Harmony in Goa Trance (Any feedback)

[acid being]

In my teens I tried to make sort of techno tracks but they were incredibly primitive because I didn't understand music theory. I've just started to have another go at making music, aiming for something that is at least loosely overlapping the goa trance or psytrance genres. I doubt it will ever sound professional but it's for fun.

I'm using the Phrygian Dominant scale. For a few parts of the tracks I'm using chord progressions (Strictly speaking they're arpeggios with a second note played alongside). Anyway on the track I'm currently working on I made an extra pattern with all the chords shifted up around 4 semitones (Altering a couple of the chords to keep them in Phrygian Dominant). I've got some acid lines playing at the same time as this and now on the new pattern a few notes of the arpeggios are only 1 semitone away from the notes in the acid lines, so it's dissonant.

I can think of three different ways of dealing with this dissonance:

1. Leave it there. I'm not very comfortable with this because it will just sound like I've made a mistake.

2. Shift the arpeggios around or change the chords to match the acid lines.

3. Shift the pitch of the acid lines up at that point in the track, or otherwise change them so they stay in harmony with the new chords.

I've read some people saying that normally at least the bassline stays rooted in a Goa trance track and other people saying a lot of tracks don't even use chord progressions at all, but I still want to use them.

Basically my question is what's the norm in Goa trance, 1, 2 or 3?

(I get that I have the creative freedom to try any of them to just see what sounds best, but on the other hand I don't have the best musical ear and I just want to get an idea for how this is commonly dealt with in the genre.)

 

[MikroMakro]

As you rightly point out chords are not typical. I would make "chords" using 2 from notes in the scale usually.. so maybe you can strip back your chords if triads and remove any notes not in the scale/key you are working in. Good luck with it.

[acid being]

11 minutes ago, MikroMakro said:

As you rightly point out chords are not typical. I would make "chords" using 2 from notes in the scale usually.. so maybe you can strip back your chords if triads and remove any notes not in the scale/key you are working in. Good luck with it.

Thanks. All the notes are in the right key. It's just at this point in the track I'm playing a fixed bassline / acid lines and then playing two different versions of a synth arpeggio I wrote over the top. The second version of the arpeggio is supposed to be the same pattern but higher pitched. At the higher pitch I then end up with an E and F playing at the same time a few times (and in the same octave) because it's clashing with the fixed acid lines and bassline. Maybe I'm overthinking it but this is one of my first few goes at a layered harmony so I want to get the basics right.

[MikroMakro]

In which modify the notes that clash, though I don't see why if it is the same arp up an octave why they start to sound dissonant.

[acid being]

On 5/22/2023 at 9:18 PM, MikroMakro said:

In which modify the notes that clash, though I don't see why if it is the same arp up an octave why they start to sound dissonant.

I raised them by less than an octave, adjusting to keep them in the scale. I guess I can just adjust a couple of notes a bit more to fit the other parts that are playing. I'm more confident about it now, so thanks for your help.

In all honesty the clashing notes only play for a fraction of a second and I can't really hear any dischord. I think it helps that the acid lines aren't "pure" tones. I'm just a perfectionist!

[acid being]

Just listened to Darshan - Awakening and on the second track, Sun Probe, from about 4:40 it really sounds to me like there's a bassline shifting pitch to follow the acid lead, though it all blends together so well it's hard to be 100% sure.

Either way, it's a way to add a bit of interest to a track and surprises are good to have in this kind of music.

[Prana4ever]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:50 AM, Parasphere said:

Due to this thread I decided to play around a bit in logic this morning with a Nitzho-Goa track sketch with key changes, Spire arps and choir and synth chord pads: 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gb-mYa_nkpsyoEiwGbTBJTUcPKFiocyS/view?usp=sharing

Headphone mix, it's an half-made intro idea. Nothing stellar.  

 

Your link is dead unfortunately.

[MikroMakro]

Good detail in your response Parasphere. If you engineer your own kick and bass from synthesis it is many hours spent (even with some significant experience) to get 1 modern sounding ish kbbb working in 1 key note. Key changes are a new level of auditory challenge as you suggest. Even additive synthesis is no help here if your kick drum stays at the same pitch, there will still be phase shifts when you change bass note.

Unless you program the kick in additive synthesis as well and shift its pitch. This is no small engineering task.

The phase alignment is important to a degree as it gets you in a ball park.. but it does not take into account the kick and bass groove which is really important although admittedly both extremely miniscule changes and a  hugely finnickety process.

At one time I would have maybe looked (listened) to the Spirit Architect track's kbbb (sorry it's in my "that thing" thread) and thought it was a little off timing wise.. but the "effect" of it is amazing. I love the effect it has that the track is almost running away with itself... falling forwards, sounding faster than it is.. the energy it produces is amazing.

Psy kick and bass in modern style can be astonishingly good and also "brown or grey bass" which is a strange term I use for this more dull, lacking vibrancy, the short rat a tat tat notes (almost like 4 kicks in a row) with no colour/tone and blurred pitch. Very hard to explain when you get down to such minuscule detail, either it works for you or not I guess.

Chatting psy is fun for producers, ultimately a little lost in language at times at least the "art" part of it, the science / phase etc.) is easier to convey... but it is that is ? Just the science ? No, it's music and whilst it is invariably highly technical it has to connect with human ears, minds and bodies. Otherwise it is psy for what ? Robots ?

[MikroMakro]

I am not so sure about AI bringing much to the genre of psy trance, though I am no expert. Good psy trance is really hard work, I think many producers go for a few years and then give up. For a few reasons, technical frustration, lack of interest from the larger labels for I am sure a variety of reasons. Getting to the level where an artist has worked 20+ years is a serious commitment of life hours and actually a decision in life to pursue that one end. I respect that but it makes the genre rather impenetrable unless you are basically living it 24/7.

From my very first experiences in 1996 it felt like a closed loop, cliquey, cautious and a little elitist. I do not moan about this, there are some good reasons for it to be so.

I type psy trance into AI music engine it was pure garbage.

Unless AI filters out weak music it is going to just create things that are unusable. Not to mention many other technical factors, limited audio bandwidth, inability mix properly, after 10 years we can certainly argue it cannot even master music properly, nevermind produce and mix a ridiculously technical genre with many super picky sets of underground genre ears.

I would say AI psy trance is going nowhere. Maybe I am wrong though.

It will always have a place in my heart, but it's not my life. It is a part of it, that I can enjoy. Overall I view it very positively, it can be truly wonderful and we should look after those things as they appear to become less and less in this modern world.

[acid being]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:50 AM, Parasphere said:

Due to this thread I decided to play around a bit in logic this morning with a Nitzho-Goa track sketch with key changes, Spire arps and choir and synth chord pads.

Very nice. Give me 15 years and hopefully I'll be churning out sounds like that too! I like Casper as well. It's tricky working out what exactly makes that spooky feel.

On 5/29/2023 at 10:58 AM, Parasphere said:

Would be really interesting to hear a sample to get a feel for how this dissonance sounds.

Well, if you insist! Please bear in mind the following were just learning exercises - in fact my very first goes at trying to write layered harmonies.

They're actually made in Milkytracker using 8-bit samples from the late 90s. Once I'm comfortable writing the layers I'll move onto a DAW.

This is the arrangement I was originally talking about:

https://mega.nz/file/JWMCELpL#D8BqIcbF6woCBahO1LIzc5MuyOHoAvf398LwkZjzXMk

It's theoretically dissonant when the synth rises in pitch from about 00:25 because it gets within a semitone of the croaky acid line but as I said it doesn't really sound noticeable.

When you replace all the instruments with a piano sample, you can hear it clearly though (at the same time sounding like an almost totally different piece of music - I wasn't trying to write neo-classical! ):

https://mega.nz/file/sOU20CrB#Cwe9hwUsHsIWUtNk9L9CCje2-jdw97B6Pz7FbD9UE4s

You can hear the dissonance clearly at about 00:35 and 00:43.

 

Finally, for a bit of fun, below is my very first attempt at writing layers and I developed it quite a bit further, though the percussion is unfinished, it needs reverb, more effects, more everything...:

 

acid being - Phrygian Beginnings

 

I'd really appreciate any feedback, good or bad, on this early concept. I'd be interested if anyone likes how those layers fit together or if I should try something different next time.

 

The 8-bit instrument samples were borrowed from tracker files which were by Matrix Cubed (Mantis) Copyright Ra'anan de Jong 1997 and Symbiote - Phantasmagoria Copyright Samuel Cote 1997. I intend to replace these with my own sounds if I develop my ideas into tracks.

The 16-bit piano sample is by Berklee recorded for Richard Boulanger for use in the One Laptop per Child music library. See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sound_samples for details. It's released under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License.

[MikroMakro]

On 5/29/2023 at 11:58 AM, Parasphere said:

tuning etc.) Maybe the right type of incense is the most crucial detail? Just kidding. 

 

 

May I make a suggestion.. Nitiraj "The original Masala incense" is certainly my favourite. That is a top tip, it is even better than that old trusty "Satya Sai Nag Champa" which is not as nice as it used to be. It is a premium price but the Nitiraj scent is amazing... you should be able to find it a bit cheaper than this, it's worth trying to find. I found it for 3 packs for £12.00 somewhere which given how long it lasts is pretty good value. You can burn it for 2mins and extinguish and the beautiful floral scent is there for hours. Instant transportation to the sub continent.

This sent has been going since 1979, so you are lighting up a bit of nasal sensory history, it seems to be made in India under some agreement with a company based in Florida in the USA. It really is a cut above any other incense I have smelt.. and let's face it we like a bit of the old agarbhatti right ? We may as well smell the best one.

https://www.incense-man.co.uk/products/nitiraj-original-natural-masala-incense-sticks

 

 

[MikroMakro]

If you enjoy sweet incense, as opposed to the more woody / darker tones like Sandalwood/Tibetan then you are likely to really like Nitiraj. It is like Nag Champa classic but even nicer, more natural fragrance. Something changed with Nag Champa, it smells less good than before... cheapened at a guess as commodity prices increased. Of course be very careful to extinguish fully like any incense.

It is amazing how Nitiraj can totally make a different feeling in a space, it is top quality.

[acid being]

Well I guess when it comes to my beginner's attempts at composition it's a case of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." I get the message. I'll go back to school, metaphorically, and up my game next time.

[MikroMakro]

Sorry friend, no direspect intended.. the first time I tried the link it would not play. Download is not something some will readily do I suspect. So the first link played just now. You are right there is something not quite right here. The sound that is trying to be bass, that has no bass in it and it triggers at same time as kick which is unusual..The filtered..  "ewwwww.....ewwwwww....ewwwwww" sound does not seem to work with the melody quite, I think anyway,,, so yes there is dissonance and it does not sound right.

Actually....are you sure you have not de-tuned your sawtooth / supersaw lead a bit much? That might not be helping, it is a fine line to detune to give the Goa classic lead sound and well... just be out of tune.

That is one bad sounding piano by the way, more like a terrible harpsichord.

[acid being]

2 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

Sorry friend, no direspect intended.. the first time I tried the link it would not play. Download is not something some will readily do I suspect.

Thanks, I really appreciate you taking the time to listen. I'll probably set up a youtube account for the next time.

2 hours ago, MikroMakro said:

You are right there is something not quite right here. The sound that is trying to be bass, that has no bass in it and it triggers at same time as kick which is unusual..The filtered..  "ewwwww.....ewwwwww....ewwwwww" sound does not seem to work with the melody quite, I think anyway,,, so yes there is dissonance and it does not sound right.

Actually....are you sure you have not de-tuned your sawtooth / supersaw lead a bit much? That might not be helping, it is a fine line to detune to give the Goa classic lead sound and well... just be out of tune.

That is one bad sounding piano by the way, more like a terrible harpsichord.

I think part of the reason things are sounding out of tune is the same reason the piano sounds bad. There's no multisampling on these tracker tunes. It's just one sample being slowed down or sped up to alter the pitch.

I've borrowed most of these sounds from old tracker tunes so I can't guarantee they were even in tune with one another to begin with.

When I move onto a DAW I'll check the samples carefully before I start and where possible record or synthesize my own.

What about the third track. Do the ideas have any potential or is it too chaotic?

[MikroMakro]

For myself personally it is a little chaotic yes. There is a lot Goa trance which has a lot of layering going on, much more complex drums and considerably deep programming, yet sounds coherent I suggest you listen to some great music in the Goa Trance style and let that sound in for a while. Which is actually a really nice thing to do... rarely a waste of time to listen to new and good music you enjoy.

Just one suggestion try Cosmosis track Moonshine to see where I am coming from. This is his channel....

 

This is punchy, hypnotic, very psychedelic, super advanced before its time Goa Trance IMO. One of the best tracks of the genre for me.

Listen to the drum patterns, the movement, interesting lead rhythms, variations, sections, drop outs, arrangement, balance of freqencies of the mix and most important the overall combined feel of excitement and drive forwards that is created in the track.

Listen to 07:48 there is a rhythmic sound there that is quality, genius, trancey and borders on FM (I would guess it is a Nord Lead) it is constantly moving and twisting and giving some warped nice feeling, it sounds rich, Sometimes the moments of less are more but of course we have the entire track before it to expose that wonderful moment. That is favourite tracks all over, a single potential manifestation from an infinite set of possibilities that were locked down into one form infinite possibilities (Like quantum mechanics observation locks down due to observation itself). That is what makes a really good track magic for an individual.

One really good tip, if you add something and the track does not immediately sound better for it. Don't add it. If in doubt do nowt as my mum used to say. Try something else.

Another tip is to not use all notes in the scale just the ones that imply the correct feel, for the eastern sound. Sorry my musical theory is not deep enough to express what I hear easiest. So based melodies on interesting repetitions of 3-4 notes. Maybe anyway.. that is ultimately a job for us all to work out individually. And there are Goa melodies that use more notes..(Second Room X Dream springs to mind that is a wonderful archetypal Goa trance melody IMO)

Also totally amazing on every level...

 

Never let a bit of feedback discourage you either. This music is not easy to make whether you are making Goa style music or Psy trance. It takes a really long time to even get reasonably decent. Recall many producers have been doing this for 20 years or more... some probably near 30. It is great you are drawn to this music as many are. It is so technically challenging that many fall by the way side.(I think even myself)

I suspect what happens is the following... many great ideas are expressed for tracks if you have a little music talent, then as each track passes you become bogged down in technicality for which Psy Trance is known, especially the kick and bass wormhole... then by the time you have your technical chops together you have worn your musical ideas out and end up sounding rather similar to many competent but never standing out psy trance tracks. There are only so many Phrygian expressions. Which gives an understanding into why we have implied Phrygian melody in Psy which is overtaken by harmonic controls (filtering of harmonics in order to give a sense of movement even though it is the scale of harmonics - like Tibetan or Tuvan over tone singing for example - The harmonic series - this has a mysterious and spiritual sound of its own... (Close Encounters Spaceship melody uses this if I recall correctly) or you go the Sci-Fi sounds fx) to have something new to play with.