some kind get remixed a decade later?

I'll grant you that a vocal hook or rhyme or rap will suffice, like that insipid "they don't know what is what, they just strut, what the fuck" track...

 

I don't understand how this refutes the videos point that one needs something musically iconic as content for a remix.

ones' kick drum isn't sufficient material for a remix, or maybe I'm missing out on something major here?

 

the thing about remixes is a red herring imho. if a track still rocks the danceflor unlike most other and gets the new generation asking for the title of "that great track" 20-30 years later, even though the original obviously doesn't conform to modern production standards, that's more of a testimony to its iconic nature than any remixes. i know a few tracks from the 90s or early 00s that still get praise at freeparties newadays and tick those boxes, but wouldn't satify the criteria of you or the op for containing signature melodies or hooks.

[fluorosis]

9 minutes ago, Padmapani said:

 

the thing about remixes is a red herring imho. if a track still rocks the danceflor unlike most other and gets the new generation asking for the title of "that great track" 20-30 years later, even though the original obviously doesn't conform to modern production standards, that's more of a testimony to its iconic nature than any remixes. i know a few tracks from the 90s or early 00s that still get praise at freeparties newadays and tick those boxes, but wouldn't satify the criteria of you or the op for containing signature melodies or hooks.

Sure, that's why I said:

Quote

 

But anyway, the authors virality theory aside, I don't think this says anything about the VALIDITY of such music the OP excludes from his Noahs Ark of music.

For example, this  Blue Planet Corp track is a fucking corker that only gets going halfway through it's 10+ minutes!  There is not single iconic melody, but it's gorgeously melodic and harmonic etc.  I would say that the WHOLE is something greater than the sum of it's parts, and that's true for a lot of music.

 

That's distinct from the OP's point, which should be graspable and nothing to argue with, really, even if it means fuck-all about what music actually cranks yours or my sockets.

Why are fans of an obscure underground-ish genre surprised at hook-laden catchy-riff music going viral and being popular n stuff?
"bbut but my favorite music is valid!" Indeed it is. And Boris Blenn is now joined with Blue Planet Corp, can I get any more B's for 10 points anyone?

Born Slippy vs Bob Miles "Children" for virality, OP's point notwithstanding? It's a draw folks! Perhaps the former get's played only as the original, whereas the latter is likely ripe for a Vini Vici remix

[astralprojection]

is it just me or does noone understand what fluorosis is arguing about? we're just chatting about whatever, topic has been hashed out already nothing left to say, in case you have?