Proffesional Sound questions for Elysium Project or any othe

[Guest cosmic gopher]

I am working with an Audiophile 2496 sound card (24bit 96khz),

Roland DS-50A shielded biamped monitors,

a Pentium 3, 512mb sdram, 600mhtz, with windows 98.

There is more but not pertaining to my questions.

 

Now, I have read the topics about how Reason and Fruityloops are not proffesional music software and I agree with them for the most part. Neither program in my opinion is good enough quality to produce a full track clear enough for my sensitive ear.

 

I do think that both programs could be valuable tools for larger projects when used with other programs and "real" synthesizers.

 

My main question is in the numbers that are a bit confusing to me.

 

If I make a simple kick in Sound Forge and play it in Reason while running through Cubase I can make it very strong. But my ear tells me it is not strong enough. Sure I can make it louder, but that is not what I am aiming for.

 

Questions:

 

1) Are my sound card or monitors not powerfull enough to deliver that crystal clear sound I am aiming for?

 

2) I usually record files in 44,000 should I be recording in 96,000?

(I'm not sure if those #'s are correct but if you are recording on a computer you should know what I am talking about. Any light shed on the sound quality difference in these frequencies would be a great help)

 

3) Is this issue of clarity something I should be more concerned with in post production mastering?

 

4) The Nord Mod by Clavia I believe is a midi device that controls a vast computer program it comes with. I would think that the sound emitted from the Nord Mod comes entirely out of the sound card on the computer.

If this is the case what resources is the Nord Mod using that programs like Reason are not?

How can a Nord Mod get extreamly clear sound out of the same machine?

 

I don't own a Nord Mod, but figure if it uses the same machine that a program like resaon uses it sould be the same quality. Unless Reason is built to appeal more to the eye then the ear.

 

5) What are the numbers I should be focusing on? The frequencies supported with my soundcard or the program?

What is the industry standard?

 

6) What is it specificly that a Roldand 909 is outputting that Reason is not?

 

Slowly I'm getting some "real" equipment and learning as I go not really trying to produce music as much as learn how the equipment works. However my computer remains my main focus and I need to know about it compleatly before delving into synthesizers.

 

I think that my computer may be able to be configured (by way of bios) to produce clearer sounds and perhaps my sound card is not using it's maximum capability.

 

Perhaps it is my equipment is not up to par. I'm not so sure my monitors are all that great. Or I am overanalysing a simple kick sound, but honestly when I listen to Logic Bomb and forget all the other sounds that kick still sounds "stronger", crisper, cleaner.

 

I do not plan on buying a real roland 909 any time soon so any information on how to get this clarity out of a computer would be helpfull.

 

Thank you

 

PS

Elysium Project,

 

I hope our arguments / conversations in the past wont effect your help on this subject. I like to play devils advocate with people when they believe in something strongly just to bring up another point of view.

As stated previously I do respect your opinion and knowledge.

[Guest Drav]

You misunderstand tthe Nord Modular. The program is how you alter the routing and architecture of the synth. However the sound is still produced by the hardware box. The program merely tells the synth what to do. The easiest way i can describe it is like a soft synth (i.e you see the front end on the computer, instead of the front panel with knobs on the box) but the sound itself is created by the hardware. The program is just an interface, doesnt use the computer at all to create sounds. The rest is a bit over my head...i'll leave that to Elysium

[Guest Spindrift]

Ok, i'l grab the chance to offload some tech-knowledge then:

 

1)

Donno your speakers and your expectations on them.

2)

I normally use 44.1k. Going up to 96k requires more than double processing as well as disk transfer/space. If u normally run at less than 50%CPU and disk transfer when you work, then go 96k.

Off course make sure that all the audio you record and play is going straight 24bit between card and software.

This will not result in the cpu overhead, but will give you more headroom to play with before going to 16 bit at mastering, and avoids the need for dithering before final stage (opinions differ slightly on this subject, some claim that you also should dither between every bit reduction, i.e. going from audio engine of sequencer(32bit) to 24bit file as well).

3)

Mastering should at best not be needed if the production is top.

Most mastering engineers will not be able to do much about a ill defined base sound, or a bad kick. The one's mastering psytrance releases is normally not the most extreme mastering magicians either.

Nomally it's simply a matter of adjusting the levels across the spectrum, so u dont need to turn the eq and vol on your amp between each track

As the old saying in the business goes: You can't polish a turd....

.

4)

The Nord Modular contains it's own processors and software, and can be edited using a software editor on the PC. I don't know about the modular, but the early Nord Lead's was containing something a dx2/66mhz intel, running their software, so in theory the result should be the same, jsut porting the code to a vst shell. VST instruments is gennerally designed to use less CPU than many hardware varieties using specialised processors, so thats one reason they might be of lesser quality...

5)

If you try to stay 96k both card and software needs to be compatible of course, and preferrably any plug-in's you want to use on the signal as well...

If you mean the audio specifications, any software that will record 24bit 96k will make use of your card converters fully. The main figure I look on is the dynamic range of the converters....that will normally tell you the most about the quality...good 20bit converters have better dynamic range than a bad 24bit.

6)

An analouge signal path will affect the sound, creating subtle harmonies a varieties. The digitally generated sound will need a very complex algorythm to emulate all those nuances.

If you love dirty analougue sound, plug an external chain from your soft-synths to a analogue hardware dist, limiter, compressor or even a mixer channel before recording

 

With regards to using reason and orion etc...

There is sometimes a huge difference in different mixing algorythms, and many consumer product's trade off quality against CPU load to reach more customers.

 

My recommendation is get very little hardware (especially digital) and look at something like scope or protools instead.

 

Hope that was to any help

 

Spindrift

[Guest scalar]

man - its impossible to say why your kicks don't sound clear without hearing them first - its just a shot in the dark otherwise

 

can you send me a kick for analysis?

 

there are so many things that can go wrong, its impossible to tell, but in my experience, mastering will not help at all.

 

The sound creation is in the first place at fauult, and everything should be sitting pretty much perfectly in the mix anyways before you go near a mastering suite/package.

 

My shot in the dark would be to try giving your kick a discrete boost of maybe 2-3 db in the very high frequencies as this CAN give it some air and make it sit up more.

 

also set the filter envelope to just slighty slower than immeadiate, shifting frequencies can help draw the ear onto the kick.

 

I don't think that soundcard resolution is the problem, after all you are listening to logic bomb at 44,100.

 

Ummmm lastly, don't put on to much eq at all below 50hz without very nice monitors, as this will eat room in your mix, and quite often leads to the bass line muffling the kick drum.

 

Thats my knowledge sapped dry then, but really man, we need to hear the problem before we can help in a more precise way.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Scalar

[Guest EP Hater]

You're calling EP an expert?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA he just said an MS-20 could recreate all of the Sh-101's sounds. Expert my ass!

[Colin OOOD]

Kicks can often benefit from a cut (maybe -5 to -10 dB) around 300 Hz (1 oct-ish bandwidth) and another, narrower cut around 180 Hz. To manipulate the sub-bass element separately use a narrow cut/boost at around 60-90 Hz (check a spectrum analyser, eg FFT4VST, Spectralab or Waves PAZ Analyser to get the exact frequency). You can find the click element between 1K-3K, and it may be worth putting a steep hi-cut at around 5K.

 

As for MS20 vs SH101, if EP thinks he can get the same sounds out of an MS20 then this is probably because he DOES get the same sounds; stands to reason (IMHO) that people who say otherwise probably can't program synths as well as he can.

 

Colin

[Colin OOOD]

Oh yes... and compress the fuck out of it, too.

[Guest Spindrift]

I would guess that a lot of artists use kick's from sample CD's, many times tweaked a bit to fit with the track.

If it is a well produced sample CD it should be well compressed and eq'ed to start with, so if your monitors and ears isn't better than the producers of the sample, you might just end up with a worse result than you started if you start apllying heavy eq or comp.

I don't like using stock samples myself, so what i do is this:

Find a bunch of decent kick drums (download stomper if you need something to start with), and layer them out in the esx24 in logic.

I then open three instances of the sampler, and insert an eq on each track.

On track 1 insert a low-pass eq set to maybe 200-300hz and on track two use a low-pass and high-pass (or band pass) eq with hi pass freq set to 200-300, and low-pass to 700-1k.

On track 3 finally set a high pass to 700-1k.

Then experiment with different kick sounds in the different tracks, a sound with nice bass on track 1, nice mid on 2 and treble on 3

Put a compressor on your master out, and press bounce, then edit the files and load them back in to the sampler, and voila.....

[Guest coriolis]

quick tip:

load your kick into a sampler that can apply the following:

 

- a pitch and amp envelope

- a resonant filter envelope

 

with the pitch envelope, you can do a LOT with any kickdrum. raise or lower the pitch of the attack portion to put where you want, then raise or lower the body/boom of the kick to put that where you want.

 

use the amp envelope to adjust the initial attack and the longer duration's intensity (i.e. short / long / zappy / deep )

 

with an enveloped subtle resonant filter you can add a quickly moving resonance to pull out a freq. range or movement you want to accent

with the eq you highlight the parts you like and kill the parts you don't.

 

primarily, though, my advice is think of your kick in relation to the rest of your mix and production. you can the same kick and put in two different tracks and it can sound great in one and dead in the other.

 

coriolis