Do you think psytrance newcomers find old school goa outdated?

[Ormion]

So as a part of relistening my entire collection (yes I'm still doing that) I revisited Sandman-Witchcraft. The first thing that came to my mind is how much futuristic does it sound despite being 22 years old.

Coincidentally the latest cd I bought, the new Deck Wizards features a new Sandman track that unsurprisingly it's lame full on.

So I'm wondering if the newcomers in goa/psy, people who missed the old days find old school goa outdated, despite in some cases sounding more modern.

What do you think?

[recursion loop]

I'm not exactly a newcommer but many of 90's goa does sound dated to me due to very simplistic production - I understand it was the bleeding edge music technology back in the days but today it sounds too basic.

In terms of production my favourite period was 2006 (Protoculture - Circadians) to 2014 (E-Clip - Into The Void), when people were mostly using digital hardware synths like  Access Virus and Nordlead - these synths did have some charatcer the todays software mostly lacks - but the arrangement and mixing was done in a DAW and  wasn't limited by hardware sequencers and 8 channel mixers.

[Oopie]

Drop them 'Mahadeva' for proper education.

[technosomy]

3 hours ago, Oopie said:

Drop them 'Mahadeva' for proper education.

OMG that's gold!
 

[Bartzabel]

What's gold is the fact that this scene was built in the back of murderous ex-military Israelites &  has-been hippies abusing the seemingly liberal lifestyle afforded to them by a poverty stricken nation desperate for the money they brought, with not a care to the devastation this scene has caused to the people of Goa & India over the decades.
 

Furthermore misusing religious prayers & symbols with drug abused while claiming its for enlightenment when it's just an excuse to drop chemicals and become wankers.

This scene was and still is the ultimate in religious & culture theft for the abuse in the name of drug abuse. 
 

You're all delusional if you deny this. The majority of real Indian people absolutely despise what the scene in Goa did to them. But white folk always take what they want with little care for others and their cultures.

[Ormion]

13 hours ago, recursion loop said:

I'm not exactly a newcommer but many of 90's goa does sound dated to me due to very simplistic production - I understand it was the bleeding edge music technology back in the days but today it sounds too basic.

In terms of production my favourite period was 2006 (Protoculture - Circadians) to 2014 (E-Clip - Into The Void), when people were mostly using digital hardware synths like  Access Virus and Nordlead - these synths did have some charatcer the todays software mostly lacks - but the arrangement and mixing was done in a DAW and  wasn't limited by hardware sequencers and 8 channel mixers.

 What about the writing aspect instead of the production values like proper mastering, better overall sound etc?

For example would a newcomer find Pleiadians-IFO or Family Of Light outdated compared to a new Pleiadians track like this?

I can understand a very basic Goa track from 1994, I too find most of them outdated to be honest, but something like old Sandman for example sound pretty modern, production excluded.

But since my first love was old school Goa I'm obviously biased, that's why I'm curious.

[technosomy]

11 hours ago, Bartzabel said:

What's gold is the fact that this scene was built in the back of murderous ex-military Israelites &  has-been hippies abusing the seemingly liberal lifestyle afforded to them by a poverty stricken nation desperate for the money they brought, with not a care to the devastation this scene has caused to the people of Goa & India over the decades.
 

Furthermore misusing religious prayers & symbols with drug abused while claiming its for enlightenment when it's just an excuse to drop chemicals and become wankers.

This scene was and still is the ultimate in religious & culture theft for the abuse in the name of drug abuse. 
 

You're all delusional if you deny this. The majority of real Indian people absolutely despise what the scene in Goa did to them. But white folk always take what they want with little care for others and their cultures.

clearly you know nothing, and never been to goa so be gone with you

[astralprojection]

if you listen to Etnica - Mystical Appearance In Goa as a newcomer, im pretty certain you will think it sounds bland, empty, and kinda simple. Definitely outdated.

But at the same token, if you listen to Mahadeva like oopie mentioned or say Fluoro Neuro Sponge - both from the same year, I think noone can say it sounds outdated.

edit: or i mean ofc they can, but i wouldnt agree with them  

[astralprojection]

On 7/26/2020 at 1:10 PM, AstralSphinx said:

does Astral Projection and Hallucinogen play remastered versions of their classic works? Or have they stood the test of time relatively well, so they sound OK even by todays standards on the big sound systems of this era?

Correct, they are timeless

[fluorosis]

"The myth of progress"
It's just changing fashions. There's been no linear "development" of the musical genre and it's sub-genres. The attention span of a fruit fly leads to jumping around willy-nilly with no regard towards developing, deepening, enriching existing themes, but just wholesale replacement with a "new" equally vapid superficial "style".

People say they like this or that genre, rather than enjoying the work of a thoughtful artist across a spectrum of styles.

It's all a bit sad that way, actually. A bunch of template-copy-cats pretending that their new template supercedes intelligent thoughtful structures.

There's absolutely no reason to discount music of an entire decade due to 'stylistic' faddish "clothing", IMO

 

My guess is that some 90's psychedelic trance would sound rather alternative to many of the cookie-cutter modern sounds, especially to ears that never had heard it before.

[astralprojection]

1997 was a good year, Demention is probably the best one that year, but that spot is so busy it changes every time i think about it..

the quality in mixing and mastering is by todays standard still superb. Which is why id say this is timeless stuff here, and should transcend year/time/generation whatever.

 

[astralprojection]

That's awesome

I keep going back to gamma goblins 2 also, whenever I'm in need of a good journey. That track is truly timeless I think noone could refute that! I did really like cptn hooks sort of rendition of the gamma goblins style in that one track of his. As far as modern sound goes, it sounds really good! 

 

And yes hearing from someone else, preferably a newcomer, regarding the tracks us old heads say are timeless would be very interesting.

[Trunksan]

I think a lot of Goa, acid trance and early techno/electronica require a certain maturity and acquaintance with electronic music in order to be appreciated.

When I started going to gigs in the early 2000s, still a teenager, I preferred the "easier'/"more easily digestible" banging stuff like full-on and dark psy (what was dark then). With the years passing and growing (both in terms of age and music knowledge) my preferences changed. 
I think the same would apply to most people. More complex music requires a more complex/sophisticated brain.

[psychedelic chipmunk]

*clears throat*

\begin{rant}

So, these days, psytrance = something like vini vici or armin van buuren   Real talk, just search for "modern psytrance" - I can't distinguish between any of them, there's nothing unique, it's always the same shit. That shit ain't got nada to do with psy. I mean, if they can pay their bills and make ends meet, sure, whatever, more power to em, but that shit ain't for me. Of course old school goa trance sounds dated. It's not bland and monotonous with the same god damn "kick" and slight variation to melody, if any is present in the first place - most likely some cheesy uplifting synth, hear it so often. I'm sure there are nowadays a few legit artists making legit psy, but I'm sticking to what I know - that is goa from 90s and early 2000s. God forbid someone dares to openly criticise this clowning that's going on in the psy scene right now.

Funnily enough, I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they just called their generic crap something else and not Psytrance. It IS a semantics issue and it's not at the same time. You can't just make psy look bad like that.. you just can't!

\end{rant}

 

 

[Dolmot]

44 minutes ago, psychedelic chipmunk said:

\begin{rant}

Are you ranting in TeX? I appreciate that.

[psychedelic chipmunk]

1 hour ago, AstralSphinx said:

Well I agree but, it didn't connect really to the question of the threads topic. 

 "Do you think psytrance newcomers find old school goa outdated?"

 

Fair enough. My point is that newcomers are more likely to be exposed to the newer sound. Combined with mass mania, en masse, they likely will not like old school sound. Hence, the median response is "old school goa is outdated". I might have made some (cynical) leaps somewhere, hence I emphasised it's a rant ..I clearly feel very strongly about this topic

[technosomy]

[Multi-Media]

Well if they only know Armin, Vini Vici etc. which is now some kind of big thing I noticed (guess it has more attention then even back in the late 90ties when there was a good output of good music and bigger festivals started) then they will not recognize I guess that eg. Hallucinogen,MWN or BBC etc. is Psytrance at all. Well tradionell it is still goa anyway...but this would be the same with modern "industrial". Seems Metal for example there it is not so much the case even "new metal" could do nothing to old metal classix and even new metal people would recognize eg. Obituary as Deathmetal and Judas Priest as Heavy/Hardrock

[acid-brain]

As a relative youngling and goa newcomer who only discovered the genre slightly over 10 years ago, everything that was said above rings true.

Sandman - Witchcraft is an excellent choice for an album that sounds more fresh and engaging than other goa releases. Most of the other albums that caught my ear in a similar way are probably better classified as psy: Pigs In Space, Koxbox Dragon Tales, COP, late 90's X-Dream. A track like "Fairy in The Dragonforest" sounds like a more evolved version of classic goa trance, with much better rhythm section! Ultimately it leads to a debate into exactly where "old school goa" ends and psy begins, and nobody wants another one of those.

A lot of stuff that gets rave reviews here, took me years to understand because of the dated production. Early Juno Reactor, Etnica, Koxbox - Forever After (especially compared to Dragon Tales). Over time I've come to appreciate it all, it just took perseverance.

And then there's the stuff that just sounds "of it's time". While I enjoy MWNN or Power Source's tracks for instance, most of them really do sound like mid-90's trance hits. Which seems like a dumb thing to say, because that's exactly what they are, but compare to a track like Tandu's Alien Pump or Sandman's G-Force and there's no contest. Somehow, there's a small number of goa tracks that just stand out as electrifying today, and when I play them to my electronic music loving friends, they can't believe the date they were created.

[RTP]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:12 AM, recursion loop said:

I'm not exactly a newcommer but many of 90's goa does sound dated to me due to very simplistic production - I understand it was the bleeding edge music technology back in the days but today it sounds too basic.

On 7/26/2020 at 1:10 PM, AstralSphinx said:

(...) I do think the sound was quite messy when X-Dream played, if that was due to the old nature of the tracks on hand, or due to the sound guys/venue messing up, or a combination of both, or perhaps the artist/group tried to compensate with the EQ live, and didn't have good feedback from someone who could listen how it sounded to the crowd. Whatever the case I don't know, but it was very noticeable and distracting nonetheless.(...)

 

This. Both of you.

I am really sorry, but: in my opinion old tracks "do not stand a comparable chance" against new ones. That is because of several factors: loudness (new tracks are much louder), "sound-enhancing techniques" (that in reality make things all sound the same, because people are all using dame presets and filters), production tricks such as sidechaining (muting the rest of the frequencies when the kick (or other effect) comes for more "punch"), newer software versions and versions of audio drivers supporting a broader manipulation of the sound and certain tricks that weren't possible before but are standard now - and finally the whole equipment that artists use is different now and mostly consists of digital synths or controller devices, controlling the sound on a laptop.

Just look at Cubase how it changed over the years. And I don't think that even an old cubase file sounds the same in a new version - in fact, we (Skeletone ) had this ... I once brought a track along that we wrote in an old Cubase version ... and it sounded totally different in the new version, even though we essentially used the same instruments. There were even error messages concerning the 64 bit versions of some VSTs ... crazy!

On 7/26/2020 at 12:39 AM, Ormion said:

 What about the writing aspect instead of the production values like proper mastering, better overall sound etc?

Good point
There is a small "but" though: the writing of the old tracks has been "anchored" in my brain to the old sound, the old hardware and production techniques ... and that's something you can't get rid of even if you go the route and make it all modern. Or vice versa!

[astralprojection]

Hmm.. 

The "sound enhancing techniques" (im guessing you mean the various tools that were avaliable then vs what is avaliable now) used in the 90's was stuff like the eventide and TC electronic signal processors, that still to this day cannot be matched. The h3000 for example, that still goes for about 2500 euro, used. The newer h9000 version costs about 7000 euro.

And in the pop-world (which is the epitomy of modern music) engineers still use hardware from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s.

 

Sound cards have absolutely nothing to do with the progress of making music in software. You could technically make music with your eyes alone, without a sound card even plugged in. Sure, a better soundcard may mean you get to hear more details - thus making better decisions - but listening to some old hallucinogen stuff for example - that argument goes out the window. Even captain hook which is ultra modern (and considered fairly popular) sounds plastic fantastic. 192khz/24bit doesnt make it sound better.

People certainly don't use "the same presets and filters" whatever that even means. .

All the "sound tricks" (?) that's avaliable now, were avaliable then, and sounded better then. They had ad/da converters, transformers etc, to add to the sound signature. Something software users have to add to the signal path now, using creativity. So still playing catchup.

The one thing you're right about is that music is louder now. And sterally clean. 

 

So in short, there has only been negative progress generally speaking, except for loudness and the sterile modern sound of ultra cleanliness. Which certainly only makes the music lose soul and doesnt make it better. Does a surgically clean mix with a loudness of -6 lufs sound better than an organic mix with -10 lufs ? That is ofc subjective.

 

My whole point is that music production / music engineering has not become better in 30 years.

[RTP]

12 hours ago, astralprojection said:

My whole point is that music production / music engineering has not become better in 30 years.

It does not necessarily need to have become better. Only different.

You could read my post also in the direction that it has not improved, but worsened.

Even though I'd percieve it not as worse when a computer now can do stuff that you needed more equipment for years ago...

Thinking that a simple Cubase setup could replace one of those "Eventide" that you mentioned was - and probably will always be - impossible. Yet the former is the most used setup when it comes to producing psytrance nowadays. Does that reflect in the sound? Most definitely.

[astralprojection]

Yes, software has gotten exponentially better over the past decade or so. I wish they wouldnt make software synths so "clean" though; they should also emulate a converter and an output stage, inside the plugin.* Some synths sound bigger and bolder, than others - but just using those clean synths, with surgical linear phase eqs, working at the highest resolution possible - usually leaves the music sounding either soulless - or has that software "plastic" quality to it. Even in 2020. Ofc that can be remedied as discussed in that other HW vs SW thread. There are certainly ways of emulating pretty much ANY signal path you should desire; albeit pretty difficult sometimes.

I think of those old hardware units as cheat-codes; kinda. In that it may be an EQ, but it also has passive compression, distortion, filtering, noise- "mojo". And presumably it is also why they cost a small fortune to own one. Anyway, I hope I got my point across and my apologies for sounding negative, @RTPbut this is serious stuff for me ^^ 

 

*then again there are many digital synths that doesnt use a converter or output stage, like a Virus; that still sounds beefier than any SW synth I can think of. So there is likely still even more to it than just the signal path. Still some ways to go, for software synths to beat one of those, I think. 

  

14 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

 

Another aspect which I surely think has evolved, is the loudspeakers/studio monitors.

in what way would you say they have evolved? I think they probably have too - in that they can both be very accurate while also pleasant at the same time - something I suppose was much rarer back in the days. 

[RTP]

@astralprojection nah, I think your comment was valuable ... broadened my view. It in fact probably has been better in some cases with "old" equipment.
I'm drawing parallels to analog vs. digital / vinyl vs. CD in my head... --> How come that a vinyl, with an ever-so-slight crackle (and therefore actually "worse quality"), is more preferrable to my ears than a completely cracke-less CD or wave file?

And you have a point there with the "clean" sound. It may be too clean or "sterile". When it's too clean, it loses "human qualities", it loses its character to some extent.

The question that remains, is: would somebody who has "grown up" in that modern sound environment, find the old sound "outdated"?
So far we only have one answer and it rings true...