PsyTrance Bass Synthesis VST - Which do you like!?

[Prophecy99]

I am finally in the market to buy a nice VST Synth for the main purpose of making Bass (and of course anything else is a plus, like leads and atmospheres).   Right now I am leaning Serum , because of some artists i love dearly are using it, it's popularity, its sound, and its additional features besides bass. But there are so many to choose from and I would like to hear peoples opinions or experiences with them, maybe even examples?  Of course some artists I like I have no idea what they use for Bass so, I am trying to keep an open mind before I pick a path.  Posting examples of Psy Trance songs and what synth was used for bass would be very helpful. With the cost of these around $150 - $200+, i want to try to get it right the first time.  I have researched Psytrance synths on the web for a while, some references dating back so long. So i thought this thread may be a nice cohesive and current list for anyone considering a new vst synth for bass.  Is it easy to get bored with just one? Do some of you ever get additional ones because you want a new sounds and colors?   Right now I have been just using native synths inside my DAW and I am ready for something more ! Cost is not a deciding factor for me but to make this list more informative I added prices.

 

Here is list of Psytrance VST Synths that I found that are popular for Bass Synthesis.

 

Serum -$189

Sylenth1 - $164 +/-

Massive - $149

Hive 2 - $176 +/-

Bazille - $152 +/-

Zebra2 - $235 +/-

Spire - $189

Dune 3 - $168.87

 

Feel Free to suggest any I haven't discovered, and I can update the list. And I apologize if I didn't post any other obvious popular ones!

[recursion loop]

For bass I always use Sylenth + a processing chain that involves a multiband plugin, usually Saturn. 

This tutorial has helped me a lot

But people use Serum, Massive, Hive, Trillian, Logic stock synths and whatever else they have. The psybass synthesis is very simple, the key steps are the processing, resampling  and aligning the phase with the kick (the video above covers that).

 

Here's another video showing how to do similar bass in Serum

As for the examples of my basses, a couple of tracks with different bassline style, all Sylenth, processed as above

But I'm not really a pro yet, still learning and trying to improve my basslines. There are people round here who are much better producers than me and make awesome basses, hope they will contribute something too.

[recursion loop]

12 minutes ago, AstralSphinx said:

Regarding the phase align of the bass, that is only really a thing with modern plugins and some VA synthesizers like the Virus TI for example. It doesn't reallly apply with most old analog options.

If we talk about modern KbBB patterns, the phase relationships between the kick tail and the first bass note, at the point where they overlap, are very important. It's one of the things that define the groove.

Ofc you have to use a synth with osc phase retrigger or a sample for the bass, an analog synth or emulation with free running phase is useless for that.

This video corers that.

 

[astralprojection]

46 minutes ago, recursion loop said:

If we talk about modern KbBB patterns, the phase relationships between the kick tail and the first bass note, at the point where they overlap, are very important. It's one of the things that define the groove.

 

and hard to do by ear!  an oscilloscope is probably almost necessary.

besides the synths already mentioned i use retrologue alot, since im a cubase user, and it has a great analog-like sound with snappy filters and envelopes, and kinda sylenth1 like modulation options. + an arp. so im pretty happy with it =) 

[Padmapani]

14 minutes ago, astralprojection said:

and hard to do by ear!  an oscilloscope is probably almost necessary.

i prefer to do it by ear (only confirming afterwards with the oscilloscope).

with the oscilloscope it's easy to spot when it's totally out of phase, but the point where it sounds best is hard to find only with the oscilloscope (it's most often when kick and bass are mostly but not quite in phase) and depends on the exact kick and bass.

@topic

i prefer hive or zebra for basses. it's just so easy to get a good bass patch with hive.

[Prophecy99]

4 hours ago, recursion loop said:

For bass I always use Sylenth + a processing chain that involves a multiband plugin, usually Saturn. 

This tutorial has helped me a lot

But people use Serum, Massive, Hive, Trillian, Logic stock synths and whatever else they have. The psybass synthesis is very simple, the key steps are the processing, resampling  and aligning the phase with the kick (the video above covers that).

 

Here's another video showing how to do similar bass in Serum

As for the examples of my basses, a couple of tracks with different bassline style, all Sylenth, processed as above

But I'm not really a pro yet, still learning and trying to improve my basslines. There are people round here who are much better producers than me and make awesome basses, hope they will contribute something too.

I tried to multi quote but new to this forum format lol.  so I definately have watched that very helpful video from Bezonance ! super helpful.  And yes been using stock logic synths for now.  I found phase alignment was pretty nice through Xfer's LFO Tool, i was able to move it where ever it need and cut it (similar to side chain) in that tool.   and thanks for sharing your examples! def sound very solid (w extra focus on bass to stay on topic) and Safe Travels is very nice! =)

[Prophecy99]

4 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

I would add Dune 3 to that list as well. It's particularly good at Juno-106 type sub basses. I do like Spire a lot, but I've noticed it needs more layering of osc to get the bass equally fat compared to Dune 3. So I'm often returning to Dune when I feel the bass turns out unsatisfactory on Spire sometimes. Depends of course on the style/era you're aiming for. Spire for sure has a more modern Virus like edge.

I'm sure though any of those on your list will do the job, as long as you invest the needed time into learning it inside-out. And focus on it fully, instead of jumping around too much between different synths.  Another factor to consider is which of these plugins you like the soundsets for? Some undoubtedly has a more popular following and thus a greater selection of soundsets available, if you're feeling that you need some inspiration/starting points.

Thanks for the reference I will update! look forward to checking that out as well. and i appreciate your advice on learning and taking your time. i definitely agree with that and have already started that way in my productions!  Billy Cosmosis had a good video about that, if there are too many tools you can get lost in the options.

4 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

@recursion loop Regarding the phase align of the bass, that is only really a thing with modern plugins and some VA synthesizers like the Virus TI for example. It doesn't reallly apply with most old analog options. Unless you're gonna sample the analog synth and phase align the sample, but then I don't really see the point in using analog synthesizers in the first place.  Might as well get analog bass sample libraries then.

Sylenth1 was actually one of the first plugins I remember which gave the user so precise control over the phase. Prior to that it was mostly either osc sync/drift on or off. The Virus has the same degree of control over the phase aspect as well, so Sylenth1 probably took the idea from the Virus.

 

3 hours ago, recursion loop said:

If we talk about modern KbBB patterns, the phase relationships between the kick tail and the first bass note, at the point where they overlap, are very important. It's one of the things that define the groove.

Ofc you have to use a synth with osc phase retrigger or a sample for the bass, an analog synth or emulation with free running phase is useless for that.

This video corers that.

 

This video should be standard issue to anyone getting into psy production =) definately have watched that a few times =)

3 hours ago, astralprojection said:

and hard to do by ear!  an oscilloscope is probably almost necessary.

besides the synths already mentioned i use retrologue alot, since im a cubase user, and it has a great analog-like sound with snappy filters and envelopes, and kinda sylenth1 like modulation options. + an arp. so im pretty happy with it =) 

man ! cubase is really sounding really nice, see a lot of reputable guys using it. im on logic now, its been pretty sweet though.

2 hours ago, Padmapani said:

i prefer to do it by ear (only confirming afterwards with the oscilloscope).

with the oscilloscope it's easy to spot when it's totally out of phase, but the point where it sounds best is hard to find only with the oscilloscope (it's most often when kick and bass are mostly but not quite in phase) and depends on the exact kick and bass.

@topic

i prefer hive or zebra for basses. it's just so easy to get a good bass patch with hive.

interesting ! Hive2 does seem intriguing especially being a newer revamped version.

2 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

Yes indeed, but not everyone make full-on/prog/dark psy.  There is a market for retro gear after all, and for good reason. Not everything need to abide strictly to the rules set up within parts of the psy scene. I'm sure there are plenty of artists/tracks which are great and new which don't utilize this. For most I think this is like psytrance bass OCD, since it will "not sound good" without this trick on a sound system at a party, which I don't buy. It becomes a brain ghost, where you will think the track will suck without it.

Rules are boring, and tend to limit. It's not the phase of the bass that will make or break a track. At least not for the listener. This is strictly stuff only producers notice/care about. And quite frankly I don't even think I would notice if I listen at home or attend a party. And in the end the tracks are hopefully made for the listener out there?  Think about it, who attends these parties? Often teens with no knowledge whatsoever about production/phase aligned basses.

Another good example is this, have you ever read a review here on psynews or elsewhere, where the reviewer complains that a track didn't have a phase aligned bass? I sure haven't.

And for goa trance I can assure you that this phase aligned basses is certainly not an issue  Bunch of old analog synths out of tune, out of sync and phase misaligned. Heck I'll even say it's part of the goa sound lol. But yeah since this is a thread about psytrance bass, let's all just get phase aligned and agree. 

i like your real world point of view on the nitty gritty of phase! =)  hahaha yea lets agree it's a nice thing to do for fellow producers at least =) lol and i like ur point about rules as music is definately not supposed to have too too many rules, i look at it this way, (probably read it on production forums) you need to know the rules in order to break them =)

[Imba]

I got best results from this tutorial combining rest of his... you can easily achive quality as is on Nano Records!

 

 

 

[Padmapani]

2 hours ago, Prophecy99 said:

man ! cubase is really sounding really nice, see a lot of reputable guys using it. im on logic now, its been pretty sweet though.

interesting ! Hive2 does seem intriguing especially being a newer revamped version.

you should try alchemy for psy bass. it probably has as least as much flexibility as something like serum, but that on the other hand makes tweaking more time consuming. i still haven't got it quite right but already like the results more than what i get from "traditional" bass synths like es-1 and esm.

[recursion loop]

13 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

Yes indeed, but not everyone make full-on/prog/dark psy.  There is a market for retro gear after all, and for good reason. Not everything need to abide strictly to the rules set up within parts of the psy scene. I'm sure there are plenty of artists/tracks which are great and new which don't utilize this. For most I think this is like psytrance bass OCD, since it will "not sound good" without this trick on a sound system at a party, which I don't buy. It becomes a brain ghost, where you will think the track will suck without it.

 

When someone says "psytrance bass" i think about the typical KbBB patterns, so I linked the relevant tutorials. Ofc, different bassline styles will have their own techniques and tricks but the core principles are the more or less same, when you hear a groovy, fat and clean kick/bass combo it means that there are no frequency conflicts and the phases are in good order, even if the producer didn't think about that at all and just did what sounded best to him.

I guess these tricks with visualisation are more useful for beginners and semi-amateurs like me, seasoned producers probably don't need that as they already know what sounds best and how to do that, and also have invested enough into their mixing setup to be sure that they hear things right in the whole frequency spectrum.

 

@Prophecy99 Glad you like Safe Travels, thanks

[Prophecy99]

15 hours ago, Imba said:

I got best results from this tutorial combining rest of his... you can easily achive quality as is on Nano Records!

 

 

 

Thank you Sir ! i will definitely look at this one,  and don't believe I have seen it yet but have seen other E-Clip tutorials. It's Serum too =)  I think you said you mainly use Sylenth1 ?? 

Also I must thank you for your sample packs ! I have used them in all of my productions! You have been a great influence ! =) appreciate your posting here and sharing your knowledge ! I also have plenty of your tracks and am a huge suntrip fan.  

13 hours ago, Padmapani said:

you should try alchemy for psy bass. it probably has as least as much flexibility as something like serum, but that on the other hand makes tweaking more time consuming. i still haven't got it quite right but already like the results more than what i get from "traditional" bass synths like es-1 and esm.

I have used Alchemy ! and have found some solid bass from that, I need to look up what song I made that sounds really clean if it had bass from Alchemy or not.  I found some decent bass from Retro Synth as well, but it always was like is there better =)  yea i got one ok bass form es-1 but it needed more. and I gotta re look what esm was.  Alchemy is extreme in its settings, and I have spent hours in that thing looking for bass and teaking it's setting to make it more psy =)  I can post later what settings I went with in Alchemy if you want.

4 hours ago, recursion loop said:

When someone says "psytrance bass" i think about the typical KbBB patterns, so I linked the relevant tutorials. Ofc, different bassline styles will have their own techniques and tricks but the core principles are the more or less same, when you hear a groovy, fat and clean kick/bass combo it means that there are no frequency conflicts and the phases are in good order, even if the producer didn't think about that at all and just did what sounded best to him.

I guess these tricks with visualisation are more useful for beginners and semi-amateurs like me, seasoned producers probably don't need that as they already know what sounds best and how to do that, and also have invested enough into their mixing setup to be sure that they hear things right in the whole frequency spectrum.

 

@Prophecy99 Glad you like Safe Travels, thanks

yes! definately, and plan to listen and revist that track again soon as well.

[astralprojection]

if you really wanna buy a good synth, then imho id probably buy serum, cause you can draw/import/customize your wavetables to emulate pretty much any synth + signal path youd like and incorporate that onto the waveform itself. theres even (for example) jd-800 waveforms avaliable online and serum lets you import these, customize them, and make them to your liking; while also sounding great in the proces. that is really amazing to me, so to answer your question i would recommend serum  

 

[Prophecy99]

thanks! i have been leaning on that one since i started this debate!, but man there's so many options and they all sound/appear sweet. but yea wave tables , they seem like all the talk w serum. =)

and that sounds wild, taking wave forms right from the source to directly emulate the sound. sounds like it couldn't get much more accurate than that.

[Padmapani]

9 hours ago, Prophecy99 said:

I have used Alchemy ! and have found some solid bass from that, I need to look up what song I made that sounds really clean if it had bass from Alchemy or not.  I found some decent bass from Retro Synth as well, but it always was like is there better =)  yea i got one ok bass form es-1 but it needed more. and I gotta re look what esm was.  Alchemy is extreme in its settings, and I have spent hours in that thing looking for bass and teaking it's setting to make it more psy =)  I can post later what settings I went with in Alchemy if you want.

i've never been satisfied with retro synth for bass. in theory it should be fine but the envelopes just dont sound quite right. es-1 is decent for that early 00s fullon sound, but not quite up to modern standards, esm likewise.

this is the best bass i have come up with in alchemy up to now: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cprz5ayyobf00t4/Alchemy Bass 1.acp?dl=0 . (alchemy presets are damn hard to find. in contrast to most others, they go into ~/Music/Audio Music Apps/Plug-In Settings/Alchemy )

i'd be nice to hear what settings you have found to work in alchemy.

[astralprojection]

On 8/21/2020 at 6:35 PM, Prophecy99 said:

thanks! i have been leaning on that one since i started this debate!, but man there's so many options and they all sound/appear sweet. but yea wave tables , they seem like all the talk w serum. =)

and that sounds wild, taking wave forms right from the source to directly emulate the sound. sounds like it couldn't get much more accurate than that.

indeed, ive only really used single-cycle wavetables with these custom waveforms. ive no real use for a massive wavetable to cycle thru when i really just want a specific Saw sound. and drawing a waveform with the pencil is some of the most fun ive had in a while. and you learn pretty much immediately what part of the waveform "do what", and how to customize it exactly to what you want from the sound. im a little late to the game though, serum's been around a while now. 

 

dune 3 like astral mentioned is really fat sounding, has tons of modulation and fx. i feel Spire gets easily outclassed these days by either synthesis - or sound. but for leads i still use spire alot cause thats really where it shines. 303, virus/nord like, 101, etc, it really makes it extremely quick to dial in a lead sound you want. i dont think spire sounds great for psy basses, it doesnt have the filter + envelope action you really want.... imo..

 

serum i would go for a custom sound, where i want the waveform specific (like a psy bass; ive found this type of saw sounding really fat, its from a juno i believe):

i also like to draw in some distortions here and there. really game changer for me at least, when youre really specifically after a certain tone.

i.e:  which sounds alot like the above one but its slightly off centered and even fatter.

[Imba]

Since i discovered and learnt Serum i rarely use Sylenth1. It's so precise and good with million options

[Prophecy99]

On 8/21/2020 at 5:42 PM, Padmapani said:

i've never been satisfied with retro synth for bass. in theory it should be fine but the envelopes just dont sound quite right. es-1 is decent for that early 00s fullon sound, but not quite up to modern standards, esm likewise.

this is the best bass i have come up with in alchemy up to now: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cprz5ayyobf00t4/Alchemy Bass 1.acp?dl=0 . (alchemy presets are damn hard to find. in contrast to most others, they go into ~/Music/Audio Music Apps/Plug-In Settings/Alchemy )

i'd be nice to hear what settings you have found to work in alchemy.

yes sweet, i will let you know how that patch sounds on my end, let me do some digging and find my best existing Alchemy Bass Patch =) , i actually was messing with it over the weekend and have a decent one from that too. also i know what you mean with retro synth, theres just some little something that is off or that it needs. with that said I have a few songs with retro synth and they are pretty nice!

On 8/23/2020 at 5:11 AM, astralprojection said:

indeed, ive only really used single-cycle wavetables with these custom waveforms. ive no real use for a massive wavetable to cycle thru when i really just want a specific Saw sound. and drawing a waveform with the pencil is some of the most fun ive had in a while. and you learn pretty much immediately what part of the waveform "do what", and how to customize it exactly to what you want from the sound. im a little late to the game though, serum's been around a while now. 

 

dune 3 like astral mentioned is really fat sounding, has tons of modulation and fx. i feel Spire gets easily outclassed these days by either synthesis - or sound. but for leads i still use spire alot cause thats really where it shines. 303, virus/nord like, 101, etc, it really makes it extremely quick to dial in a lead sound you want. i dont think spire sounds great for psy basses, it doesnt have the filter + envelope action you really want.... imo..

 

serum i would go for a custom sound, where i want the waveform specific (like a psy bass; ive found this type of saw sounding really fat, its from a juno i believe):

i also like to draw in some distortions here and there. really game changer for me at least, when youre really specifically after a certain tone.

i.e:  which sounds alot like the above one but its slightly off centered and even fatter.

so you have both Serum and Spire, any more?? =) it must be fantastic having more than one heavy hitter synths.   and thanks for sharing your thoughts on the wave shapes. 

22 hours ago, Imba said:

Since i discovered and learnt Serum i rarely use Sylenth1. It's so precise and good with million options

!!! this is epic to hear =)

[Prophecy99]

thanks for that clarification, interesting find

[Imba]

Good stuff posted by Colin from OOOD in facebook some dayS ago and this is really important if you want to have great and clean lowend. I tried it last night and it worked pretty well for me!

 

"Having trouble getting your kick and sub phase relationship right? Try this.

1. Grab MFreeformphase + Voxengo Correlometer (both free)

2. Put Correlometer on your kick and set it's sidechain input to the sub. Set the primary to LEFT and the secondary to S LEFT (sidechain) in the plugin. Set the average time on the right to the length of a quarter note according to your project tempo (eg @ 120bpm, 1 quarter note = 500ms) - http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-bpmtempotime.htm

3. Put MFreeformphase on your sub as the last plugin in the chain and draw a straight line at the top of the graph so the phase is set at 360 degrees for all frequencies across the board.

4. Open the Correlometer and watch the graph as you adjust the depth knob holding ctrl (or cmd on Mac) in MFreeformphase. When you find a spot where the correlation stays in the above zero section the most, that's the sweet spot where your kick and sub have good phase coherence and no cancellation going on. There may be more than one sweet spot.
The beauty of this is you don't have to mess up your timing using delay OR mess up your subs attack by changing the waveform phase. Give it a try!"

 

 

 

 

[Imba]

Another amazing channel I follow and watch, here is superb bass tutorial series:

 

[Prophecy99]

^^^ @Imba  I am definitely going to try that as well and report back, thanks for sharing that info ! , it would be a really interesting comparison doing that on an existing project/song and see how different it really sounds. and  +1 on amazing channel - Dash aka Glitch is super helpful and has many videos ! He def has a dedicated serum video or two!

On 8/21/2020 at 5:42 PM, Padmapani said:

i've never been satisfied with retro synth for bass. in theory it should be fine but the envelopes just dont sound quite right. es-1 is decent for that early 00s fullon sound, but not quite up to modern standards, esm likewise.

this is the best bass i have come up with in alchemy up to now: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cprz5ayyobf00t4/Alchemy Bass 1.acp?dl=0 . (alchemy presets are damn hard to find. in contrast to most others, they go into ~/Music/Audio Music Apps/Plug-In Settings/Alchemy )

i'd be nice to hear what settings you have found to work in alchemy.

here are the alchemy presets I found in some of my projects, and I randomly added 1 after the names too lol.   https://www.dropbox.com/s/flhruaxaazc3w3z/Alchemy%20Presets.zip?dl=0

fair warning I have no idea how they will sound with a diff chain and diff effects plugins etc etc   I can send retro synth ones too but as we both said it sometimes (usually) needs more.

[Prophecy99]

just tried the MFreeformPhase + Correlometer combo, how did your correlometer look?  thank you Imba, for sharing Colin OOOD's tip.

heres a screen shot of best I could get on one quick test on an existing project, gonna try it on some other projects and experiment.

[recursion loop]

18 hours ago, AstralSphinx said:

It was no critique of the videos you linked  perhaps I came across as sounding more negative than I was. In the end I think all the things one can learn from are good, then one can cherry pick the different things that might fit ones personal style and mixing/production level. And yes good example, that sometimes people by ear gets things right. That should be the rule of thumb, does it sound good? That's defintely a good start then  hopefully atleast someone else will agree as well, then it's worth it. 

Btw @Prophecy99 I checked after this thread and atleast from what I can see so far (I could be wrong) but Dune 3 doesn't seem to feature the phase align setting as Sylenth1, Spire and others do. Could be a dealbreaker for some if that's the case.

Dune3 does have osc phase control. First you turn on the reset knob, then you go to the mod matrix and use const as the source and osc starting phase as the destination. The amount of this modulation will effectively be the osc starting phase position.

 

Sure, your ears should be the ultimate judge, all these trick are invented to help you, not to restrict you in any way. But since not everyone has the luxury of having a big perfectly treated room with top notch speakers and matched sub, many people do rely on spectrum and waveform analysers, reference tracks etc, it does help.

[recursion loop]

I'm not sure what was that "value 32" in Sylenth, but i think you could match the values in both with something like Smexoscope

[MikroMakro]

I am not the overseer of all psy trance kick and bass but I know a few bits and bobs. Just as well as every time I make a track I use different synths different processing and I enjoy that, at least 5 different bass synths (I like Bazzism and Kick2 equally for different reasons). There is no easy answer, there is no.... do X, Y and Z and then you have great kick and bass. (How many times did you follow the many tutorials and got to the end thinking it sounds nothing like the video !) Never think of this as bass alone or kick alone, both affect the character of the overlap, they are as one (and as far as phase goes the kick is dropping in pitch so phase will be aligned for what? one or 2 cycles ?). No one will see your oscilloscope or phase alignment tool on the dance floor or when they listen to your track. Visual tools are however useful, for myself personally as a second check or once thing start sounding just about right.

Phase is 1 parameter of many interdependent parameters, it is important, it stops odd psychoacoustic effects and inconsistent sound and cancellation of sub.

So 4-5 hours roughly to get something just about acceptable usually, that is synthesizing the kick and the bass line. Sometimes I will commit to audio and sometimes not, some synths do a better job than others in this regards.

I spend more time on the listening for a few days, thinking... "Has this invoked the spirit of the last 2 decades of this music ? " more than I look at an oscilloscope. I test a kick and bass (and then snare and hat) at least 3-5 times on a different day deliberating if I have the "feel and effect" right before I will build a track on top. And on more than one occasion I scrap the entire kick and bass and start again because I have not achieved my goal or feel I can do better or the effect I wanted was absent.

If kick and bass was just aligning phase up everyone's kick and bass would be great and probably sound the same right ? Clearly this is not the case.

In my experience perception of good kick and bass varies a fair bit between producers. If we all listed our top 3 kick and basses the variation would likely be all over the place... this alone makes nonsense of it being a purely technical exercise.

All the tools and techniques on YouTube etc. are very useful but in the end I think once you have all the techniques, in themselves a big job to absorb, you are still on your own in that final say so of .. if this what I want and is this good enough for me and my aspirations/goals.

If it is sounding right and working everywhere you play it on headphones and speakers you are golden.

And there is no shame in using a sample either, some people's idea of creativity and fun is not making their own kick and bass, no one sees your sampler or synth on the dance floor. Using synths is more of a personal technical challenge / feeling of satisfaction after release for me, so far no bass samples used.

Just like becoming good at anything in life, you learn, apply, test and experiment, you may make less than stellar kick and bass initially but slowly you refine and through multiple experiments it starts to come together more consistently and quickly because you evolve out errors in your methodology, you also get an aural memory for what good kick and bass is to you personally.